Rental Rules

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SportPilotCO

Pre-takeoff checklist
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CarlH
I put this in the flight training section since it involves CFI's. A friend who has recently been looking for a place to fly with found a school that states that even with a PPL you cannot do touch and goes in their plane without carrying a CFI and also no flying in more than a 5 kt crosswind. I get that insurance may dictate some of these things but I am wondering how common this is out there? I know the club I belong to doesn't limit doing touch and goes. I am not trying start the fundamental question of whether touch and goes are safe, I am wondering if others have seen rules like this?

Carl
 
What's the school in question and where is your friend looking to fly out of? I'd tell your friend to look at other options. I have never heard anything that restrictive out here in Colorado...
 
Depends on what the school/club wants. If the want no T&G without a CFI, it's their call. Is it a short runway?

But a 5knt crosswind? With that limitation, no one would ever fly around here.
Most aircraft have a 15-17knt direct demonstrated crosswind. Local schools may limit solo students, but I've not seen limitations on qualified certified pilots.
 
SportPilotCO said:
I believe it is out of KORL
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ORL and APA are about the same mix as bizjets & GA but APA is considerably busier and there's no problem (usually) with T&G. On the other hand, APA has 2 parallel runways and the T&Gs are usually kept over on the shorter 8K runway so the bizjets have the 10K runway. ORL has 2 intersecting runways, so it may be a traffic management decision due in part to airport request.

Not T&G w/o CFI and limited xwind. Verrrrrry interesting. Insurance issue perhaps?
 
So you can rent the plane solo but you have to promise not to do any touch and goes?

Here is another for you. Friend of mine was renting an LSA from a guy that required you to carry renters insurance for the full value of the airplane when new. Otherwise you had to pay him as CFI to fly with you. I guess that tells me that he did not have it insured for rental. For a while, he was the only LSA on the field but now there is a brand new Skycatcher at another FBO with real rules.
 
I would dig a little deeper into that. My school has a blanket policy that you can't fly night VFR. However, if you discuss the flight with the head instructor he can give you permission, just a verbal "ok" is all it takes. I don't know what his criteria is, I've never asked, but it could be as simple as just making sure we don't intend to fly west through the mountains.

Point is, they might have those as blanket policies, with permission granted beyond that on a person-to-person basis as they get to know you.
 
SportPilotCO said:
I put this in the flight training section since it involves CFI's. A friend who has recently been looking for a place to fly with found a school that states that even with a PPL you cannot do touch and goes in their plane without carrying a CFI and also no flying in more than a 5 kt crosswind. I get that insurance may dictate some of these things but I am wondering how common this is out there? I know the club I belong to doesn't limit doing touch and goes. I am not trying start the fundamental question of whether touch and goes are safe, I am wondering if others have seen rules like this?

Carl
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Sounds like it's time to find a new place to rent.
 
5 knot crosswind is absurd. How could you ever take off and gurantee the wind won't even kick up that much? That's not even a breeze.

The no touch and go rule applies to me too. It's actually common around this part, except for the local club.
 
bqmassey said:
I would dig a little deeper into that. My school has a blanket policy that you can't fly night VFR. However, if you discuss the flight with the head instructor he can give you permission, just a verbal "ok" is all it takes. I don't know what his criteria is, I've never asked, but it could be as simple as just making sure we don't intend to fly west through the mountains.

Point is, they might have those as blanket policies, with permission granted beyond that on a person-to-person basis as they get to know you.
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I would not accept a "verbal OK" in that situation. You are hung out to dry if you bended a plane under such an "understanding". If there is a rule against flying at night, and the CFI is OK with you doing so (and he has some authority in the club), I would insist on getting his OK in writing.

Wells
 
Both the school I trained at and the club that now does the training at my home airport prohibit T&Gs but we are also a 2500 ft strip with 3-400 displaced thresholds. As a result of this I never did much in the way of T&G at other airports so I never developed the feel for them. The rule make sense here but if your talking about a 8k runway I don't think so at all. I don't do them but that is because I don't feel comfortable doing them and don't see a need to develop that particular skill.
 
No T&G's without CFI at I69(E of Cincinnati). XW, visibility and ceiling limits also change with experience. The renter sets the rules and for good reason. There is plenty of history on the most likely causes of aircraft damage. Just one reason why we built our own.
 
The school I learned at didn't let STUDENT PILOTS do T&G's solo. (In fact, that's how I knew I passed. The examiner suggested I go out and do some practice T&G's at the end of my checkride as I was a bit clumbsy in the transition from rollout to takeoff. I told him that the school didn't let students do T&G's and he told me that didn't apply to people once they got their license.).

Actually, insurance gets a lot of bad rap for made up rules at FBOs. In several years as both a leasor and as flying club management I've never seen an insurer impose such things. The closest we had was a hard surface requirement which we were able to negotiate over to requiring that we land at airports. Sometimes, we'd have to submit our club rules to get the quote, but that was rare (primarily after we added some stuff like tail draggers to the fleet).
 
No T&G's = A taxi back after each landing, that takes a couple minutes, less fuel burned, less landings per hour, etc. all while the Hobbs meter clicks away.

That's part of the reason the FBO likes that policy? :dunno:
 
Actually ECA. At least in 2008 during PP training. Also helps add to cost of flight training.
 
SportPilotCO said:
I believe it is out of KORL
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I used to fly out of KORL and there was never any such restriction out of any of the local schools.
They did have a restriction on taking your rental to KCDK, which required you to sign a waiver stating that you understood there was no maintenance available and the you would assume the responsibility.
 
SportPilotCO said:
I put this in the flight training section since it involves CFI's. A friend who has recently been looking for a place to fly with found a school that states that even with a PPL you cannot do touch and goes in their plane without carrying a CFI and also no flying in more than a 5 kt crosswind. I get that insurance may dictate some of these things but I am wondering how common this is out there? I know the club I belong to doesn't limit doing touch and goes. I am not trying start the fundamental question of whether touch and goes are safe, I am wondering if others have seen rules like this?

Carl
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All that I have ever seen is stuff like:


  • File a flight plan if traveling more than 50 miles away
  • Be current with the schools policies and your proficiency (usually had a 1 hour flying time with in the past 30 days associated to it.)
  • If flying IFR, review your flight plan with a Chief Pilot and/or a CFII
  • Overnight flights need to be preapproved.
 
No T&Gs and no cross wind greater than 5 kts? Where's the fun in that? :D

We sure don't have any restrictions like that in our club. We're limited to paved runways (and the last time I know of that someone violated that they had a prop strike on a virtually new engine). We have to fly the Arrow at least 3 hours in a 180 day period or get signed off by a CFI (again). We require the equivalent of an FAA flight review annually. But, no problem with night flights. I file IFR without having a CFII review it (how would he if I'm coming home from somewhere?). We are supposed to file a flight plan if going more than 50 nm from KOLM or across the Cascades (a non-issue when flying IFR, you are filing a plan - period).

But no T&Gs? Cross wind limit? Never heard of such a thing.
 
So, at these places that don't allow T&G's without a CFI with you, what if I'm a CFI? Do I need to get a different CFI to ride with me?

Who gets to be PIC? Who gets to log it? :lol:
 
MachFly said:
When did a touch and go become dangerous? :confused:
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I know it sounds ridiculous, but I almost managed to run out of runway doing touch and go in a Cherokee about a month ago. Well, perhaps it wasn't that close. But I saw the runway end coming up and stared making plans for flying in ground effect beyond it. Something made me gawk instead of flying the airplane and so I reconfigured it late, and went takeoff power late. Estimated length required was 2000 ft (DA 7500 ft) with zero flaps, runway length 4800 ft. You'd think it was impossible to screw up. I have north of 200 hours and made probably 100+ T&Gs without accident.
 
zaitcev said:
I know it sounds ridiculous, but I almost managed to run out of runway doing touch and go in a Cherokee about a month ago. Well, perhaps it wasn't that close. But I saw the runway end coming up and stared making plans for flying in ground effect beyond it. Something made me gawk instead of flying the airplane and so I reconfigured it late, and went takeoff power late. Estimated length required was 2000 ft (DA 7500 ft) with zero flaps, runway length 4800 ft. You'd think it was impossible to screw up. I have north of 200 hours and made probably 100+ T&Gs without accident.
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Doesn't sound ridiculous to me. Cherokee's (assuming you were in a -140 rental out of ABQ) are absolute dogs around here.
 
Wow, 5 kt crosswind. I was signed off to solo in 10kts. Of course, in Central Texas I'd never have gotten my solo time otherwise.
 
zaitcev said:
I know it sounds ridiculous, but I almost managed to run out of runway doing touch and go in a Cherokee about a month ago. Well, perhaps it wasn't that close. But I saw the runway end coming up and stared making plans for flying in ground effect beyond it. Something made me gawk instead of flying the airplane and so I reconfigured it late, and went takeoff power late. Estimated length required was 2000 ft (DA 7500 ft) with zero flaps, runway length 4800 ft. You'd think it was impossible to screw up. I have north of 200 hours and made probably 100+ T&Gs without accident.
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The problem and subsequent danger was not with the T&G exercise, it was with the PIC losing concentration. Could have been so with any other maneuver just as easily.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
The problem and subsequent danger was not with the T&G exercise, it was with the PIC losing concentration. Could have been so with any other maneuver just as easily.
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Without trying to deflect the responsibility, I only wanted to point out that certain maneuvers are riskier than others. In general I avoid doing anything that requires a quick sequence of actions, with no opportunity for a redo in the middle. In particular, I never T&G in a retractable gear airplane.
 
zaitcev said:
Without trying to deflect the responsibility, I only wanted to point out that certain maneuvers are riskier than others. In general I avoid doing anything that requires a quick sequence of actions, with no opportunity for a redo in the middle. In particular, I never T&G in a retractable gear airplane.
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What about T&Gs in a retract requires quicker than normal actions for you than in a non-retract?
 
PBristolJr said:
No T&G's = A taxi back after each landing, that takes a couple minutes, less fuel burned, less landings per hour, etc. all while the Hobbs meter clicks away.

That's part of the reason the FBO likes that policy? :dunno:
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One would think that a taxi back would burn more fuel per landing/takeoff. But certianly would take more time as well.

The only rules that I've run accross have been the requirement to fly at least an hour a month, or a cfi must ride with for a couple landings, and one place would not allow "overnighters" as they had all their airplanes booked for training. Another place will allow "overnighters" but at the rate of 4 hours per day even though the prop isn't turning.
 
zaitcev said:
I never T&G in a retractable gear airplane.
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Why?

The gear has already been down since midfield downwind, so it's no different from a fixed gear at that point. Somewhere on base the prop is already full forward, so that's no different from a fixed pitch prop in that regard, either. You probably have flaps on both the fixed and the retract unless you're flying something old school. Mixture and carb heat is going to be already taken care of (or should be) whether you are in a fixed gear or retract, so that's a zero difference between the two.

The wheels touch down in a fixed, and as you roll a bit you adjust the flaps and trim for takeoff.

The wheels touch down in a retract, and as you roll a bit you adjust the flaps and trim for take off.

From this point on no matter what you are flying, it is exactly the same as a normal takeoff except you are probably further down the runway.

So what is so daunting about T&G in a retract that it requires para-human abilities?
 
EdFred said:
Why?

The gear has already been down since midfield downwind, so it's no different from a fixed gear that point. Somewhere on base the prop is already full forward, so that's no different from a fixed pitch prop in that regard, either. You probably have flaps on both the fixed and the retract unless you're flying something old school. Mixture and carb heat is going to be already taken care of (or should be) whether you are in a fixed gear or retract, so that's a zero difference between the two.

The wheels touch down in a fixed, and as you roll a bit you adjust the flaps and trim for takeoff.

The wheels touch down in a retract, and as you roll a bit you adjust the flaps and trim for take off.

From this point on no matter what you are flying, it is exactly the same as a normal takeoff except you are probably further down the runway.

So what is so daunting about T&G in a retract that it requires para-human abilities?
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It's exactly the same until the pilot grabs the wrong handle during re-configuration and gears the thing up. Unecessary risk, imo..
 
GCA319 said:
It's exactly the same until the pilot grabs the wrong handle during re-configuration and gears the thing up. Unecessary risk, imo..
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Mixture, prop, and throttle controls all look the same unless you have a quadrant, maybe that's an unnecessary risk too.
 
SportPilotCO said:
I believe it is out of KORL
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A 5 knot Xwind in an LSA, say, an Evektor Sportstar, is far more significant than a 8 knot xwind say, in a C172....

As a fraction of stall speed if nothing else.

Add to that, the propensity of that particular type (short gear) to drag the upwind wind resulting in a cartwheel.....I'd need to know more before saying much, esp. in a FLA based school, where it doesn't blow like at BJC.
 
EdFred said:
Mixture, prop, and throttle controls all look the same unless you have a quadrant, maybe that's an unnecessary risk too.
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You still don't have me sold on Touch and Go's in a complex (plus, with most cessnas the miture and prop require the push of a button or a twist to move while the throttle does not). In fact, I won't do a touch and go (especially with a student) in anything more complex than a 172. In a 172 you have 3 things to reset before you add power; however, let's say you make the small step up to a 182. Those 3 items increase to 5 knobs you have to make sure are in the correct position (Cowl flaps, trim, flaps, prop, and carb heat). That's alot of fiddling around and if nothing else, I've noticed pilots getting borderline on directional control while making these configuration changes in something as simple as a 150, which can result in a different set of problems. I'm leaving mixture out since that is generally aleady set if you're staying in closed traffic. The exception I'll make is if there is another pilot in the other seat to re-configure for me. Maybe I'm being excessively cautious, but you sure won't see me in line for a 44709 due to a student grabbing the wrong lever on a T&G and gearing up the airplane.
 
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