Report when 7 miles south of VOR...

Hobobiker

Hobobiker

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Hobo
Flying back from IDI-IAG-IDI on my first XC flight as a newly-minted pilot, Erie approach hit me with a task I wasn't sure how to deal with. I was on flight following and had been passed from Buffalo, to Cleveland and then to Erie. Evidently Erie didn't have radar capabilities and had an aircraft descending from 8000 as I was flying south. Erie asked me to dial in the Jamestown VOR, which I did, and I reported that I was on the 90-degree radial from the VOR.

She then asked me to report when I was 7 miles south of the VOR, which was a new one on me. In my 60 hours of flying, I hadn't done this yet. All I could think to do was look at my GPS counting the miles down to my destination of IDI and when it decreased by seven miles I was going to give her a shout. She came back and said no need shortly thereafter and that the descending traffic was no longer an issue.

So my question is...was there an easy way to determine when I would be seven miles south of when I reported being on the 90-degree radial? I'll accept being flamed if I had a brain fart and should've known how, but even now this newbie doesn't know what he should have done differently...

Thanks everyone...
 
It is certainly one of the more unusual requests you'd hear on a VFR cross country flight, but as this story proves, it can happen.

Since Jamestown (JHW) is almost directly along a direct flight path from IAG-IDI, your method of estimating when you're 7 miles south of it using the GPS would be perfectly acceptable. In a case where you did not have a GPS available, and also did not have equipment that could tell you your distance from a VOR, you could estimate being 7 miles south of the VOR by doing a simple time en-route calculation on an E6B. You'd just have to figure out how long it would take to fly 7 miles at your current ground speed and use the answer to determine when you'll be 7 miles from the VOR.

My answer assumes you were flying direct from IAG to IDI.
 
GPS DME or regular DME in an older aircraft. You did fine by using the GPS. (DME is distance measuring equipment - you don't really get taught too much about using it until your instrument)
 
Time to Station = time for degrees or radials of change (seconds)/number of degrees changed

Distance to station= (TAS X Time to Station (minutes))/60.

Basically fly perpendicular to the 90 degree radial and time how long it takes to pass a given number of radials and do the math.
 
"Approach, bugsmasher 12345, cancel following request, I'll proceed own navigation, have a nice day."
 
Option 1: "Approach, Cessna 124, negative DME."
Option 2: Put the VOR in your handheld GPS and tell them when it counts up to 7.
Option 3: Look at your sectional and find something near your flight path about 7 miles south of the VOR (like that 2512 tower by the Allegheny Reservoir), then call when you pass it.

Since you're VFR, this isn't something requiring a certified exact answer -- "close" is close enough,
 
He has a GPS.

Learn how to use it beyond the direct-to button.

Insert JHW into the flight plan, activate the leg, and the GPS will count time and distance to the VOR.

Alternatively, open a sectional and notice the town of Little Valley, a railroad track, and a 2500 foot obstruction (TV tower?) are really close to 7 miles out on the 090 radial.
 
MAKG1 said:
Alternatively, open a sectional and notice the town of Little Valley, a railroad track, and a 2500 foot obstruction (TV tower?) are really close to 7 miles out on the 090 radial.
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I agree in concept, but not execution. Plot the course IDI-IAG. The OP was headed south, not east, and they asked the OP to report 7 miles south of the VOR, not 7 miles out the 090 radial.
 
On VFR Flight Following, Houston Approach asked me to fly "direct VOR, report 5 miles inbound"...was kinda shocked. Found the VOR on the sectional, dialed it into the GPS, and at 5-miles reported and got the "remain VFR, proceed on own navigation". Easy.
 
Ron Levy said:
Option 1: "Approach, Cessna 124, negative DME."
Option 2: Put the VOR in your handheld GPS and tell them when it counts up to 7.
Option 3: Look at your sectional and find something near your flight path about 7 miles south of the VOR (like that 2512 tower by the Allegheny Reservoir), then call when you pass it.

Since you're VFR, this isn't something requiring a certified exact answer -- "close" is close enough,
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:yes:
 
Ron Levy said:
I agree in concept, but not execution. Plot the course IDI-IAG. The OP was headed south, not east, and they asked the OP to report 7 miles south of the VOR, not 7 miles out the 090 radial.
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That's exactly it Ron. I even asked her if she wanted me to navigate over the VOR and then fly a radial to IDI. Her response was negative, and that she just wanted to know when I was seven miles south of the 90-degree.

Thanks for the input everyone. At least I know it wasn't a very simple thing that I blanked out on. As for the comment on learning more about the GPS, I absolutely agree. I use it for more than a simple Direct-To now, but as a CIO I like to learn and use technology to the best of its (and my) abilities.

Thanks again everyone...
 
Hobobiker said:
That's exactly it Ron. I even asked her if she wanted me to navigate over the VOR and then fly a radial to IDI. Her response was negative, and that she just wanted to know when I was seven miles south of the 90-degree.

Thanks for the input everyone. At least I know it wasn't a very simple thing that I blanked out on. As for the comment on learning more about the GPS, I absolutely agree. I use it for more than a simple Direct-To now, but as a CIO I like to learn and use technology to the best of its (and my) abilities.

Thanks again everyone...
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assuming you have a garmin gps use the nearest to function and there is the countdown....on my 530 it's the right large dial.
 
Option 1: check the sectional for someplace about 7nm from the VOR.

Option 2: GPS as stated

Option 3: do you have a DME? Does the VOR?

Option 4: Estimation. Close enough is prob ok. Look over your shoulder and guesstimate it.
 
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Without pulling the sectional and plotter...the easiest and quickest is to scroll the 430 to the "nearest" chapter then scroll over to the "VOR" page, select JHT from the list and hit the "direct to" to get your GPS distance readout...while maintaining your current heading of course.
 
Have ForeFlight?

In the big Edit Route Box (or smaller white box in upper corner), type UKW UKW/180R/7 to get ForeFlight to draw a line from the station (Bowie VOR in the example) to a spot 7nm out along the 180° radial.

If you rinsed/repeated the second part, but changed the angle of the radial and keeping the distance the same, you can eventually draw a DME arc

For the OP, if he had FF, and typed in just the station/radial/distance, he would have dropped a "pin" on his sectional to fly toward. And when FF showed him crossing it, report to ATC.
 
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AggieMike88 said:
Have ForeFlight?

In the big Edit Route Box (or smaller white box in upper corner), type UKW UKW/180R/7 to get ForeFlight to draw a line from the station (Bowie VOR in the example) to a spot 7nm out along the 180° radial.

If you rinsed/repeated the second part, but changed the angle of the radial and keeping the distance the same, you can eventually draw a DME arc

For the OP, if he had FF, and typed in just the station/radial/distance, he would have dropped a "pin" on his sectional to fly toward. And when FF showed him crossing it, report to ATC.
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That's a neat trick...maybe I should RTFM some time?
 
Clark1961 said:
That's a neat trick...maybe I should RTFM some time?
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:D :D The tip has actually been there from the beginning, but it was easy to overlook.

When you tap on the "Search Waypoint ID or route" box (white one in upper right corner) you get six examples of how to enter the search or route.

Included is the radial I showed you, plus how to input lat/long and how to do a direct to course. For the latter, type "D KAFW" and you'll be shown a route direct from current position to Alliance in Ft. Worth.

That would make it a snap to quickly show ATC's instruction of "Frankenkota 123, fly direct PODNK" by typing into that box "D PODNK"
 
1 nautical mile is one minute of latitude so you go over to the left or right side of the chart, put two fingers 7 tick marks apart, move your one finger to where you were when you crossed the radial and the other finger will mark 7 miles away.

Or, the diameter of the circle around the VOR is 10 miles so put one finger on the edge of the circle, and one 3/4 of the way to the other edge (half way between the center and outer edge) and you have about 7 miles without flipping the chart around.
 
I really like the range rings in Foreflight on my iPad. There is a 2 nm, 4 nm, and a 10 nm ring. Halfway between the 4 and 10 rings would be 7 nm.

On my last flight I was told to report when I was abeam a VOR. On my way to that point they asked where I was. I struggle with an answer, but got through it. After that I fiddled with the iPad until I found the range rings button. It would have made responding to that request a lot easier!

Jim
 
docmirror said:
"Approach, bugsmasher 12345, cancel following request, I'll proceed own navigation, have a nice day."
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This.

Any controller that makes such a request is either intentionally effing with you (doubtful) or is completely ignorant of how navigation works in a GA aircraft.

Either way, my response would be to chuckle, and say "Buh-bye!".

This reminds me of the moronic, worse-than useless "weather briefings" we used to receive from Flight Service while airborne.

(Government drone, spoken in a bored monotone) "There's a line of Level Three thunderstorms stretching three-five miles from the 097 radial on the Buttfoam VOR to 13 miles DME on the 220 radial from the Foambutt VOR. Use caution."

Meanwhile, you're 1800 miles from home, you've never heard of the Buttfoam VOR, and the FSS controller simply can't be bothered with using commonly known city names.

Thankfully, with on-board weather, we never have to interact with those people again, except preflight, when trying to ascertain the current location of the king.
 
Uuuuhm well I have a 20th Century brain in the 21st Century flight environment.
I would have automatically reached out and tapped the timer button on the clock (wind up, spring powered) as theother hand hit the transmit button to say "roger that 5 7 pop" then quickly made guess at my ground speed being roughly 2.5 miles a minute and gave her a jingle at the 3 minute mark.
But then I'm old, confused, and cranky (me and bader appparently)
The total dependence on the magic smoke inside of fancy electronics is causing a loss of the basics.
 
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Avare has either rings or side tape makes it easy to just figure an approximate distance.
 
Jay Honeck said:
This.Any controller that makes such a request is either intentionally effing with you (doubtful) or is completely ignorant of how navigation works in a GA aircraft.
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The controllers request sounded pretty reasonable to me. Report 7 miles from the VOR. Is it that hard to do:dunno:
 
Jay Honeck said:
This.

Any controller that makes such a request is either intentionally effing with you (doubtful) or is completely ignorant of how navigation works in a GA aircraft.

Either way, my response would be to chuckle, and say "Buh-bye!".

This reminds me of the moronic, worse-than useless "weather briefings" we used to receive from Flight Service while airborne.

(Government drone, spoken in a bored monotone) "There's a line of Level Three thunderstorms stretching three-five miles from the 097 radial on the Buttfoam VOR to 13 miles DME on the 220 radial from the Foambutt VOR. Use caution."

Meanwhile, you're 1800 miles from home, you've never heard of the Buttfoam VOR, and the FSS controller simply can't be bothered with using commonly known city names.

Thankfully, with on-board weather, we never have to interact with those people again, except preflight, when trying to ascertain the current location of the king.
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Well, my response was actually tongue in cheek, because once the 'instruction' to report X miles from Z VOR was issued, you really can't arbitrarily discontinue until released from said 'instruction'. ATC wants you where they want you, when they want you there and this has been covered well and truly to death on these boards with the upshot being that if they want to push it, you could be violated. I say this because the OP is a newly minted pilot, and I don't want to take a risk of getting him in trubble with the feds. Once issued, find a way to report your position to satisfy the 'instruction', then and only then can you cancel and resume own nav.

Yes, I have requested in-flight weather and gotten one of those type of briefings. I was approaching the Monarch pass in CO and after a few minutes of droning, I replied; 'what are the cloud and precipitation conditions at Monarch pass, and on a southwest heading approx 250 from Monarch? He said 'standby', and took a few minutes to get back to me, at which point I was already coming up on the ridge line and could generally see my way so the briefing was useless by then.
 
jordane93 said:
The controllers request sounded pretty reasonable to me. Report 7 miles from the VOR. Is it that hard to do:dunno:
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The problem is not the difficulty of the task, or whether it is accomplished by DR or fancy electrons. If ATC issues it, unless they actually say the word "request" it is a de-facto instruction, and you gotta go where they tell you to go. I guess you could reply; 'Bugsmasher 12345, unable. That is not my route of flight' and see what happens. Maybe they would do him a favor and kick him off the island, maybe they would issue the traffic alert and let him go, maybe they would get huffy and tell him to turn to xxx, and report when 30 miles away from zzz VOR.

I had to get into PHX B once, and they had me do a few circuits out east before getting into the box. I wasn't happy about it, but - hey, it's their air.
 
jordane93 said:
The controllers request sounded pretty reasonable to me. Report 7 miles from the VOR. Is it that hard to do:dunno:
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Exactly. It's a simple request. You either can comply or not. If the OP wasn't typed into the system, they have no idea what his equipment suffix is anyway.

Either say "unable, no DME" or bust out the GPS and give your position. Not hard.
 
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docmirror said:
Well, my response was actually tongue in cheek, because once the 'instruction' to report X miles from Z VOR was issued, you really can't arbitrarily discontinue until released from said 'instruction'. ATC wants you where they want you, when they want you there and this has been covered well and truly to death on these boards with the upshot being that if they want to push it, you could be violated. I say this because the OP is a newly minted pilot, and I don't want to take a risk of getting him in trubble with the feds. Once issued, find a way to report your position to satisfy the 'instruction', then and only then can you cancel and resume own nav.
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Has anyone ever been violated for terminating flight following with a pending "report X" request from ATC? The need to comply with the instruction is contingent upon the pilot's continuation of flight following, which is not required. A courteous pilot would provide his current position at the time he requests to terminate flight following, but that is also not required.

The pilot was also never required to alter his course with this request, and therefore he is already flying under his "own navigation," thus there is no need to "resume own navigation," since he never stopped doing so.
 
So why would one even terminate FF for a simple request? Listen, this isn't some unusual request or the controller messing with the OP. If he wasn't put into the system, they have no idea what capability the OP has. Since he had VOR capability, perhaps the controller thought the OP had DME as well. Perhaps the controller thought the OP would use some other method to report 7 miles (sectional / GPS). He's VFR, they're not looking for an exact report. Let's stop making this more complicated than what it is.
 
aviator430 said:
Has anyone ever been violated for terminating flight following with a pending "report X" request from ATC? The need to comply with the instruction is contingent upon the pilot's continuation of flight following, which is not required. A courteous pilot would provide his current position at the time he requests to terminate flight following, but that is also not required.

The pilot was also never required to alter his course with this request, and therefore he is already flying under his "own navigation," thus there is no need to "resume own navigation," since he never stopped doing so.
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I don't know, and I'm not the right guy to ask as I rarely have my radio on, and almost never chat with the good folks at ATC.

As far as course altering, I again didn't look at the route, or whether it included a waypoint instructed by ATC, but I would presume that in this one case, ATC just wanted to know where the plane was at point in time to coordinate separation. At least that's what it sounds like to me, and if it's along the route of flight, hey - no prob, I'll be happy to report when reaching.

But, if it required a course change, then the pilot is most definitely on the hook to maintain said heading and report when ATC tells you to report. Frex - the pilot may have been flying along, on his own nav, and happened to see a beautifully restored John Deere series A hi crop with his field glasses and wanted to take a mosey over to the left and have a better look. He cannot arbitrarily take up a different heading to the east, and fly around the tractor for a while, and just let ATC stew, waiting, waiting until you get back on some course and make it to that reporting point. They are expecting you to maintain course and report what they told you to report. I guess technically, in this case he wasn't directed to go direct, or given a course to follow so he was free on his own nav, and could have wandered about as he saw fit, and report at some obscure time in the future, but I suspect strongly that after 5 minutes, if the OP hasn't reported 7 miles south of xxx VOR, he would be getting a call, asking what's going on, where are you, and say intentions or something along those lines.

The key here is once the 'instruction' is given, you gotta comply(at some point) without telling them to get bent.

<edited for clarity, reduced a redundancy.>
 
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Velocity173 said:
So why would one even terminate FF for a simple request? Listen, this isn't some unusual request or the controller messing with the OP. If he wasn't put into the system, they have no idea what capability the OP has. Since he had VOR capability, perhaps the controller thought the OP had DME as well. Perhaps the controller thought the OP would use some other method to report 7 miles (sectional / GPS). He's VFR, they're not looking for an exact report. Let's stop making this more complicated than what it is.
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It was a stupid request.

The OP is at a strange airport, VFR, using flight following. Sure, its not impossible to do, but finding a VOR in your GPS is going to take a fair amount of head-down time to accomplish. Figuring your distance from such an arbitrary target, at a strange airport is un-fun, and just plain silly in the GPS era.

And it's not just an inconvenience, although it certainly is that. Its going to take a minute or two to accomplish, maybe longer, which is certainly more time than the controller expects or wants. All while maneuvering near an airport.

A more helpful controller would have asked him to report his distance from the airport.
 
Jay Honeck said:
A more helpful controller would have asked him to report his distance from the airport.
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How is that different? He's not anywhere near his destination, so the relevant airport will also be a point not in his flight plan. Except now he has to enter four characters instead of three.

The real problem is electronics fixation. This is a really easy problem on paper. Like trying to make a flight plan on a fancy G1000 to an airport you can see out the window.
 
MAKG1 said:
How is that different? He's not anywhere near his destination, so the relevant airport will also be a point not in his flight plan. Except now he has to enter four characters instead of three.

The real problem is electronics fixation. This is a really easy problem on paper. Like trying to make a flight plan on a fancy G1000 to an airport you can see out the window.
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Yup, well said. Old pilots know that the coordinate ring around the VOR is 10 miles in radius, so when you get around 3/4 the way on your fishfinder, you give em a call. Easy-peasy.
 
MAKG1 said:
How is that different? He's not anywhere near his destination, so the relevant airport will also be a point not in his flight plan. Except now he has to enter four characters instead of three.

The real problem is electronics fixation. This is a really easy problem on paper. Like trying to make a flight plan on a fancy G1000 to an airport you can see out the window.
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The airports are visible on his moving map GPS. In mine, you touch it, and bam -- you can see your distance in a key stroke.

Actually, I just jumped out of here and into Garmin Pilot, and verified that I can do the same thing with VORs -- whuddya know? I haven't used a VOR in so many years, I didn't even realize that was possible.

Not that I have any use for this newfound skill. Well, I suppose I could end up talking to this same controller someday... :)

But, of course, your odds of knowing where the Buttfoam VOR is to touch on your moving-map sectional, in an unfamiliar area, are close to zero -- so the exercise is pointless. My response would still be "Unable.".

Heck, those of us with new panels don't even have VORs, any more than we have DME, ADF, or Superhomers. It's a brave, new world.
 
I certainly appreciate all the comments and feedback everyone, and didn't mean to cause such a stir. I'll admit, it took me a few seconds to find the VOR on my sectional, dial it in for her, and report the 90-degree radial I was on. When she asked for the 7-mile south thing, I decided to watch the GPS count down the miles to my destination to IDI, which I did only because it would be more accurate than me doing the 3.5 minute thing (which, btw, was my first thought after just coming from my checkride and the diversion practice). Well, thanks to the discussion here I now learned (or was reminded of) a few other ways to comply with the request.

Again, thanks for helping a newbie pilot. Surely didn't think the question would cause this much discussion...
 
Jay Honeck said:
It was a stupid request.

The OP is at a strange airport, VFR, using flight following. Sure, its not impossible to do, but finding a VOR in your GPS is going to take a fair amount of head-down time to accomplish. Figuring your distance from such an arbitrary target, at a strange airport is un-fun, and just plain silly in the GPS era.

And it's not just an inconvenience, although it certainly is that. Its going to take a minute or two to accomplish, maybe longer, which is certainly more time than the controller expects or wants. All while maneuvering near an airport.

A more helpful controller would have asked him to report his distance from the airport.
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It's not a stupid request. You're making the request out to be some mandatory thing and if the OP doesn't do they'll get in trouble. There are many tricks in the controller's bag and if the pilot can comply because of equipment limitations or lack of knowledge on equipment capabilities (VOR on a GPS), then they'll find some other way to have the OP report. If a pilot can't be inconvienced to look up a VOR on a GPS or on their sectional or whatever app they're running, then I'd question their ability to navigate.

It's just a simple request, not some FAA, we're out to get you scenario. Just trying to do their jobs.
 
Velocity173 said:
It's just a simple request, not some FAA, we're out to get you scenario. Just trying to do their jobs.
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If a request as you say, is the pilot free to ignore the reporting, and go do some acro, spin training, tractor hunting? Or alternately - is it ok to tell ATC to cancel FF?
 
Jay Honeck said:
It was a stupid request.

The OP is at a strange airport, VFR, using flight following. Sure, its not impossible to do, but finding a VOR in your GPS is going to take a fair amount of head-down time to accomplish. Figuring your distance from such an arbitrary target, at a strange airport is un-fun, and just plain silly in the GPS era.

And it's not just an inconvenience, although it certainly is that. Its going to take a minute or two to accomplish, maybe longer, which is certainly more time than the controller expects or wants. All while maneuvering near an airport.

A more helpful controller would have asked him to report his distance from the airport.
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I'm sorry but if you can't give a simple position report please don't fly. Who cares if the airport is unfamiliar? As a Private pilot, you should be able to navigate, communicate, and fly. If a requested position report is an inconvenience, I'd love to know how you would handle an emergency.
 
jordane93 said:
I'm sorry but if you can't give a simple position report please don't fly. Who cares if the airport is unfamiliar? As a Private pilot, you should be able to navigate, communicate, and fly. If a requested position report is an inconvenience, I'd love to know how you would handle an emergency.
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This isn't a question of whether it COULD be done, it's a question of whether it SHOULD be done. Heck, I can figure and report my position, accurate to within three meters of any random point on earth, given a few minutes -- but there's no point in it.

The controller could have, and should have, requested a position report with modern navigational tools in mind. Requesting the distance from some random VOR is silly, in today's airspace.
 
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