Request

Doc Holliday said:
And your first post is nothing more than "one dude's opinion". ;)
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aren't u just brilliant. I though you were done here? go be annoying somewhere else please. it's what you do best.
 
My $.02

If the frequency isn't busy then go ahead and ask for what you're requesting in the first transmission.

I hate it when pilots say things like:

"tower Pony Zero One"
"Pony Zero One Tower"
"radio check"

"yourrrrrrrrr a jackass"

And this is after I've been talking to them for thirty minutes. If a minute goes by for some reason they think they have to get our attention again.
 
eman1200 said:
so you can use those extra words you saved to add "at X thousand feet', which you should know ATC is absolutely going to ask you anyways. another thing @Van Johnston should pay attention to in those videos...…….
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I do. That’s how I also know they are always going to ask my type aircraft, so I include that in my request
 
midlifeflyer said:
Why not Center, Bugsmasher 12345 off of KXXX airport requesting flight following to Podunk". Two more words and you've deleted an extra two communications.
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That makes sense, but I've found cold calling them with too much information just results in them asking for it again anyway.
 
I don't think it's a huge deal but I also wouldn't call up and say "Kennedy Approach, N1234S with a VFR request." I just give them my callsign and wait for a response. I think it's more courteous to a busy controller to leave out the "with a request" because:
-It's quicker
-They already know we have a request
-It's kinda pushy if they're busy and we're calling up to to say essentially "I know you're busy but I want something"

I say call with your callsign and let them get back to you when they can. Like I said, not a huge deal. I bet if we polled 100 controllers maybe only 10 would say they hate it but none would say they prefer it.
 
TommyG said:
So you are the all knowing of what sounds professional or not? There is no set in stone way to talk to ATC. This is one of the reasons students get all tongue twisted when talking to tower/ATC, they feel they have to sound professional. I teach them to just talk to tower/atc like they were talking to someone at the bar.
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The real issue is that different controllers have different desires. Some want just a call up, some want the whole shebang.

cowman said:
I've been told by instructors the way to call up for flight following is "Center, Bugsmasher 12345 off of KXXX airport with a request. ".

I've also been yelled at by controllers for doing that instead of just saying the request. I just say it now.

"Center, Bugsmasher 12345 off of KXXX airport requesting flight following" is in fact the same number of words.
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I've been "corrected" by controllers for the exact opposite behavior. I've tried the "Departure, Bugsmasher 12345" and "Departure, Bugsmasher 12345, 5 miles south of Podunk, 2 thousand, vfr to RichDunk Delta November Kilo". You just never know which controller is on. The one who says "I'm the one that does the talking here." or the one that says "So What? Why are you wasting my time? Next time give the full call."

I've developed a thick skin to these types of behaviors, but when I'm flying a friend for the first time it is a little embarrassing to be chastised over the radio.

Ryanb said:
There’s no one size fits all to this crap. If the controller is busy, I like to do a cold-call before babbling off my request, if they don’t seem to have a big workload going on, than just say your request on the first radio call to them. Worse case scenario is they ask you to repeat, cause they were on ‘landline’. ;)
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I agree. I also have been trying to say my call sign slower on the initial call up to give them time to hear it.

midlifeflyer said:
since my student pilot days I have usually said who I was, where I was and what I wanted on initial call. If after listening first, it appeared ATC was busy and I first needed to get their attention, I'd shorten it to just my model call sign.
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Van Johnston said:
I do. That’s how I also know they are always going to ask my type aircraft, so I include that in my request
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Me too, but most controllers don't know a Skylane from a Skyhawk. But then neither did I until I flew both.
 
cowman said:
That makes sense, but I've found cold calling them with too much information just results in them asking for it again anyway.
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Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There's a bit of judgment involved in picking the times it will work and don't expect to guess right all the time..
 
Justin M said:
Me too, but most controllers don't know a Skylane from a Skyhawk. But then neither did I until I flew both.
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Most of what they care about is speed related for anticipation and separation. I long ago stopped saying Warrior or Archer after I began to realize they were all just Cherokees.
 
Does no one follow the AIM anymore?...it is pretty clear and straightforward on this...

4.2.3
  1. Contact Procedures
    1. Initial Contact.
      1. The terms initial contact or initial callup means the first radio call you make to a given facility or the first call to a different controller or FSS specialist within a facility. Use the following format:
        1. Name of the facility being called;
        2. Your full aircraft identification
        3. When operating on an airport surface, state your position.
        4. The type of message to follow or your request if it is short
I am all for mastery of radio phraseology but seems that "Request", "VFR Request" or "Flight Following Request" all fit the bill of both "type of message" and "if it is short" to me....omitting what your message IS your call is incomplete according to the AIM.

Personally I use "Flight Following Request" but any or all of those above are certainly better than just blurring everything out on initial call up or just throwing out a call sign into the wind. I too have a lot of radio pet peeves...but I do not see anything wrong with this one.

If a controller has another preference, it is just that...PERSONAL PREFERENCE, not suggested AIM procedures. This was expressed at exact format SoCal TRACON likes to see during a TRCON tour.
 
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Shawn said:
Does no one follow the AIM anymore?...it is pretty clear and straightforward on this...

4.2.3
  1. Contact Procedures
    1. Initial Contact.
      1. The terms initial contact or initial callup means the first radio call you make to a given facility or the first call to a different controller or FSS specialist within a facility. Use the following format:
        1. Name of the facility being called;
        2. Your full aircraft identification
        3. When operating on an airport surface, state your position.
        4. The type of message to follow or your request if it is short
I am all for mastery of radio phraseology but seems that "Request", "VFR Request" or "Flight Following Request" all fit the bill of both "type of message" and "if it is short" to me....omitting what your message IS your call is incomplete according to the AIM.

Personally I use "Flight Following Request" but any or all of those above are certainly better than just blurring everything out on initial call up or just throwing out a call sign into the wind. I too have a lot of radio pet peeves...but I do not see anything wrong with this one.

If a controller has another preference, it is just that...PERSONAL PREFERENCE, not suggested AIM procedures. This was expressed at exact format SoCal TRACON likes to see during a TRCON tour.
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So then my question still stands.....what other “types of messages” are there besides “request” and why haven’t I ever heard it on the radio? Actually I mostly hear ‘request’ on YouTube.
 
eman1200 said:
So then my question still stands.....what other “types of messages” are there besides “request” and why haven’t I ever heard it on the radio? Actually I mostly hear ‘request’ on YouTube.
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Request denied :D

Isn't a PIREP a message that isn't a request?
Cessna 123 "Unable left turn 090, terrain" isn't a request, in my eyes
Repeating a clearance isn't a request, especially if ATC issued a clearance amendment.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Request denied :D

Isn't a PIREP a message that isn't a request?
Cessna 123 "Unable left turn 090, terrain" isn't a request, in my eyes
Repeating a clearance isn't a request, especially if ATC issued a clearance amendment.
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And none of these are typical for an INITIAL CALL, which is what’s being discussed.
 
midlifeflyer said:
"Flight following to Podunk" too long compared to "flight following request"?
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Totally appropriate IMO.

"uhhh...Norcal, Skyhwawk 12345 slant gulf at 3000 climbing 6,500 annnnnd about 12 miles south of XYZ an east of ABC VOR Flight Following request to Podunk via the highway corridor than Coastal Route transition...unless you have PIREPS for better altitude... " TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE on cold call up!

...or simply "request" then wait for ATC to respond when ready and have eman1200's head explode.
 
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Shawn said:
Totally appropriate IMO.

"uhhh...Norcal, Skyhwawk 12345 slant gulf at 3000 climbing 6,500 annnnnd about 12 miles south of XYZ an east of ABC VOR Flight Following request to Podunk via the highway corridor than Coastal Route transition...unless you have PIREPS for better altitude... " TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE on cold call up!

...or simply "request" then wait for ATC to respond when ready and have eman1200's head explode.
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You won't get an argument from me on the inappropriateness of that request on initial call. OTOH, I agree with eman's argument that the word "request" is unnecessary filler, but it won't make my head explode any more than "with you" does.
 
When it comes to tying up the airwaves, none of y'all hold a candle to the time I was circling over Point Loma trying to get a northbound Class B transition clearance from Lindbergh Tower. Seems some cowpoke ended up in their airspace coming from the east but had absolutely no idea where he was nor where he was going. About about 15 minutes they FINALLY got him pointed at the runway at KSAN and on short final he actually asked the tower to arrange a rental car for him.
 
First contact: "Hey ATC, guess where I am!"
Second contact: "Hey ATC, guess what I want!"
Third contact: " Oh, nevermind..."
 
Hmmmm... laws of primacy.

I was told years ago by my CFI (who was a career airline guy) that saying "VFR request" helps the controller identify if you are somebody that they need to get back to immediately in comparison to IFR traffic.


Since we are on the topic of the AIM, let's can the use of the words "on the go" along with "flash" and "fish finder."
 
k9medic said:
....I was told years ago by my CFI (who was a career airline guy) that saying "VFR request" helps the controller identify if you are somebody that they need to get back to immediately in comparison to IFR traffic.....
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Sounds like another reason not to say it.
 
Adding “VFR traffic advisories” or even “VFR request” is a minor addition as far as helping a controller with prioritization. It takes only a second to glance at your IFR uncontrolled airfield departure board to see if it’s one of them. That kinda narrows down what the pilot is calling for.

The most important thing, and it’s even not that important, is not rattling off your entire message on initial call. One time on the way to FQA for lunch I heard a student pilot pilot call to ATL center with a long initial. As she’s transmitting it, I’m saying to myself, he’s not gonna copy all of that. Sure enough, he came back with “Ok, Skylane student calling for flight following say again.” Just a few minutes after that, I heard a section of Marine Cobras call for flight following with a long, scratchy initial call. Think they called three times before ATL replied. Again, probably due to LoS comm restrictions this time, ATL was only hearing bits and pieces. So, two examples in one flight where long transmissions were useless.

Keep it short, and if a controller has a problem with just ID, VFR traffic advisories or yes, VFR request, they’ve got too much time on their hands.
 
luvflyin said:
Do you like have a bet on how many pages this is going to go?
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eh, it's only 2, but let's see, I've ****ed off everyone that uses the phrase, gotten under the skin of a coupl'a sensitive little sallies who aren't capable of ignoring a thread, ****ed of @Radar Contact of all people....but if I can get just one person to see the err of his ways (to no fault of his own, it's probably just one of those bad cfi habits that have been passed on for years), then my job is done here.
 
eman1200 said:
eh, it's only 2, but let's see, I've ****ed off everyone that uses the phrase, gotten under the skin of a coupl'a sensitive little sallies who aren't capable of ignoring a thread, ****ed of @Radar Contact of all people....but if I can get just one person to see the err of his ways (to no fault of his own, it's probably just one of those bad cfi habits that have been passed on for years), then my job is done here.
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Ok. I’ll quit saying it.
 
eman1200 said:
my request is that you please stop saying "request", "with request", or "vfr request" on your initial call up. it makes you sound unprofessional, almost student like, and immediately opens the door for them to deny you. "yes pretty please would you kindly give little old me flight following pretty please thank you please. if you don't mind."

examples taken directly from the AIM:

EXAMPLE−
1. “New York Radio, Mooney Three One One Echo.”
2. “Columbia Ground, Cessna Three One Six Zero Foxtrot, south ramp, I−F−R Memphis.”
3. “Miami Center, Baron Five Six Three Hotel, request V−F−R traffic advisories.”

notice how none of those have you saying "I'm about to ask you a request", followed by asking for your request.

are u ever going to call up ATC and just say hi? are u going to call them up and ask the score of a game? NO. you are almost always going to ask them for something. you know this and they know this. and the times you don't 'request' something, do you tell them your intentions first? like lets say you hear an ELT going off, do u call them up and say "ATC, moonanza 6969 with information"....then say "hi, yes, I hear an elt going off..." NO, u don't.

maybe it's just a psychological thing, where you immediately put doubt in their minds, therefore leaving it wide open for them to deny you. two examples.....let's say you're walking down the street and some stranger walks up to you and says "hey, can u do me a favor?" what's the first thing you're gonna think.....man what does this a-hole want, is he gonna ask for money? is he scamming me some how? but if the same dude walked up and right away said "hey, think u can help me lift this dead body into my trunk?" you'd be like sure, no prob. know what I'm saying?

it's not like you're less of a pilot for using the terminology, plenty of people got what they wanted by saying it, but it just sounds so silly. to me it's far worse than "ATITAPA". don't do it just cause u see a popular aviation youtuber doing it regularly....

who you're calling, tail #. BOOM, that's IT. then, assuming you know exactly what you want, tell them exactly what u want when they get back to you. sound like a pro, get your request fulfilled. I know Bob's gonna come back with "it doesn't matter", and I guess it doesn't...if u want to be a subpar pilot.

-eman1200, with request...
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You obviously don’t fly for a living and I don’t mean as a CFI. I mean as a professional jet pilot experiencing all of the ATC environments across the US.

When on a busy ARTCC freq and you need a new altitude or a heading for wx, you always check in with your call sign, altitude and “with request” so he/she can get back to you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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midlifeflyer said:
You mean his wife, the other air traffic controller in that quiet part of the ATC world, Chicago?
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And 310Pilot is also a former controller. So I’d say both have a solid knowledge of ATC phraseology.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Accidental double post. - deleted
 
PlasticCigar said:
For me, “radio check” usually means “I’m on flight following and I’m pretty sure you forgot about me because I haven’t heard from you in a long time and I’m usually handed off by now.” Is there a preferred way to communicate this?
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Depends on where you are. If you're with center and you haven't heard from them in a while just say "Center, you still there? I'm feeling lonely." If you're with a busy sector and feel you should have been handed off, just tell them you're switching to tower. Flight following is the lowest level of air traffic service and is on a workload permitting basis.

@eman1200 - I seriously doubt you cheesed off Kevin.
 
Fracpilot said:
You obviously don’t fly for a living and I don’t mean as a CFI. I mean as a professional jet pilot experiencing all of the ATC environments across the US.

When on a busy ARTCC freq and you need a new altitude or a heading for wx, you always check in with your call sign, altitude and “with request” so he/she can get back to you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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no I don't fly for a living but I'll point out yet again that I am not talking about calls when you are already on with atc, this is about the initial callup. but if I need an altitude change and I'm already on with ATC, I still would never say "atc, mooneyXYZ, request". I'd wait for my turn, then say "atc, mooneyXYZ at 6000, request 8,000", as I've done a gazillion times successfully.
 
eman1200 said:
no I don't fly for a living but I'll point out yet again that I am not talking about calls when you are already on with atc, this is about the initial callup. but if I need an altitude change and I'm already on with ATC, I still would never say "atc, mooneyXYZ, request". I'd wait for my turn, then say "atc, mooneyXYZ at 6000, request 8,000", as I've done a gazillion times successfully.
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If the frequency is busy, then there is no harm in checking in and saying request. This gives the controller time to prioritize.

“Memphis Center, BigBird 123 Flight Level 350 with request”.

And I’ve done that a few thousand times. ;)
 
My area app/dep is usually slow so I go right into it. NorCal grumman xxx off xxx to xxx. Never seem to have a problem. If busy I don’t.
 
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