Rental C172/C177 or Arrow to build time

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Jorge Gonzalez

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Jorge0272
Hey guys,
I have some thinking to do. Maybe you guys can help me.
I am renting a Cessna 172 and a Cessna 177B right now. In was hoping to purchase an airplane, but things changed and I will need to wait probably until mid next year. Was going for a Mooney M20E/F or a Bonanza V-Tail maybe N35, but plans changed. My main goal is to get into a Cessna 310. Lots of flying to do to get there before the insurance will even look at me. $6500 quote right now.
Anyway, question since I have to wait. Does it make a difference if I build time in the C172/C177 or a Piper Arrow? I do know I will need at least 25 hours in a multi engine no matter what I have flown. Arrow is $190 per hour. Per the rules of the flight school, I need to fly with their instructor for 10 hours before I can fly alone, so that will be $260 per hour for a total of $2600. I do have Bo V-Tail time. their rule is mainly to build time in type. That $2600 is basically 16 hours in the C172/C177.
Should I just keep flying the C172/C177 and forget the Arrow? Honestly, I don't think the Arrow will help my goal to get into the 310 anyway, but it does add complex time.
There is no other aircraft anywhere within a 100 miles other than the 3 above.
What do you guys think?
The C172 is well equipped. Garmin 530 and GFC500 Autopilot
The C177B is basic, really basic.
Arrow, Don't know. No pictures online. I called and spoke to them about requirements.
 
To build time I think the lowest price one is best.
But if you want something that's a tad more fun, gives you complex time, has a magic blue lever, cruises faster and is just generally better -- go with the arrow.
Then again, I'm biased :cool:
 
Generally the tipping point for rent breaking even with ownership is about 80-100 hours a year. Others may have a sharper pencil.

Owning a plane is expensive and frequently the newly acquired plane has deferred maintenance and the first annual can be a looper.

It's still a sellers market and finding a quality plane is a challenge as the sell word of mouth FAST. I good friend sold his mint 3 owner 172M the weekend he told a couple of guys on the field, he got over asking.

Original paint and interior and pretty basic but nice avionics. Mid time engine. Well maintained. All annuals were According to Cessna Service manual inspection and maintenance list and not just 43.13.

These planes are hard to find.
 
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Fly whatever is cheapest. Your goal is to build time. You don’t need the fanciest airplane you can find, you just need something that you can fly regularly and gain experience with. Arrow time isn’t going to help you get into a 310 either.
 
RyanB said:
Arrow time isn’t going to help you get into a 310 either.
Click to expand...
I've never gotten a quote on a twin, but is that the case?
I imagine showing up with some complex time on a retractable 310 is better than none, no?
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
I've never gotten a quote on a twin, but is that the case?
I imagine showing up with some complex time on a retractable 310 is better than none, no?
Click to expand...

I have received a few quotes from Avemco.
Beech B55 $9000
Cessna 310 $6500
Bo V-Tail $2800
Piper PA-32 $2450
($100K Hull value)

I am a low time pilot which is probably why quotes are a bit high.
Total time 210 (PPL)
10 complex
0 multi (but for quote I put down 20, which is the minimum they will accept)
 
Jorge Gonzalez said:
I have received a few quotes from Avemco.
Beech B55 $9000
Cessna 310 $6500
Bo V-Tail $2800
Piper PA-32 $2450
($100K Hull value)

I am a low time pilot which is probably why quotes are a bit high.
Total time 210 (PPL)
10 complex
0 multi (but for quote I put down 20, which is the minimum they will accept)
Click to expand...
The PA-32 at 100k$ surprises me a little bit.
AVEMCO has me at ~2k$ for a lower hull value in a PA28R and that's with 500 hours, 440 of which are in the same make/model!
 
Jorge Gonzalez said:
I have received a few quotes from Avemco.
Beech B55 $9000
Cessna 310 $6500
Bo V-Tail $2800
Piper PA-32 $2450
($100K Hull value)

I am a low time pilot which is probably why quotes are a bit high.
Total time 210 (PPL)
10 complex
0 multi (but for quote I put down 20, which is the minimum they will accept)
Click to expand...
Just for reference, how much for a 172? 152?
 
Why not grab a cheap taildragger if you're just trying to build hours? You'll gain some airmanship from that. My overhead is a lot higher for commercial insurance, but the hourly costs for my little Luscombe are around $40/hour and it can basically do anything a Cessna 150 can at close enough to the same speeds.
 
I think this really depends on where you are and where you want to be. You've said your goal is a 310, but have acknowledged that the 310 is a ways away. I really think you'd be well served renting a Complex aircraft. If that's the Arrow, it's the Arrow. It's not just about the hours you put in, it's also what you put in the hours. Having only 10 hours in a Complex aircraft is... very little. I'd look to build that experience whenever possible. That said, flying the 172 or the 177 will help you practice your skills without the higher costs on the Complex plane.
 
I definitely feel like getting time in an Arrow and 172RG helped my skills as a pilot quite a bit. I never felt like a real pilot until I got proficient in them.

But if you do decide to fly the Arrow then learn to fly it well, not just use it to inflate your logbook totals. I flew with a guy that owned a 182 for many years and never (or barely) used the prop control. His rationale was, "if you just leave it alone you can pretend it's a fixed pitch." :eek:
 
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I don't know if it would help or not but would be a great experience. Perhaps look at some place that does training in something like an Blanik L23. Might have to travel a bit, make it a week or two event, but could probably get a Glider rating (insurance companies seem to like glider time and ratings), and the Blanik will be Retract time as well, even if it isn't complex time.

Not sure who is doing training in Blaniks or other retractable gear gliders, perhaps Big sky Soaring in Montana. I am sure there are others. A bit of homework to make sure where ever you go can fly every day and have an examiner available.

Arizona Soaring Inc, has a good reputation but I don't see any retractable trainers there. As I recall they have some onsite accommodations for staying onsite, while training or flying their.
Williams Soaring Center, also has a good reputation, but again no retractable trainers.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
@Jorge Gonzalez - I was confused on what you are trying to achieve. What is your purpose for building time?

fwiw - I obtained insurance on my Seneca with zero hrs other than single, non-complex. ie - no ME, no RG, no complex hrs. It took some effort on my insurance broker’s part but he came through for me. We very specifically told the insurance company this was for initial multi & complex training. I had insurance coverage from day one but it came with specific conditions. The MEI needed 25 hrs in model for my training time to count (From insurance point of view). I needed 25 hrs dual training (in model) hrs before coverage kicked in for me solo. I needed 50 hrs total (in model) before coverage would allow me to fly with passengers.

I do not recall the cost for the insurance but it was a non-factor. The goal for year one was simply coverage and doing and completing MEI training.
 
Fly both. The whole point of building time is to gain experience.
Also you will be able to pick sides in the Low wing/High wing ****ing contest.
 
I agree that building time in a complex is better than building more time in a fixed gear.

I am shopping renewal on my Mooney, and the questions are:

Total fixed wing time
Total Retract time
Total time in make and model

Additionally

Hangared or tied down
Runway length at the airport it is based.
 
If you are hoping to time build, go cheap. If you’re boosting hours to prepare for a purchase (and buy insurance) or even want to XC a bit, go Arrow.


ArrowFlyer86 said:
The PA-32 at 100k$ surprises me a little bit.
AVEMCO has me at ~2k$ for a lower hull value in a PA28R and that's with 500 hours, 440 of which are in the same make/model!
Click to expand...
High interest rates *should* place downward pressure on insurance rates.
 
How many hours do you need? If you need 50 then skip the arrow and use that money to build time. If you are looking to build 200 hours quick or something like that, then get checked out in the arrow and fly the arrow periodically and use it for long trips with friends and family.
 
Do you already have your instrument rating? (If so, just ignore this!)
If not, that would be where your next training/time dollars should go.
 
Lots of good comments. Yes, my main thing is to build time. Of course, that time building will be used to become more proficient, not just fly. I do not have an IR rating yet. Since I have to keep changing airplanes with different equipment, I do not want to start training until I have steady use of 1 airplane. Do not want to keep relearning the different aircraft and that in my opinion will just take longer and training won't be as good.

@Mongoose Aviator, who did you use? Avemco said to call them back when I have 250 hours and 25 multi. They did not say anything about retract or complex or even asked about IR. PM the details if you don't mind. Thanks!

Going to keep flying the C172/177 for most of my flying and do the Arrow a few hours here and there just to add some complex time. Will also, take a weekend every other month and drive 3 hours to where I know of a multi for rent. Expensive weekend, but then aviation is not cheap!
 
You should get experience flying different types of aircraft, because if you have an instrument rating and can only fly one setup, you are kind of limited. Instrument training isn’t just for flying in the clouds, it’s for saving yourself when you accidentally fly into the clouds, which will happen one day.

Complex hours does help with insurance too, but insurance is not your only cost, you have maintenance, annual, and hangar too. The maintenance adds up quickly it seems.

Time building can be done in cheaper 2 seaters, get some xc in, go places. I have an Arrow and I like the airplane, would be nice to have something faster but it’s good for now.

I would get your instrument rating, then commercial rating, then your multi rating. This will help you keep at it. I’m working on my multi now with a scheduled checkride for next week.
 
@Jorge Gonzalez - First year insurance for my multi, complex, RG was $1200 for $1M of liability plus hull coverage was 4% of the declared aircraft value with Acceleration.
Second year, hull coverage cost dropped to 2.9% with Acceleration again.
Third year, hull coverage cost dropped to 2.4% with US Specialty / Tokio Marine.
Cost of the $1M Liability appears to have been fairly stable.

By comparison, my single, non-complex, FG currently has hull coverage @ 0.95% of declared value with Global Aerospace. The liability for $1M is only about $200 additional.

At the end of the day, the operational cost of the Multi is so much higher than the Single that the insurance cost sort of fades away into the background.
 
I have time in a few airplanes. My thing with IR training is, I will fly one airplane this week, 2-3 hours, then next time airplane has changed, relearn the equipment in that airplane, following week same thing, then the same thing. To me, I am wasting time relearning a new plane. I will get the IR for the reason you stated. Maintenance and annual is not that big of an issue for me. I am an A&P, hopefully get my IA soon. Also a DER so I can actual STC my electrical parts if I wanted too.
I just want to make sure the hours I am putting actually help. Don't want to put in a bunch of hours to find out it did not help much with the insurance. Anything I fly is hours added and will be fun, just want to make sure its the right hours I need for insurance purposes right now. Probably best to contact an insurance company and speak to them to see what they say.
 
@Mongoose Aviator - Ok, that seems like very cheap. Going to call them and see what they say.
A good single is not out of the picture. Maybe a Bo V35B? Cherokee Six would be nice, but a bit slow for what I want and since it is just my wife and I, no need for 6 seats. The wife saw a Cessna 310 and said that is what she wants to buy, so hence the we want a 310. Not going to say I don't want one, but I know the associated cost and training required. She does not. Thanks for the insurance info.
 
I think you’ll need 100+ hours complex time to help bring down your insurance. That 100 hours will cost you what 20k? The insurance savings might be 1k per year.

More hours, complex and multi time, more ratings, help with insurance but it’s a slow game. They want experience, and that you get over time.

As for going into an airplane with different equipment, if you understand instrument flying and the basics, it doesn’t take much time to get up to speed. You can download simulators on your iPad to practice the equipment at home. The goal is to understand the rules, procedures and your flow (eye scan etc), once it becomes second nature you will know what to look for.
 
I understand instruments. You start training using a GTN650. Next is an older KLN94?, then KX55, then a G430, CDIs in different locations. Audio panels different.
I prefer to wait until I get 1 aircraft and do the complete training on it. After I get my IR, then I can use other aircraft and learn those. I prefer to be perfect in one for training before training for others.
Spoke to an insurance adjuster. He actually ran the numbers. Cmplex helps, but barely. What made a big difference was having time in type. So if I did my multi training in a Cessna, that would help a lot. Even multi training in an Apache and then buying a 310, does not help much. Does help, but not a big amount. First year will be a huge insurance hit for me if I get a multi. I guess take the hit the first year. Ensure I get plenty of training and IR in it and that will bring it down almost 40%.
 
Having a bit of a hard time following, but that's probably me.

1) You are a PPL with 200 or so hours
2) You want to buy and afford the upkeep for a 310? Why?
  • If it is for X Country, then get your instrument. You'll really need it for X Country in a plane like the 310. Don't worry that your training planes might be different - not a real factor.
  • Instrument rating will help with insurance. I don't think a Commercial Rating does anything for you for insurance.
  • If NOT for X Country, then why own a 310?
 
None of the singles are going to help on lowering the insurance rate on a 310.you need multi time for a better rate.buying time in a 310 is costly and if you buy one ,hopefully you’ve studied the costs of owning and maintaining a twin. I had a 172,arrow and a twin beech travelair. Enjoyed them all .
 
@WDD - it would be for x country. Wife saw it and wants one. I would prefer a nice single (M20J or Bo V35B). Not going to lie, I would love a twin, but I do know the cost and training necessary for a twin. I can do 70% of the maintenance myself. Most of our flying would be CA to Chicago.
I do not want to start training for IR right because I do not have access to a steady plane. Constantly changing.
I think my best option is to fly whatever I can get my hands on. Buy my wife some nice jewelry and get a nice single.
I can actually rent an Apache (3 hours away) to build time, but I keep coming back to “buy a nice single and fly it as much as possible”.
Twin honestly only gets me 300-400 more usable load and maybe 25 kits?
Although it does give me more “safety” flying over the mountains which I will be doing quite a bit of.
 
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Yeah. Want the V-Tail. Cheaper maintenance and 160kts. Just need to find one with the 470 or 520 engine.
Or maybe find a partner and get the 310.
 
mandm said:
I think you’ll need 100+ hours complex time to help bring down your insurance. That 100 hours will cost you what 20k? The insurance savings might be 1k per year.

As for going into an airplane with different equipment, if you understand instrument flying and the basics, it doesn’t take much time to get up to speed. You can download simulators on your iPad to practice the equipment at home. The goal is to understand the rules, procedures and your flow (eye scan etc), once it becomes second nature you will know what to look for.
Click to expand...

At that point, it makes sense to just get the twin and build your time in it. Suck up the insurance the first year and get that 100 hours, which is also in Make and Model.

The problem is, these days there are such differences in avionics that there can be a significant difference in running them. Not like the old days where everything had a 6 pack and a couple of nav/coms. And the huge difference might be if it has DME or not.
 
Jorge Gonzalez said:
I understand instruments. You start training using a GTN650. Next is an older KLN94?, then KX55, then a G430, CDIs in different locations. Audio panels different.
I prefer to wait until I get 1 aircraft and do the complete training on it. After I get my IR, then I can use other aircraft and learn those. I prefer to be perfect in one for training before training for others.
Spoke to an insurance adjuster. He actually ran the numbers. Cmplex helps, but barely. What made a big difference was having time in type. So if I did my multi training in a Cessna, that would help a lot. Even multi training in an Apache and then buying a 310, does not help much. Does help, but not a big amount. First year will be a huge insurance hit for me if I get a multi. I guess take the hit the first year. Ensure I get plenty of training and IR in it and that will bring it down almost 40%.
Click to expand...

I totally understand. I fly my plane with a 650 and Aspen. I fly airplanes with G1000, and with 6 pack and Garmin 400, and some with 6 pack and 430. Even though all Garmin, there are differences to deal with. And I am not learning. :D

I am renewing my insurance, Mooney 252 ,so complex and HP. The questions that come up are:

Total Time?
Total Retract Time?
Total Time in Make and Model?

For the plane:

Hangared or not?
Moving map? Coupled Autopilot?

A couple of insurers want to know the runway length at the home base. For my plane, those want at least 3000 foot runway.
 
So, you're going to get your IR in a 310?
 
@WDD - Will get the IR in whatever I buy. I know, if I get it in the multi, I will have to do a check-ride to use it in a single or vice a versa.

HHmm, Get a twin and Pay $7000 in insurance to get a bit more speed and UL or get a nice single and use the $7000 to pay for insurance, annual and fuel for the year.
 
@Jorge Gonzalez
The Multi IR checkride rolls into the Single. One Multi IR checkride covers both.

But not vice-versa. A Single IR checkride still requires the Multi IR checkride to demonstrate you can do an approach in a Multi on one engine.

You really sound like you want the single and are only being pressured into considering a twin.
 
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Jorge Gonzalez said:
@WDD - Will get the IR in whatever I buy. I know, if I get it in the multi, I will have to do a check-ride to use it in a single or vice a versa.

HHmm, Get a twin and Pay $7000 in insurance to get a bit more speed and UL or get a nice single and use the $7000 to pay for insurance, annual and fuel for the year.
Click to expand...

Don’t forget the double maintenance costs of the multi, actually probably more. I’ve been doing my multi training and the airplane has been down twice already for mx and now I have to reschedule my checkride. :mad:
 
The things that mattered when I looked for insurance for my twin was multi-time (total and in type), IR, total time and complex time. I accidentally had a lot of arrow time because the fg aircraft were always booked. I could always get an arrow even on short notice. What you want is quality time in progressively faster aircraft.
 
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