Reduce speed in an a hurry and not gain altitude

denverpilot said:
Not a single person said it... y’all are slippin’...

(Literally?)

“I’m gonna hit the brakes and he’ll fly right by...”

Oh come on. You know it had to be said! ;)
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Who’s slipping?

RoscoeT said:
I guess I'm the only one who doesn't understand your post. You have a plane up your ass and YOU (not the Mooney) wants to slow down quick?? Just hit the brakes and he'll fly right by.
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Nate, you beat me to it!

Kind of curious Wannfly as to why are you asking about ways to slow down. Are you asking the best or fastest way to quickly slow down and not gain altitude on general principle? If so you now have a bunch of good suggestions.

The real question is why was the Mooney so close. They should be the ones slowing down in point of fact. Getting so close a 360 on final is required raises serious questions about the judgement and skill of the Mooney pilot. Kinda feel that way about doing a 360...why not go around it is much safer.
 
This discussion has been helpful.
I've decided to leave it that way...

But, I'da brake-checked the Mooney.
 
Slowing down is for average pilots.
If you don't practice full speed landings, how are you ever going to be safe when your throttle sticks, or you have to pee reeeally bad?
 
Skyrys62 said:
Slowing down is for average pilots.
If you don't practice full speed landings, how are you ever going to be safe when your throttle sticks . . .
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Slowing down is for average pilots. Full speed landings is for good pilots. Landing with the fuel selector as your primary power control is for great pilots.
 
jonvcaples said:
Nate, you beat me to it!

Kind of curious Wannfly as to why are you asking about ways to slow down. Are you asking the best or fastest way to quickly slow down and not gain altitude on general principle? If so you now have a bunch of good suggestions.

The real question is why was the Mooney so close. They should be the ones slowing down in point of fact. Getting so close a 360 on final is required raises serious questions about the judgement and skill of the Mooney pilot. Kinda feel that way about doing a 360...why not go around it is much safer.
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The former. As to why the Mooney was so close, well don’t know, but we all make mistakes or misjudge separation etc would be my guess
 
"what I could have done better". Nothing that I see. Except, as already mentioned, don't let the guy behind you dictate your approach. That said, I like to haul ass in the 172 as close to touchdown as possible so I am usually in a fast descent at the top of the green arc as long as possible. In VFR.
 
denverpilot said:
Not a single person said it... y’all are slippin’...

(Literally?)

“I’m gonna hit the brakes and he’ll fly right by...”

Oh come on. You know it had to be said! ;)
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Cobra?
 
Mooneys are slick planes and hard to slow down...
:cool::p:rolleyes:

:cornut:
 
That's what go arounds are for, when you screw up following the airplane in front of you. I will keep my speed up to a point for someone, but at the end of the day, the guy behind me is responsible for himself, I'm not going outside of my comfort zone for him, especially low, slow near the ground.
 
RoscoeT said:
Disagree. Most GA aircraft are only minimally affected by slipping. If the point is to reduce your pattern exposure and clear the runway quickly, rather than flying a 3 degree fast approach and then doing some last minute slipping nonsense, you'd be much better off getting comfortable flying a normal power off 180, or at least a power off final approach and using slips not to try to scrub speed, but to put the plane down precisely where you want. No need for any histrionics.
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I disagree with your disagreement. A slip increases drag, drag decreases speed. A nose up slip will slow a slick GA airplane from 200mph to 80mph and while remaining on glide path in 1/2 a mile. Try doing that by only pulling power.
 
WannFly said:
As to why the Mooney was so close, well don’t know, but we all make mistakes or misjudge separation etc would be my guess
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You might have actually done the Mooney pilot a favor. They could have floated all the way down the runway and overrun it.
 
EdFred said:
I disagree with your disagreement. A slip increases drag, drag decreases speed. A nose up slip will slow a slick GA airplane from 200mph to 80mph and while remaining on glide path in 1/2 a mile. Try doing that by only pulling power.
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Look forward to your posting video of that kind of deceleration rate within 1/2 mile from a 200mph on a descending flight path. Any GA plane that will do 200mph probably has a CS prop, which when pushed forward power off produces way more drag than its crap rudder. And you are throwing in a full deflection slip at 200mph??? A slight slip ain't doing much. Nobody really needs to worry about doing any of this stuff. It's a marginal decelerating effect. As I mentioned there are better ways of shortening your pattern exposure.
 
I feel the need, the need for a shot of humor. What are the two most common things in the universe?

1-Hydrogen which has been proven by math and several science disciplines.

2-Human stupidity as proven empirically every day. The Mooney driver (more accurate description than pilot) is an outstanding example.
 
I don’t know about the other fellow’s Mooney, but mine has a black knob on the panel. Pull on it and the plane goes slower.

I followed a CAP 172 thru the pattern yesterday at a local airport, the Mooney has no problems flying the pattern at 172 speeds. When he turned base, I just extended my downwind a bit before going base.

It ain’t rocket surgery.
 
Skyrys62 said:
Slowing down is for average pilots.
If you don't practice full speed landings, how are you ever going to be safe when your throttle sticks, or you have to pee reeeally bad?
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I will use the red knob. If that also fails, I will use the key. If that fails too, then I’m not landing until the gas runs out.
 
RoscoeT said:
Look forward to your posting video of that kind of deceleration rate within 1/2 mile from a 200mph on a descending flight path. Any GA plane that will do 200mph probably has a CS prop, which when pushed forward power off produces way more drag than its crap rudder. And you are throwing in a full deflection slip at 200mph??? A slight slip ain't doing much. Nobody really needs to worry about doing any of this stuff. It's a marginal decelerating effect. As I mentioned there are better ways of shortening your pattern exposure.
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I previously posted the details. I don't have gopro to document. But yes I did exactly that (full deflection slip) WITHOUT pushing the prop forward until it was off the stops. But you're free to say I'm lying to fit your narrative Enough people here know me in person to know I'm not.
 
Bill Jennings said:
I don’t know about the other fellow’s Mooney, but mine has a black knob on the panel. Pull on it and the plane goes slower.

I followed a CAP 172 thru the pattern yesterday at a local airport, the Mooney has no problems flying the pattern at 172 speeds. When he turned base, I just extended my downwind a bit before going base.

It ain’t rocket surgery.
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That’s odd. My mooney doesn’t change speed when I pull the black knob, unless I also do something else. Until it hits the ground anyway.
 
EdFred said:
I previously posted the details. I don't have gopro to document. But yes I did exactly that (full deflection slip) WITHOUT pushing the prop forward until it was off the stops. But you're free to say I'm lying to fit your narrative Enough people here know me in person to know I'm not.
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If they know you, at least they know not to ever buy your airplane that you do 200mph full deflection slips in. :eek:
 
RoscoeT said:
If they know you, at least they know not to ever buy your airplane that you do 200mph full deflection slips in. :eek:
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All within POH limitations. Not sure what your issue is.
 
EdFred said:
All within POH limitations. Not sure what your issue is.
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Your airplane's Va speed is 200mph? Please tell us what you fly. I wouldn't fully deflect the rudder at 200mph in an aerobatic airplane much less some GA plane, but it's your airplane dude.
 
RoscoeT said:
Your airplane's Va speed is 200mph? Please tell us what you fly. I wouldn't fully deflect the rudder at 200mph in an aerobatic airplane much less some GA plane, but it's your airplane dude.
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Va only protects from a single full control deflection...I’d say a slip deflects two controls simultaneously.
 
RoscoeT said:
Your airplane's Va speed is 200mph?
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The only purpose of Va is to insure the airplane will stall before the maximum allowable G rating is exceeded. Nothing more, nothing less. I would dare say that if you're getting close to exceeding the maximum G rating of the airplane while you're doing a slip, you're probably doing slips wrong.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
The only purpose of Va is to insure the airplane will stall before the maximum allowable G rating is exceeded. Nothing more, nothing less. I would dare say that if you're getting close to exceeding the maximum G rating of the airplane while you're doing a slip, you're probably doing slips wrong.
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So you’re saying full rudder deflection below Va will stall the airplane?
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I would dare say that if you're getting close to exceeding the maximum G rating of the airplane while you're doing a slip, you're probably doing slips wrong.
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How 'bout exceeding load limits on the vertical stab and rudder? Does anyone think that if a POH doesn't list a max speed for full rudder deflection it's safe to go out and do it at Vne-1?

Nauga,
tailless
 
MauleSkinner said:
So you’re saying full rudder deflection below Va will stall the airplane?
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I'm saying Va isn't necessarily a limiting factor for full rudder deflection. Whenever I've seen it in writing it says max speed for full and sudden deflection. It doesn't say full period. It doesn't say full or sudden. It says full AND sudden. Words are cheap and easy. If full deflection under any circumstances were an issue, it would be easy enough to make that clear, but I've never seen it written that way. I can't think that's a coincidence.
 
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Juliet Hotel said:
I'm saying Va isn't necessarily a limiting factor for full rudder deflection. Whenever I've seen it in writing it says max speed for full and sudden deflection. It doesn't say full period. It doesn't say full or sudden. It says full AND sudden. Words are cheap and easy. If full deflection under any circumstances were an issue, it would be easy enough to make that clear, but I've never seen it written that way. I can't think that's a coincidence.
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Ok...so you’re saying full and sudden rudder travel below Va will stall the airplane?
 
Juliet Hotel said:
IIf full deflection under any circumstances were an issue, it would be easy enough to make that clear, but I've never seen it written that way. I can't think that's a coincidence.
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I'm not quite sure what you're implying here, but more than one airplane has lost it's vertical stab due to loads induced by sideslip exceeding structural limits.

Nauga,
bent
 
nauga said:
I'm not quite sure what you're implying here, but more than one airplane has lost it's vertical stab due to loads induced by sideslip exceeding structural limits.
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Very true. If I were flying something heavy and fast with a tail held on by nothing but carbon fiber, I might think twice about it. But in your basic Mooney or Bonanaza I don't think I'd lose too much sleep over it.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Very true. If I were flying something heavy and fast with a tail held on by nothing but carbon fiber, I might think twice about it. But in your basic Mooney or Bonanaza I don't think I'd lose too much sleep over it.
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Here's a relevant snip from Part 23:

23.441 Maneuvering loads.(a) At speeds up to VA, the vertical surfaces must be designed to with stand the following conditions. In computing the loads, the yawing velocity may be assumed to be zero: (1) With the airplane in unaccelerated flight at zero yaw, it is assumed that the rudder control is suddenly dis-placed to the maximum deflection, as limited by the control stops or by limit pilot forces.

There are also similar roll requirements. So when you dig into the cert requirements Va does imply more than reaching critical AOA at limit load factor. There is no requirement that structure be able to sustain full rudder deflection and sideslip resulting from same above Va for the typical GA airplane. Tread lightly.

Nauga,
and his q-beta limit
 
nauga said:
...it is assumed that the rudder control is suddenly dis-placed to the maximum deflection, as limited by the control stops or by limit pilot forces.

There is no requirement that structure be able to sustain full rudder deflection and sideslip resulting from same above Va for the typical GA airplane.
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But if it can handle a "sudden" application, wouldn't merely "sustaining" full deflection impart less stress? I don't know why it seems intuitive to me that anything sudden is more stressfull.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Because you said this.


What else would you mean?
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Ugg. Va is the design limit for when an airplane at gross weight can encounter turbulent air and will stall before exceeding max G loads. It has to do with stall speed and load factors. How many G's are you putting on the plane in a slip in smooth air? Yes run it up to just under Vne and then jam a pedal to the floor in under a second and you might just bend something. Duh. But put it in a slip in smooth air and apply the inputs over several seconds? I think you'll be just fine in most GA aircraft.
 
dtuuri said:
But if it can handle a "sudden" application, wouldn't merely "sustaining" full deflection impart less stress? I don't know why it seems intuitive to me that anything sudden is more stressfull.
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Because the requirement is only at Va and below. Above Va there is no requirement and the loads with full rudder, even after gradual application, may exceed the structural limits at some point between Va and Vne. Loads on the vertical are roughly a function of dynamic pressure and sideslip - as dynamic pressure increases (with the square of airspeed), the sideslip required to reach the limit load decreases. Will you get there? Maybe not...but then again, how do you know?

Nauga,
with a shake, rattle, and roll
 
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