Required income to afford single-engine aircraft ownership?

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DMD3.

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DMD3.
For those who currently own their own plane, or have past experience in ownership, what would you consider the required annual income to be able to afford ownership for something like a Skyhawk, Cherokee, Grumman, or 2-seater RV for around $100k? This would include purchasing and then maintaining and flying the aircraft.

This is more of an opinionated topic, as a lot of factors could determine the answer, so give whatever would be your opinion. For example, the guy with a family of 4 kids & a stay-at-home wife would need a little higher income than a single guy or better yet married, dual income with no kids. Also, the person who makes very good money but has a big house, a motorhome, boat and a 6-figure pickup truck may not have much left to spare vs. someone who lives a rather frugal & mundane lifestyle other than aviation, just so they can afford it.

The amount you’ve saved is also important. People have posted that it’s best to pay cash and then have some money saved for an engine overhaul. If you have to finance, you’re probably too unwealthy to even consider ownership. And if you do finance, you’d need at least 15% to be considered for a loan (and a good credit score)

Lastly, the living costs in your area play a big role. $250k annually would probably definitely allow for ownership in my area, provided you lived modestly (no big fancy house with expensive toys as mentioned above), but $250k in California likely wouldn’t let you buy a home that a $60-70k earner could buy here. And the tie-down fees at some airports can cost more than personal hangars at other airports, n addition to fuel.

So give your opinion. What do you think the minimum income would be to consider aircraft ownership? I’m not asking anyone to say what their income is, just what they think they’d need to be an owner.
 
If I down sized my home, I could afford it on $70,000 a year.
 
You could build a two seater and power it with a VW motor (such as a Sonerai 2LS), fuel it with corn squeezins, fly it from the family farm, hangar it in the barn, and forgo the insurance and the costs wouldn't be too bad. :biggrin:

Seriously ... your question is too broad to give an answer to as there are so many variables ...
 
This is such a massive question that there's never any right answer. You'll get people from all walks of the financial spectrum responding.

For me, I needed to finance. I wanted the downpayment + enough for an overhaul saved, plus some for upgrades. That meant selling one of our 3 vehicles, which I have no regrets about.

EDIT: That said, looking at the payments and interests make me sick. We've re-prioritized to pay it off much sooner, saving money in the long run.
 
I think it's less about income and more about excess cash as in how much extra money do you have each month after all non aviation expenses are paid. This is still a tricky answer because everyone has different savings goals. It's a safe bet to assume it cost $1,000.00 per month to own and fly your average airplane when you factor in Hangar, Insurance, Gas, Oil, Annual and assuming you fly 2 hours a week on average. That's not really putting much aside for unexpected aviation expenses. Then you have to figure in what non budgeted expenses you have at home and money you should be saving for that, future purchases, vacation. All that considered I would say a minimum of $2,500.00 over what you would typically spend in a month is what's needed to responsibly own an airplane and still live a life if you paid cash for the plane. If not, add the monthly payment to the $2,500.00.
 
seems to me that if you boil down the question you'll probably get a more useful answer.... to something like this
"how much disposable income do you need...?"
(means how much income that is currently just going into the bank account or is otherwise just being wasted....after you pay your mortgage, your insurance, your taxes, your groceries and utilities, your entertainment, etc....)

and it seems like the answer pretty much boils down to
down payment/purchase price + loan payment + insurance+ storage + typical maintenance reserves + fuel, etc...
 
It’s more about discretionary cash flow than income, with the ability to absorb an unforecast $30K-$50K hit when the engine decides to come from together. For the average non-complex single, they can maintained on less than $10K/yr dependent on location.

If you’re not flying 100hr/year, partners help financially and maintenance wise as planes seem to stay healthier the more they fly.
 
This being aviation the answer is, of course, it depends.

My Grumman AA1A costs me a little less than $300 per month. I let a friend use it and he provides hangar space or it would be triple that.

On the other hand, My Seneca costs about $2,500 a month. But that's hard to tell exactly since I'm blowing the bank on upgrades and things.

I don't know how to translate that to income though. Everything else life calls for is a much bigger factor than airplanes.
 
There’s no right answer. Depends on your life goals, family, and other expenses. It’s probably a good idea to still be able to put some into savings each month, just in case.

That said, when there’s a will, there’s a way. You might find ways to cut your costs in other parts of your life which can then be used to fund your flying.

Or try a flying club.
 
DMD3. said:
For those who currently own their own plane, or have past experience in ownership, what would you consider the required annual income to be able to afford ownership for something like a Skyhawk, Cherokee, Grumman, or 2-seater RV for around $100k?
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I believe the generally-accepted formula is 1.5*Your AGI
 
TCABM said:
It’s more about discretionary cash flow than income, with the ability to absorb an unforecast $30K-$50K hit when the engine decides to come from together.
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This. What you do with your discretionary cash flow is the determining factor.
 
Skylane 182-S (2000 model year in very good condition)
Fuel- avg approx 14gph (cruise is a little lower ROP) @$6.55/gal x 100hrs= $9,170
Oil- 1qt every 9+ hrs @ $12= $120
Community Hangar- $400/mo (Vector just increased from $250-400/mo)
Insurance- $5300/year still student pilot with open pilot clause, $325K insured value
Databases- approx $800/year but can be a lot less if desired
maintenance- vacuum pump, plug changed $1050
1st annual- $1400 + new tires/tubes/brake pads= approx. $2600

I am about $23,000/year for my plane not worrying about budget. I could do it a little cheaper and my insurance should drop once I get my ticket punched.
 
My Maule cost me abut $3k a year to own (insurance, hangar, and maintenance) and 8.5 gph to fly. When the engine decided it was time for overhaul, it sat for a year while I put the funds together.

As long as I could adjust the rest of my budget to accommodate that, it was within my budget.
 
TCABM said:
It’s more about discretionary cash flow than income
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:yeahthat:

previously

www.pilotsofamerica.com

How did you decide how much plane to afford?

Preface: I spend a lot of time on financial forums. What this means is that we are inherently cheap or prudent but have reached a nice point of comfort such that work is no longer required. Yet, I am not sure how much I'd want to spend on a plane. I renewed my medical last week, hope to get...
www.pilotsofamerica.com www.pilotsofamerica.com

www.pilotsofamerica.com

Plane value vs. Personal Net Worth?

I know that's not an entirely polite question to ask, nor is it anyone's business, but my curiosity has been piqued by a few of the "what plane should I buy" and "can I afford...." threads. Folks finding out from lenders just how much the lender is willing to loan. Lots of, at least to me...
www.pilotsofamerica.com www.pilotsofamerica.com
 
In my example I did not put in an engine OH reserve but when I bought I was comfortable that if the engine took a total dump in the first month it would not be harmful to my financial situation.
 
Any airplane, whether a 2-seater or a Cessna 421, will eat all of the money you're willing to throw at it. There's a baseline, of course, which mostly amounts to hangar and insurance and the base annual inspection fee (not accounting for repairs). If you can cover that, plus some fuel, and you accept that there may be times the airplane has to sit while you accumulate some cash to pay for some serious repair, you can make it work. But ownership is 100% a black hole that can get away from you if you're not careful.
 
Tough question. It’s all about how much discretionary income you’re willing to dedicate to your hobbies. Having a boat and an airplane I’m not a good one to comment
 
A 100k Cessna / Piper, you’d need your monthly payment if you finance it, $1200/year for insurance, parking (I’m sure you can find a free tie-down), $2k for annual, how much for upgrades / repairs (up to you, many owners won’t want to fix stuff and use duct tape aka the cheap guys, some owners buy new if something has a scratch on it, aka spend every penny inbound). Up to you and your mechanic.

I wouldn’t want to put a 100k airplane in a tie-down outside though (so add hangar costs and utilities), you can definitely find an older airplane for closer to 50k (probably even 25k) or go the experimental / LSA route might have cheaper options. Insurance is not mandatory as well.

If you have to ask or if you have to finance, I’d get something cheaper to limit your exposure because there are always surprises. Your knowledge, skills and elbow grease can go a long way to saving money.
 
I argee with others, it is not about how much you make, it is how much you have to spend.

Taxes vary from state to state and location to location, so the same Gross Income is different Net. Also things like retirement and medical insurance costs.

Then you have your lodging, food, transportation, clothing costs.

Then you have the amount you put into savings for retirement or a rainy day.

And you have costs for things like vacations. With a plane, you might skip airfare, but hotels and food and entrance fees and such still exist.

Other hobbies, yours and others in the family.

What is left over can pay for the plane and associated costs. There are places you can save some money and places it is better to not try to save money (like deferring maintenance).

So, to start, figure out how much you have to spend.

Then figure out the costs for you. Hangar or tie down rent. Insurance. Cost of the plane if you finance. Ask about local shops and cost for annual inspection. How many hours do you thing you will fly, then multiple by fuel price. Oil changes every XX hours (will do them or pay a shop?). Are you going to set up an overhaul fund? If so figure your hourly cost for the overhaul. Then add in a fudge factor for things breaking or any upgrades you want to do. In my first year, I spend about the same on upgrades and nice things to do as I did on maintenance and consumibles (filters, oil, lubes, window cleaner, micro fiber towels).
 
Not including the cost of the airplane itself, you will need a minimum of $1500/mo to throw at the plane. More makes it more comfortable.
 
Too many variables when you phrase it in terms of annual income.
I think the question is better phrased by "how much extra money per month do you need to set aside for an airplane".
My answer would be close to Bill's 1500$ number. More if you want fancier planes that are hangared, maybe slightly less if you're OK with simpler plane in a tie-down.
The single most important thing is to make sure you get a good inspection so you know what you're buying, otherwise than $1500 number can become $15000 with one invoice from the shop.
 
robin ardoin said:
Skylane 182-S (2000 model year in very good condition)
Fuel- avg approx 14gph (cruise is a little lower ROP) @$6.55/gal x 100hrs= $9,170
Oil- 1qt every 9+ hrs @ $12= $120
Community Hangar- $400/mo (Vector just increased from $250-400/mo)
Insurance- $5300/year still student pilot with open pilot clause, $325K insured value
Databases- approx $800/year but can be a lot less if desired
maintenance- vacuum pump, plug changed $1050
1st annual- $1400 + new tires/tubes/brake pads= approx. $2600

I am about $23,000/year for my plane not worrying about budget. I could do it a little cheaper and my insurance should drop once I get my ticket punched.
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Now here’s someone with a lot of disposable income. I didn’t have that much, so bought my 1976 Cheetah in 1999 for $39,000. Owned for 13 years, did a top overhaul with new Lycoming cylinders, paint, and some smaller upgrades Along the way. Then sold in 2012 for $43000, and bought my Tiger for $44000. When we bought the Cheetah college was paid for for 2 kids, and house had 5 years left on mortgage. Plane was paid for with some cash and small equity loan paid off in 3 years.
 
I never quite felt the need for insurance. If you can fly your plane at a precise level, then there should be no fear of crashing or having a significant incident that could cause property or personal damage.

Where have the aviators gone that need they need a “crutch” to insure their incompetence?

Viper
 
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Required income to afford single-engine aircraft ownership?​

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Owning an Aircraft doesn't require anything but the purchase price. The question should be "How much does it cost to FLY my aircraft?"

Many retired people own aircraft with just a social security income. They just don't fly them much.

Under 25 hours/year - RENT.
25-75 hours/year - Partnership
Over 75 hours/year - look at all the previous post.:yeahthat:

If you fly over 100 hours/year it gets cheaper each hour. Aircraft are meant to fly and when they don't gremlins will cause you all kinds of expenses. The gremlins will tell your spouse that you don't need a plane. :nonod:
 
Benito_P said:
I never quite felt the need for insurance. If you can fly your plane at a precise level, then there should be no fear of crashing or having a significant incident that could cause property or personal damage.

Where have the aviators gone that need they need a “crutch” to insure their incompetence?

Viper
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They weren't operating at airports where a gust of wind, or a blown tire, or locked brake, can throw you into somebody else's $1,000,000 airplane. It doesn't have to be pilot incompetence.
 
My own personal litmus test to see if you can afford an airplane: can you pay cash?

It worked for me while I was still in school, and it works for me now. It mostly guarantees you have the discretionary income to not only buy the plane, but to pay the shockingly high bills that sometimes come with plane ownership.
 
When I bought my Grumman in 2017, my salary was $140k / yr. I paid $36,000 for the plane.

The two numbers have nothing to do with one another. I spent what I was comfortable spending on a hobby.
 
Country Flier said:
My own personal litmus test to see if you can afford an airplane: can you pay cash?

It worked for me while I was still in school, and it works for me now. It mostly guarantees you have the discretionary income to not only buy the plane, but to pay the shockingly high bills that sometimes come with plane ownership.
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Exactly! My mind set has always been, unless it appreciates or has a warranty I pay cash. Granted it makes sense to finance if you use it as a business tool, or a leaseback perhaps. If you have the $2,500 extra per month that most have agreed it takes to own one it shouldn't take you long to save enough to buy what you can afford.
 
Benito_P said:
…Where have the aviators gone that need they need a “crutch” to insure their incompetence?
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Not everyone can be as proficient or financially independent as you.

Our partnership insures to make us whole when somebody or something damages the plane. For example, the naked Mooney owner who’s parked aircraft was destroyed due to events behind his control.

Thread 'OSH - AIRCRAFT DOWN SOUTH OF ULTRALIGHT AREA' https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/osh-aircraft-down-south-of-ultralight-area.143857/

Our policy also will pay for someone to HURREVAC our plane if one of us can’t do it for any reason at all.
 
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Discretionary income is all that matters. What a person earns is irrelevant. It's what they have available to spend after meeting primary obligations.
 
Benito_P said:
I never quite felt the need for insurance.
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Partners. If a partner bins the plane, the rest of us will be made whole. And yes, they’re good pilots, but it just makes good sense for our situation.
 
Benito_P said:
I never quite felt the need for insurance. If you can fly your plane at a precise level, then there should be no fear of crashing or having a significant incident that could cause property or personal damage.

Where have the aviators gone that need they need a “crutch” to insure their incompetence?

Viper
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Troll
 
Benito_P said:
I never quite felt the need for insurance. If you can fly your plane at a precise level, then there should be no fear of crashing or having a significant incident that could cause property or personal damage.

Where have the aviators gone that need they need a “crutch” to insure their incompetence?

Viper
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You can be my ving man anytime, Wiper!
 
You can or cannot afford a plane on any income..

It's the old saying that goes like this.. "it's not how much you make, but how much you get to keep"

Lifestyle creep is a real thing
 
If you finance, you will be required to have insurance.

If you want lose the airplane and not take a hit, then if you don't have a loan, don't get hull insurance.

Liability insurance is a no brainer. You cannot control anything. Your engine quits and you land a field and hit and kill a prize bull. Do you want to pay that out of your pocket? And remember, the more assets you have, the bigger target you are.
 
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