Redundancy by hand-held for TAA?

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
TAA aircraft are wonderful. They provides lots of information and has redundancy built into the architecture.

For example: I'm now flying behind a (still smells new-ish) G-1000 NXi with ESP and GFC-700 (not bragging) and I don't feel a need to bring an iPad along for backup.

Am I too trusting?

I admit that I don't have Geordi Laforge's understanding of the architecture, but I'm also only flying VFR right now.
 
If you are flying VFR in a familiar area, you don't need a G1000 let alone a backup for it. If you are in an unfamiliar area, I would carry a backup. Say you are near a busy class B, and your radio and GPS quit just as the controller finishes saying remain clear of class Bravo.
 
G1000 has to endure numerous subsystem failures before it becomes an airspace bust issue.
 
As someone with more than one TAA, I love my real time, always on portables. If something goes sideways (and things have), ever never do I miss a beat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I think that despite the very small likelihood of a failure in a G1000 impacting a VFR flight, some degree of backup is appropriate. Even without failures, it is going to be a benefit on the ground when planning the next leg after that weather diversion to that Podunk airport with no services. BTDT.

I wouldn't go crazy. If I already had a tablet EFB, I would toss it in my flight bag. If I didn't, a cheap or free EFB on a phone would do the trick for me.
 
Llk said:
As someone with more than one TAA, I love my real time, always on portables. If something goes sideways (and things have), ever never do I miss a beat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
What failures have you experienced?
 
I'd get the tablet, regardless. You'll find a lot of uses for it.

I bought an iPad a little over a year ago, to run Foreflight. I hated to spend the money for what I thought would be a one-trick pony, never used outside of the aircraft, but the app functionality was compelling.

I now use the iPad almost daily, for a host of things. I have a lot of meetings for various clubs that are now all online, so at the end of the day I migrate out of my home office and join those meetings from out on the deck. I use it in the shop or garage to watch YouTube videos (I've yet to find a repair problem for which someone hasn't posted a video describing a solution), I use it in the kitchen to call up recipes, I pack it instead of a laptop if I'm making a short trip somewhere and want to travel light, or if I think I'll be stuck in a waiting room somewhere for an hour.

I didn't particularly want it at first, now I don't know how I lived without it. Oh, and I do use it occasionally to run Foreflight. :)
 
GaryM said:
I'd get the tablet, regardless. You'll find a lot of uses for it.

I bought an iPad a little over a year ago, to run Foreflight. I hated to spend the money for what I thought would be a one-trick pony, never used outside of the aircraft, but the app functionality was compelling.

I now use the iPad almost daily, for a host of things. I have a lot of meetings for various clubs that are now all online, so at the end of the day I migrate out of my home office and join those meetings from out on the deck. I use it in the shop or garage to watch YouTube videos (I've yet to find a repair problem for which someone hasn't posted a video describing a solution), I use it in the kitchen to call up recipes, I pack it instead of a laptop if I'm making a short trip somewhere and want to travel light, or if I think I'll be stuck in a waiting room somewhere for an hour.

I didn't particularly want it at first, now I don't know how I lived without it. Oh, and I do use it occasionally to run Foreflight. :)
Click to expand...
This is a great post that encourages me to keep my money in my pocket.

About 10 years ago, I did a solo flight as a newish PPL and was in the Foreflight trial period with my brand new iPad and it saved me a potential airspace bust. I bought the app and decided not to return the iPad during my 30 day period. Later, I wanted a backup and reluctantly converted from Windows Mobile to iPhone. 10 years and many iPhone upgrades later, my household is mostly Apple everything - love the integration and family sharing- kids have iPads, wife and I have iMac/Macbook, kids have an iMac...but I never replaced that outdated iPad when I stopped flying, my daughter played games on it but it's now obsolete and she's now on her 3rd or 4th iPad.

I now own an iPhoneX and will likely upgrade when the battery starts getting long-toothed. I'm trying to justify a monthly Foreflight subscription and/or iPad purchase, but considering that I now fly a glass panel I don't really see the need. I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

Edit: Ooops, I forgot that I have WingX on my phone. Full version that I got as a bonus because of participation in another sphere of life.
 
Half Fast said:
Really? How many display screen failures can it tolerate?
Click to expand...
If there's only 1 AHRS and it fails then it won't matter how many screens you have in the cockpit. Ditto the GPS signal, magnetometer, etc.
 
Something with a chart on it, like a chart. I use my phone with an EFB and keep a couple of old sectionals in the bag. That should be all you need to find an uncontrolled field to land at. I was at a controlled field in the L8A some time back and my radio was dying. I had neglected to bring my extra batteries and so quickly told the tower I was ready to taxi. Radio failing please be ready to use light signals. His exact words were, if I recall correctly, "Taxi to the runway via A to D intersection departure at D, cleared to take off, cleared on course, have a good day."
 
Jaybird180 said:
What failures have you experienced?
Click to expand...

More than I care to discuss. Here’s a few...

Reputable overhaul shop didn’t catch a crack in case during overhaul. Caught by aircraft manufacturer at annual. Plane #2. Continental 6 Cyl turbo. Mooney.

Reputable mechanic /ia/renowned test pilot and p51 driver hand tightened spark plugs and didn’t properly tighten MP sensor. Caught by me during flight with Engine monitor. Caught in the middle of a 7 hour flight. Plane #2. Continental 6 cyl turbo. Mooney. Advanced pilot workshop and reading engine monitors are invaluable.

Vacuum pump failure during IMC on an IFR plan. In the middle of 4 hour plan. Plane #2. Continental 6 cyl turbo. Mooney. Had backup.

Alternator failure on single alternator plane. 11,500 over the mountains. Plane #3. Lycoming 4 cyl. Cessna. No alerts; gps display began to flicker.

Fuel line failure 5 hours post overhaul. Fuel starvation. 40 minute flight in SoCal from airport to airport. Landed at closed airfield. Plane #4. Continental turbo 6 cyl. Mooney. Props stopping in flight are the loudest silence you can hear.

Stuck mic, audio panel connection problem, plane #5. 172.

Alternator failure, plane #4, issue with alternator coupling on TSIO360. Short flight. Continental 6 cyl. Mooney.
 
If you want a backup, and don't want to waste money, don't get iPad and Foreflight. You can use many free apps, like Avare that can run on a $50 tablet, or on your phone. I use Avare as my primary, and never had any issues.
 
Llk said:
More than I care to discuss. Here’s a few...

Reputable overhaul shop didn’t catch a crack in case during overhaul. Caught by aircraft manufacturer at annual. Plane #2. Continental 6 Cyl turbo. Mooney.

Reputable mechanic /ia/renowned test pilot and p51 driver hand tightened spark plugs and didn’t properly tighten MP sensor. Caught by me during flight with Engine monitor. Caught in the middle of a 7 hour flight. Plane #2. Continental 6 cyl turbo. Mooney. Advanced pilot workshop and reading engine monitors are invaluable.

Vacuum pump failure during IMC on an IFR plan. In the middle of 4 hour plan. Plane #2. Continental 6 cyl turbo. Mooney. Had backup.

Alternator failure on single alternator plane. 11,500 over the mountains. Plane #3. Lycoming 4 cyl. Cessna. No alerts; gps display began to flicker.

Fuel line failure 5 hours post overhaul. Fuel starvation. 40 minute flight in SoCal from airport to airport. Landed at closed airfield. Plane #4. Continental turbo 6 cyl. Mooney. Props stopping in flight are the loudest silence you can hear.

Stuck mic, audio panel connection problem, plane #5. 172.

Alternator failure, plane #4, issue with alternator coupling on TSIO360. Short flight. Continental 6 cyl. Mooney.
Click to expand...
I somehow fail to see how this illuminates the selection of a backup for an avionics failure.
 
Jaybird180 said:
TAA aircraft are wonderful. They provides lots of information and has redundancy built into the architecture.

For example: I'm now flying behind a (still smells new-ish) G-1000 NXi with ESP and GFC-700 (not bragging) and I don't feel a need to bring an iPad along for backup.

Am I too trusting?

I admit that I don't have Geordi Laforge's understanding of the architecture, but I'm also only flying VFR right now.
Click to expand...
How do you flight plan?
How do you transfer that flight planning to your G1000?
How do you weather plan for a flight?
Do you have any interest in learning to fly IFR?
Do you fly in or near any controlled or special use airspace?
An iPad could be a great help with any of the above and if you had one, why not bring it on board as backup? If not, you could use ForeFlight on your phone as backup, though you might wish to start learning to use it before your first emergency.
 
I don't fly IFR but for VFR I have an iFly 740b. If the iFly should punch out and go home before the shift is over I have two apps on my iPhone that those with an Apple device may want to consider. The first is Fly Q Insight:

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/flyq-insight/id511107467

The other is iBFDmonochrome:

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ibfdmonochrome/id1413179229

Both work well for me and I trust (I've not had to use them for backup purposes yet) they will be sufficient, if needed, to get me out of a jam. Both apps are free.
 
When I upgrade my Bonanza to a dual screen Dynon setup, my iPad will likely live in my flight bag during the flight.
 
asicer said:
If there's only 1 AHRS and it fails then it won't matter how many screens you have in the cockpit. Ditto the GPS signal, magnetometer, etc.
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there is just 1 AHRS and magnetometer. But, if those fail, you get some red x’s on the screen over your heading and such and have to go back to the steam gauges. If those fail too, look outside the window and go land. Then go buy a lottery ticket. I have never heard of it happening.

There are two gpses powered by different buses, so if both fail, you’re probably talking about either a signal loss, in which case ForeFlight would be equally useless, or a full scale electrical failure, in which case an external AHRS probably isn’t your first problem. But even if both buses fail, the standby battery is good for 30 minutes.

Of course the GDUs might fail. The mean time between failures is advertised at 10,000 hours, someone smarter than me can figure out the math of both going at once.

it’s not something I worry about.
 
bflynn said:
there is just 1 AHRS and magnetometer. But, if those fail, you get some red x’s on the screen over your heading and such and have to go back to the steam gauges. If those fail too, look outside the window and go land. Then go buy a lottery ticket. I have never heard of it happening.

There are two gpses powered by different buses, so if both fail, you’re probably talking about either a signal loss, in which case ForeFlight would be equally useless, or a full scale electrical failure, in which case an external AHRS probably isn’t your first problem. But even if both buses fail, the standby battery is good for 30 minutes.

Of course the GDUs might fail. The mean time between failures is advertised at 10,000 hours, someone smarter than me can figure out the math of both going at once.

it’s not something I worry about.
Click to expand...
All true, but unless I'm mistaken the question I was originally trying to answer was with regards to the G1000 and the backups/pilot being a separate question. In that respect, it takes fewer failures than many people think before you lose enough G1000 capability to force you to go to a backup. And even then, pitot/static contamination can take out both the glass and the steam simultaneously.
 
asicer said:
All true, but unless I'm mistaken the question I was originally trying to answer was with regards to the G1000 and the backups/pilot being a separate question. In that respect, it takes fewer failures than many people think before you lose enough G1000 capability to force you to go to a backup. And even then, pitot/static contamination can take out both the glass and the steam simultaneously.
Click to expand...

I don't know about the G1000, but these guys lost their entire Aspen Evolution glass panel due to a pitot tube block. It makes no sense, but they have it on video.
 
sarangan said:
I don't know about the G1000, but these guys lost their entire Aspen Evolution glass panel due to a pitot tube block. It makes no sense, but they have it on video.
Click to expand...

I can't speak to either systems directly, but most AHRS use air data for aiding. Failure of that aiding can make some AHRS unusable after certain amounts of time.
 
While I'm not flying something as elaborate, I believe in having backup's for my backup's. In my panel I have dual G5's, a GTN650, GTX345 ADSB in-out transponder, and a second nav/com. I also have a Ipad mini on the windshield. In my bag, I have a handheld com radio, a Ipad pro, a USB power brick and the Stratus 2S receiver that was my primary before I installed the GTX345.

Besides using the Ipad for backup, I will use it for flight planning.
 
Take a flight with the screen dimmed to black. If you can find your way back to the airport without killing yourself then you’re good.
 
sarangan said:
I don't know about the G1000, but these guys lost their entire Aspen Evolution glass panel due to a pitot tube block. It makes no sense, but they have it on video.
Click to expand...

Ok, I’ll give you that. When I’m making the Greenland crossing, I’ll carry a backup. And a Gumby suit and a very good raft.

as I recall this episode with Matt, it came back on again, right? I didn’t watch it again.
 
Jaybird180 said:
TAA aircraft are wonderful. They provides lots of information and has redundancy built into the architecture.

For example: I'm now flying behind a (still smells new-ish) G-1000 NXi with ESP and GFC-700 (not bragging) and I don't feel a need to bring an iPad along for backup.

Am I too trusting?

I admit that I don't have Geordi Laforge's understanding of the architecture, but I'm also only flying VFR right now.
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't you bring an iPad with you for backup? Not enough room? Not enough useful load?

How does that saying go again? Its better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it?

I don't understand if its a cost thing, Foreflight is $99/year. How much per hour does your airplane rental cost? But there is always fltplan go, which is free and pretty capable.
 
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