Replace Bendix/King KLN 89B

[plongson]

We've got a KLN 89B that throws a boot error. It's older than dirt and we need to replace it, not wanting to chop up the dash, we need something that will fit in the hole.

In the opinion of this hallowed community, what would you choose as a NAV/COM replacement. New is nice but we're not adverse to a good used pull out unit. Is there a NAV/COM that can be recommended...something that we can search for? We're obviously new pilots and owners of this plane (my son and I) and value the knowledge found here.

 

[Doug Reid]

I would consider a Garmin GPS175. Same size, touch screen, talks to Garmin Pilot and ForeFlight.

 

[Ryan Klems]

Like Doug suggested, the Garmin 2" navigators are a great replacement option for that unit. There are 3 varieties, the GPS175 which is just the WAAS GPS navigator, the GNC355 which is a WAAS Navigator + COM and the GNX375 which is a WAAS GPS Navigator and 1090ES ADS-B in/out transponder.

 

[plongson]

Man, those are sweet, but only NAV and no COMM. Not sure if we're asking too much or even if it's available...to get both in the same size package.

You posted faster than I got my reply in...We will look at those options!!

 

[asicer]

In the opinion of this hallowed community, what would you choose as a NAV/COM replacement.

Let me get this straight, you want to remove a GPS and replace it with a VOR/LOC/COM radio? As of today, there is only one radio of that type being produced: the GNC255. Otherwise, you could go with a used SL30 if you can find it (they're somewhat rare these days).

If you don't mind separate boxes, you could install a VAL INS429 NAV/indicator alongside a COM radio like the Garmin GTR225 or Trig TY series. The VAL is non-TSO so you'd need you AP/IA to be willing to sign off on it.

But if you want to replace your old GPS with a GPS/COM, then the GNC355 fits the bill.

However, all of those options except the VAL you would need a new indicator unless the one currently connected to the KLN89b has a glide needle.

 

[unsafervguy]

go with the gnc355 com/gps

 

[Hank195]

There are some good recommendations above (esp the new garmin gps/comm). However, since this is an Internet forum it’s important to answer questions you didn’t ask (and likely don’t care about).
If you are just using the KLN-89B for fair weather flying and you would rather spend the money on avgas instead of shinny cool new avionics, you could consider repairing the 89B. There is a high probability the start up errors may be caused by a failed internal battery. The battery holds up the unit’s internal memory; it is a lithium primary cell about the size of a AA battery that is commonly available from electronic supply houses for less than $10. The battery is soldered in but easily replaceable. Since the unit is basically worthless now, there’s not much to lose trying. A battery replacement resolved a similar KLN- 89B problem for me a number of years ago.
https://www.csobeech.com/89B-MaintenencePages.html

 

[WDD]

GTN 650

Yes, you have to cut the dash
Yes, it will cost more
Why?

You’ll get a readable screen size, GPS, a Com radio, and a Nav radio for the ILS approaches, VOR whatnot, etc.

You’ll be ready for IFR.

 

[plongson]

DAMN!! That's a good idea about the battery! Guess what we're going to try...
THANKS for that heads up. I'll let you know how it works out.

 

[Jim K]

I THINK (as opposed to know) the kln94 uses the same mount and cabling as the 89. It's not the best, and none of them have WAAS, but that might be the cheapest/easiest option (unless it's just the battery lol). I see them coming out of planes pretty regularly and they're pretty cheap these days.

 

[WDD]

DAMN!! That's a good idea about the battery! Guess what we're going to try...
THANKS for that heads up. I'll let you know how it works out.

The entire point of this is for us to suggest ways to spend other peoples money the way we want to without regard to how inconvenient it would be for you. Now, forget about that battery, open your wallet, and go forth.

 

[asicer]

GTN 650

Yes, you have to cut the dash
Yes, it will cost more

Why stop there? Let's upgrade to a GTN750 and pile on a pair of 10" G3x and GFC600 while we're at it. Throwing $80k worth of avionics upgrades on a $50k airframe is the best!

 

[WDD]

Why stop there? Let's upgrade to a GTN750 and pile on a pair of 10" G3x and GFC600 while we're at it. Throwing $80k worth of avionics upgrades on a $50k airframe is the best!

Asicer speaks wise

 

[SkyDog58]

So he’s a wise guy?

 

[plongson]

Looking at the Honeywell/Bendix site for GPS updates, it's nothing short of a poopshow. Ya need an old laptop with Win7 or XP and a serial port. If the frigg'n thing boots up with a new battery, we'll test it out but I'm thinking it's just not going to be worth the hassle.
The cost of avionics upgrades verses the value of a 60 year old plane is certainly in the eye of the beholder. At some point the analogy of a "Hole in the water" as it applies to a boat might hold true here...lol

Here's another question, my son is VERY close to scheduling a VFR PPL check ride. If this POS GPS is installed and does not work, will the DPE not allow the check ride to proceed? I'm not even that close...She is a gem but we really bought this plane as a fun flyer and an hour builder. I can't see pouring a lot of money into it.

 

[WDD]

A GPS is not needed for a PPL checkride. Just mark it INOP and have him ready to talk about it in context to the MEL.

Assume you have at least one good com radio and a working nav radio with a CDI. He will have to demonstrate finding a fix using a VOR.

If you ever want to fly IFR put a new Garmin something in it. If all you ever want to do with it is local burger VFR runs, leave as is.

 

[unsafervguy]

A GPS is not needed for a PPL checkride. Just mark it INOP and have him ready to talk about it in context to the MEL.

Assume you have at least one good com radio and a working nav radio with a CDI. He will have to demonstrate finding a fix using a VOR.

If you ever want to fly IFR put a new Garmin something in it. If all you ever want to do with it is local burger VFR runs, leave as is.

Slapping an inop sticker on it could just get him a discontinuance. At least it will get him a very in-depth discussion of the 91.213 about inop equipment. The equipment must be disabled or removed from the aircraft and the logbook entry made, including update of the wb if more than 1 lb.

 

[WDD]

Not sure about that. I took my PPL checkride with an INOP sticker somewhere on the dash. The MEL was satisfied, min equipment for VFR, etc. Curious to hear from other DPEs about that.

 

[Jim Carpenter]

Slapping an inop sticker on it could just get him a discontinuance. At least it will get him a very in-depth discussion of the 91.213 about inop equipment. The equipment must be disabled or removed from the aircraft and the logbook entry made, including update of the wb if more than 1 lb.

Something like this. INOP placard is fine, as long as the appropriate parts of 91.213 and AC-91-67 have been complied with. Probably an INOP sticker, and deactivation with a collared breaker, or complete removal, etc. with log entry. You (the candidate) should be familiar with the appropriate procedure(s), and be prepared to discuss, the examiner will ask, for sure (probably would ask even if you didn't have INOP equipment, they like to quiz students on this subject.)

 

[unsafervguy]

Not sure about that. I took my PPL checkride with an INOP sticker somewhere on the dash. The MEL was satisfied, min equipment for VFR, etc. Curious to hear from other DPEs about that.

First most sel aircraft do not have An Mel, a Mel program has to be set up with the faa for an specific operator. You may be confusing a Mel with an equipment list, two totally different things.
Second, far 91.213 is specific on inop equipment being removed and/or deactivated with proper documentation. If a dpe lets it go, that’s on him, most wont. You just can’t inop it, 91.213 must be

Not sure about that. I took my PPL checkride with an INOP sticker somewhere on the dash. The MEL was satisfied, min equipment for VFR, etc. Curious to hear from other DPEs about that.

I am. First most sel airplanes do not have an Mel. A Mel program has to be set up with the faa by an operator. You may be confusing a Mel with an equipment list. Two different things.

Second, 91.213 is specific about what must be done to inop equipment. It must be disabled and/or removed and proper logbook entries must be done, even for bob- required equipment. If this is not done, the aircraft is un-airworthy and a doe should discontinue the test.

 

[WDD]

Odd. The POH of the plane I did the checkride in had a MEL which I had to review during the oral.

 

[mondtster]

Odd. The POH of the plane I did the checkride in had a MEL which I had to review during the oral.

It likely was not an MEL. It was likely a kinds of operation equipment list (KOEL) or an equipment list that instructor(s) were passing off as an MEL.

 

[brcase]

<snip>

Here's another question, my son is VERY close to scheduling a VFR PPL check ride. If this POS GPS is installed and does not work, will the DPE not allow the check ride to proceed? I'm not even that close...She is a gem but we really bought this plane as a fun flyer and an hour builder. I can't see pouring a lot of money into it.

The answer will likely depend upon where you are located. True he can do much of his training without a GPS. However at least in my area it is impossible to accomplish the 3 different instrument approaches required for the checkride without flying over 300 miles to do it. Unless the airplane is equipped with a GPS or a DME.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[unsafervguy]

i dont think so, a mel is not part of a POH I suggest you read ac91-67. but here is big part of it.

p. MEL. The MEL is the specific
inoperative equipment document for a particular
make and model aircraft by serial and
registration numbers; e.g., BE-200, N12345. A
FAR Part 91 MEL consists of the MMEL for a
particular type aircraft, the MMEL’s preamble,
the procedures document, and a LOA. The FAA
considers the MEL as an SC. As such, the
MEL permits operation of the aircraft under
specified conditions with certain equipment
inoperative.

what I assume you are referring to is section 6 of the POH, weight and balance and equipment list. that is NOT an MEL. In ac91-67 figure 2 shows the decision tree that every pilot should have memorized or access to when faced with inop equipment. figure 3 is the decision tree to use when the aircraft is under a MEL.
I have never seen a part 61 school that has been granted a MEL on their aircraft.

 

[unsafervguy]

The answer will likely depend upon where you are located. True he can do much of his training without a GPS. However at least in my area it is impossible to accomplish the 3 different instrument approaches required for the checkride without flying over 300 miles to do it. Unless the airplane is equipped with a GPS or a DME.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

as to weather the DPE will do a ride without a GPS that is up to the DPE and the approaches available in the area. as to the inop GPS, if it is removed or deactivated, properly logged, and placarded it should not be a problem. however, he needs to understand the process of applying 91.213 and explain why it can fly with an in-op GPS. because he will be asked that in the oral.

 

[WDD]

The answer will likely depend upon where you are located. True he can do much of his training without a GPS. However at least in my area it is impossible to accomplish the 3 different instrument approaches required for the checkride without flying over 300 miles to do it. Unless the airplane is equipped with a GPS or a DME.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

Son is doing a VFR PPL checkride. No approaches.

 

[WDD]

what I assume you are referring to is section 6 of the POH, weight and balance and equipment list. that is NOT an MEL.

I believe you are correct. I was thinking about the comprehensive equipment list in the POH. The plane I used did not have a MEL.

 

[unsafervguy]

i really am not trying to be a hard a.., I just like pilots to be well informed with proper information. Any time your dealing with the FAA, what you don't know can really bite you. MEL's are something that unless your in the 135 or 121 world or operate turbine equipment you don't get to experience, and even a lot of pilots that fly with them do not really understand them. I deal with a lot of 121 a&p's that really don't know them as well as they should. i get a plane sometimes with a MEL on it that the M (maintenance) section was not complied with properly. let the FAA see a plane flying like that and a lot of people are going to get called on the carpet.

 

[SkyDog58]

i really am not trying to be a hard a.., I just like pilots to be well informed with proper information. Any time your dealing with the FAA, what you don't know can really bite you. MEL's are something that unless your in the 135 or 121 world or operate turbine equipment you don't get to experience, and even a lot of pilots that fly with them do not really understand them. I deal with a lot of 121 a&p's that really don't know them as well as they should. i get a plane sometimes with a MEL on it that the M (maintenance) section was not complied with properly. let the FAA see a plane flying like that and a lot of people are going to get called on the carpet.

MELs and their M&O procedures are really rather simple and easy to understand.

 

[brcase]

Son is doing a VFR PPL checkride. No approaches.

I mis-read your question, was thinking he would be doing his Instrument rating next. For PPL all is required is some form of electronic navigation. Fore flight with GPS or equivalent on a phone is electronic navigation.

Brian

 

[unsafervguy]

MELs and their M&O procedures are really rather simple and easy to understand.

for the most part, for the pilot it is. however, getting one set up, and using it on the (M) side can be a bit complicated at times. a MEL with multiple options can be tricky sometimes to determine which option applies depending on the failure mode. an example, one aircraft type I flew had a habit of having fuel indication issues. there were about three different MEL's that could be used, depending on the indications. maintenance was forever using the wrong one. mostly because the one they like to use was the easiest to comply with I think, and correcting a wrongly issued MEL is a big deal because it is admitting in the paperwork that you flew an unairworthy aircraft.

 

[SkyDog58]

for the most part, for the pilot it is. however, getting one set up, and using it on the (M) side can be a bit complicated at times. a MEL with multiple options can be tricky sometimes to determine which option applies depending on the failure mode. an example, one aircraft type I flew had a habit of having fuel indication issues. there were about three different MEL's that could be used, depending on the indications. maintenance was forever using the wrong one. mostly because the one they like to use was the easiest to comply with I think, and correcting a wrongly issued MEL is a big deal because it is admitting in the paperwork that you flew an unairworthy aircraft.

Your experience with it is far different than mine. All I know is what I have experienced as an airline mechanic, lead mechanic, supervisor, and maintenance controller. I never found any MEL difficult to understand or use. YMMV.

 

[WDD]

Not my question/not by thread. Just chiming in with what I read the OP situation to be.

I mis-read your question, was thinking he would be doing his Instrument rating next. For PPL all is required is some form of electronic navigation. Fore flight with GPS or equivalent on a phone is electronic navigation.

Brian