Redbird Flight Simulator

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Craig Hawks

Filing Flight Plan
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Aug 28, 2021
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Hawkeye
I'm one for over-planning and I have many questions and could use some coaching.

I completed my Discovery Flight to be sure that pursuit of my PPL is something really I want to do. Next, I completed my Third Class Medical Certificate today figuring that I needed that potential show stopper out of the way.

Now, I've 80% targeted a flight school and their recommendation is the following: complete King Schools "Get it all" course, become proficient in their Redbird Flight Simulator then begin Hands-On Flight Training.

My concern is, there's much chatter (not here, but elsewhere) that Simulators serve little purpose beyond ingraining bad habits. The repeating phrase is..."if your goal is to fly a simulator...fine, otherwise, skip the simulator and spend your money on flight training". Admittedly, the Simulator is a pricey piece of business. Either $70/hr or $700/yr with a $500 membership. I have no way of knowing how much or little I'll use or need a simulator.

Also, Kings School is $600 and I've had good luck with Pilots Institute for other courses and they are a bit under $300 because I've bought other courses from them.

I'd very much appreciate your thoughts and opinions on all of the above. Many thanks in advance!
 
Craig Hawks said:
My concern is, there's much chatter (not here, but elsewhere) that Simulators serve little purpose beyond ingraining bad habits. The repeating phrase is..."if your goal is to fly a simulator...fine, otherwise, skip the simulator and spend your money on flight training". Admittedly, the Simulator is a pricey piece of business. Either $70/hr or $700/yr with a $500 membership. I have no way of knowing how much or little I'll use or need a simulator.
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Supervision by a CFI with experience teaching in a sim will mitigate the bad habits and hopefully ingrain good habits. How many hours to expect in the sim should be a good discussion with your CFI.
 
asicer said:
Supervision by a CFI with experience teaching in a sim will mitigate the bad habits and hopefully ingrain good habits. How many hours to expect in the sim should be a good discussion with your CFI.
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Wow! You absolutely pointed out a huge hole in my plan...the CFI! I haven't planed for her or him at all. Somehow I guess I thought the CFI was "assigned" like a teacher in grade school. Meaning you got who you got. You're indicating that I should either find one or request one right now...before actually signing up for training...and using them for some of the questions. Am I understanding correctly?
 
Craig Hawks said:
Wow! You absolutely pointed out a huge hole in my plan...the CFI! I haven't planed for her or him at all. Somehow I guess I thought the CFI was "assigned" like a teacher in grade school. Meaning you got who you got. You're indicating that I should either find one or request one right now...before actually signing up for training...and using them for some of the questions. Am I understanding correctly?
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Even more so, you should be interviewing several to find one that's a good fit. In some ways, it's a little bit like hiring a contractor.

(assuming part 61 and not some structured arrangement)
 
Silly question...where do I shop for a CFI? I'm very new to this (Hobby, past time, pursuit, not sure the phrasing) and have only "shopped" from the Flight School level and have learned that CFI's appear to be Independent Contractors. Ideas on where to find groups of CFI's to Interview?
 
Craig Hawks said:
Silly question...where do I shop for a CFI? I'm very new to this (Hobby, past time, pursuit, not sure the phrasing) and have only "shopped" from the Flight School level and have learned that CFI's appear to be Independent Contractors. Ideas on where to find groups of CFI's to Interview?
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visit small local airports, in the morning is a good time to catch pilots drinking coffee as Around there. My opinion is that will likely land you with some ok’d salt with a lot if fever all aviation hours that’s in love with general aviation.

mom sure flight schools work but you are more likely to get a kid on his way to the airlines building hours. I’d rather learn from a crust pls cfi who has seen it all.
 
Craig Hawks said:
Silly question...where do I shop for a CFI? I'm very new to this (Hobby, past time, pursuit, not sure the phrasing) and have only "shopped" from the Flight School level and have learned that CFI's appear to be Independent Contractors. Ideas on where to find groups of CFI's to Interview?
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If it's an Independent Contractor arrangement, the flight school should have a list of CFI's authorized to instruct on their equipment. Hopefully the website has a bio/CV/resume for each one. Pick out the ones that look best and start calling around.

@kath , suggest we have a sticky for "how to interview a potential CFI". :)
 
asicer said:
If it's an Independent Contractor arrangement, the flight school should have a list of CFI's authorized to instruct on their equipment. Hopefully the website has a bio/CV/resume for each one. Pick out the ones that look best and start calling around.

@kath , suggest we have a sticky for "how to interview a potential CFI". :)
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Yeah, that would be a good one! (If you locate a particularly good thread, let me know...)
In the meantime...
Yes, flight schools will have a list of their CFI's, whether they are salaried or contractors. And yes, they will probably assign you one when you first call, unless you specify otherwise.
However, I'd suggest to go fly with whoever they assign. Think of it as "interview #1". There's not much you'll learn from bio's and resumes that is really useful... what you want is someone with whom you can communicate well. A good CFI will answer your questions. Will ask you questions. Will have a plan (a syllabus), but will observe how you fly and adjust the lesson to you. Will not yell at you. With a good CFI, you'll feel as though he or she has things under control -- even if it's your hands on the controls. There's a "vibe", if you will. It's more like matchmaking, or dating. Students and instructors are all different, and there's right instructor for you out there somewhere. None of this will show up on a resume.
When your first lesson is over, ask the (assigned) CFI about test-driving a different CFI. A good CFI will consider this completely normal and healthy, and will not take offense. Interview #2.
 
I just finished the Pilot Institute private pilot course and passed the exam last Friday. I'd highly recommend it. I'm not familiar with the King courses, but this worked for me.

Not sure on the sim question, but if the hourly cost was anywhere near the same, I'd prefer the real plane. Some here have mentioned that the sim is good for training malfunctions, stall/spin training, and such.
 
IMO a simulator is great for instrument training, so good in fact that I used it for more hours than the FAA allows to be credited because in the long term it saved the student time and money. I wouldn't use it for training a private student, especially initially, because I would want that student to learn to fly with his eyes outside the aircraft not staring at the panel.
 
Craig Hawks said:
I'm one for over-planning and I have many questions and could use some coaching.

I completed my Discovery Flight to be sure that pursuit of my PPL is something really I want to do. Next, I completed my Third Class Medical Certificate today figuring that I needed that potential show stopper out of the way.

Now, I've 80% targeted a flight school and their recommendation is the following: complete King Schools "Get it all" course, become proficient in their Redbird Flight Simulator then begin Hands-On Flight Training.

My concern is, there's much chatter (not here, but elsewhere) that Simulators serve little purpose beyond ingraining bad habits. The repeating phrase is..."if your goal is to fly a simulator...fine, otherwise, skip the simulator and spend your money on flight training". Admittedly, the Simulator is a pricey piece of business. Either $70/hr or $700/yr with a $500 membership. I have no way of knowing how much or little I'll use or need a simulator.

Also, Kings School is $600 and I've had good luck with Pilots Institute for other courses and they are a bit under $300 because I've bought other courses from them.

I'd very much appreciate your thoughts and opinions on all of the above. Many thanks in advance!
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VFR private pilot here, no CFI, so don't put too much weight into what I say but, sounds like they're trying to pay for their investment in Red Bird Sim hardware. I've never flown in a sim. I used free FAA published material and a $12 ASA Written test prep book(came with endorsement to take the test). Worked for me. ??

On the CFI shopping, as other have said, find one that fits. If you're not sure after the first one, try another one. The first instructor I flew with barely let me touch the controls and made me feel like a passenger. I was puzzled after that flight and somewhat off-put on the whole flying thing. Luckily my curiosity won out and I tried another CFI at another FBO and it was night and day. He had me do everything, preflight, start up, run up, taxi, talked me through the takeoff, basic flight maneuvers, needless to say it was awesome, and I was hooked. :)

From what I've read on the forum here, the SIM is probable good for instrument work where it can actually count for currency. Not so sure about the primary training though.

Good luck!
 
What do they mean by proficient? How many hours are they talking?

Before badmouthing them I will point out they did apparently say the Redbird was "recommended", not required. Two different things from a customer experience perspective.

I recommend that bookwork, chair flying, and review between lessons, and maybe simming at home if you're so inclined, would be just as effective if not more so...while also being less costly.
 
Rgbeard said:
Simulator for PPL? Really?
to what purpose?
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I was responding to the OP who said that a flight school he was looking at for his private recommended that he become proficient in the redbird before he goes into an aircraft. I think that basically anytime initially in a simulator for a PPL is negative training. A PPL student should be eyes outside not inside.
 
jayhawk74 said:
I was responding to the OP who said that a flight school he was looking at for his private recommended that he become proficient in the redbird before he goes into an aircraft. I think that basically anytime initially in a simulator for a PPL is negative training. A PPL student should be eyes outside not inside.
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Sorry, I wasn’t questioning you. I was questioning the OP.

To me the sim has zero value outside of instrument training.

Takeoff and landing has zero similarities to a real plane.
it’s twitchy as can be
 
Rgbeard said:
To me the sim has zero value outside of instrument training.
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I mostly agree with you, but Redbird claims that a sim (probably their full-motion version) can help.

“They’re still getting about 85 hours, which is the national average, but it’s combined airplane and simulator time.” That holds costs down. And through the simulator, “they’re experiencing things they couldn’t get in the real airplane and graduating far more skilled.”
https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/is-redbird-just-plain-better/

“The simulator was key...”
https://www.avweb.com/air-shows-events/redbird-students-complete-one-week-ready-to-solo/

Yeah, they're in the business of selling simulators but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Rgbeard said:
Takeoff and landing has zero similarities to a real plane.
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There's more to primary training than takeoff and landing.
 
Craig Hawks said:
I'm one for over-planning and I have many questions and could use some coaching.

I completed my Discovery Flight to be sure that pursuit of my PPL is something really I want to do. Next, I completed my Third Class Medical Certificate today figuring that I needed that potential show stopper out of the way.

Now, I've 80% targeted a flight school and their recommendation is the following: complete King Schools "Get it all" course, become proficient in their Redbird Flight Simulator then begin Hands-On Flight Training.

My concern is, there's much chatter (not here, but elsewhere) that Simulators serve little purpose beyond ingraining bad habits. The repeating phrase is..."if your goal is to fly a simulator...fine, otherwise, skip the simulator and spend your money on flight training". Admittedly, the Simulator is a pricey piece of business. Either $70/hr or $700/yr with a $500 membership. I have no way of knowing how much or little I'll use or need a simulator.

Also, Kings School is $600 and I've had good luck with Pilots Institute for other courses and they are a bit under $300 because I've bought other courses from them.

I'd very much appreciate your thoughts and opinions on all of the above. Many thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

I teach IFR in a Redbird FMX simulator, but this is the first time I've ever heard of a recommendation to do primary training in a simulator. It sounds bizarre to me. It should really be the other way around. First fly in a real airplane, get a feel for how things work, and then possibly transition to a simulator (even that is not a great advice unless you are training for instruments). Even million dollar simulators are for procedure training. You can't reproduce the sights, sounds and the sensations. That is a big part of what you will experience in your first few flights. The seat of the pants feel cannot be learned in a simulator. My recommendation is to ditch the $70/hr simulator.
 
Craig Hawks said:
I'm one for over-planning and I have many questions and could use some coaching.

I completed my Discovery Flight to be sure that pursuit of my PPL is something really I want to do. Next, I completed my Third Class Medical Certificate today figuring that I needed that potential show stopper out of the way.

Now, I've 80% targeted a flight school and their recommendation is the following: complete King Schools "Get it all" course, become proficient in their Redbird Flight Simulator then begin Hands-On Flight Training.

My concern is, there's much chatter (not here, but elsewhere) that Simulators serve little purpose beyond ingraining bad habits. The repeating phrase is..."if your goal is to fly a simulator...fine, otherwise, skip the simulator and spend your money on flight training". Admittedly, the Simulator is a pricey piece of business. Either $70/hr or $700/yr with a $500 membership. I have no way of knowing how much or little I'll use or need a simulator.

Also, Kings School is $600 and I've had good luck with Pilots Institute for other courses and they are a bit under $300 because I've bought other courses from them.

I'd very much appreciate your thoughts and opinions on all of the above. Many thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

Say no to the Redbird. Ask for the best CFI they have. Go to an in person ground school if you can find a quality one.
 
Just my 2 cents as a pilot that used to be a student. Part 61, the flight instructor is the most important thing.

As far as the redbird goes, I agree with what everyone else has said. To me, it reads like they're trying to recover the cost of their redbird investment. Or maybe point you toward instruments early, which I agree with sarangan I think is a mistake. Learn how to fly the plane by looking outside first.
 
I might be old school but on the subject of a good Private Pilot study course you don't have to spend any money. The FAA has all the study material absolutely free. It might not be fancy but it works. There are plenty of free practice test on line after you study & when you've done well on the practice tests have your CFI sign you off to take the knowledge exam. If you have the funds to purchase one of the commercially produced programs then by all means buy it.

In my many decades of flying & instructing I have practically no simulator time. I recently started working as a CFI full time for an FBO that has a Redbird. I've been on it a few hours practicing my IFR procedures & am real impressed with it. In my opinion, it's much harder than the airplane. I can't see much value for a new student except for some instrument practice. My .02.
 
My ppl training had one simulator session just for radio work (not Redbird but their own specific software and “controller”). That was because we flew out of a Bravo airport so it was more of a familiarization with the environment while taxiing around on the ground and how to handle comms.

There was one Redbird session partway through to focus on navigation … mostly VORs.

So … like others have said … fly the actual plane for your ppl training unless there is some specific learning objective to accomplish in the simulator.

That said, there is some benefit to using a simulator at home to practice procedures. I found it quite valuable. I also suggest audio recording your flights with your cfi so you can review all of the information that was communicated and instantly forgotten.
 
Having been a pilot for over 20 years and also growing up flying a ton of at home flight sims (never flown a redbird), I would forego the flight sim partm save the money and go straight to the plane. A flight sim is great in some respects (perhaps teaching rote memory items), but a flight sim can't give you the "feel" of real world flying. There is just something about feeling a climb after takeoff, a steep turn, a stall or slipping a plane into landing that you cant get from a sim. I know as pilots we are trained to read & trust instruments...but it has been my experience that, at least VFR, you develop a sense of what something should feel or sound like. Think of it this way, is a roller coaster sim at the mall perhaps even with limited motion movement the same as a real world rollercoaster? Not even close as far as I am concerned.

As for a CFI, I didnt research CFIs like I probably should have, I ended up at a little mom and pop flight school with an 18 year old CFI training to build time for his airline ambitions and a 55 year old mean as hell pit viper of a woman (she owned the school). I can tell you, the 18 year old was fun to fly with...the 55 year old pit viper I dreaded flying with but I can tell you honestly, I learned more from the pit viper than the 18 year old and she made me a better pilot. I am not telling you to get a mean CFI...just find one with experience that actually does CFI because they love teaching/flying, not just as a means to an end for their career.

My two cents and with another $8 might get you a Starbucks LOL
 
When people say that sims reinforce bad habits, they mean people using consumer simulation software (like Microsoft Flight Simulator) at home unsupervised, not a simulator that's part of a flight-training programme.

That said, a Redbird — even the full motion one — is mainly just a procedures trainer. The real sims that the big kids use for bizjets and airliners have a lot of extra stuff (like control loading) that the Redbird doesn't, not to mention a realistic flight-dynamics model.

It is a useful teaching tool, because the instructor can hit pause any time and go back over what you did well/poorly. But the Redbird is not good enough be more than a supplement to in-aircraft training.
 
To me it depends what they are using it for. By a large margin what you need to learn is visual and while some of the sims are pretty good at mimicking reality, you really need to be eyes on the real outside.

Bit there are a few things a sim can be good for, even at the private level. Flight be reference to instruments is obvious. Another is emergencies. There is just so much emergency training one can do in an airplane. More than enough to "teach to the test" but a lot more you can do with even a cheap trainer.

So the questions are, how many hours and what for?
 
A simulator can be very effective if the CFI uses it right. It eliminates the distractions, interruptions, and wasted time that you have on a flight and allows the CFI to pause to work through things with which the student is struggling. It is best for learning procedures as it doesn't replicate the tactile feel of flying the airplane. It can also be very useful if it accurately represents the advanced avionics (i.e. G1000) in the training airplane.

For a primary student, I'd limit the use of a simulator to navigation concepts and most of that can be some on a web-based navigation simulator like the ones available here. http://www.luizmonteiro.com/Index.aspx Look under the Online Simulators tab on the side navigation bar. If the Redbird accurately simulates the training airplane's avionics, I'd use it for that.
 
Craig Hawks said:
My concern is, there's much chatter (not here, but elsewhere) that Simulators serve little purpose beyond ingraining bad habits. The repeating phrase is..."if your goal is to fly a simulator...fine, otherwise, skip the simulator and spend your money on flight training".
Click to expand...

We didn’t have sims when I got my ppl. However, Looking back I think a sim would have helped in specific situations by removing the distraction of flying & traffic while trying to get a handle on VOR/Omni navigation, it’s relation to ground track & crosswinds, and plotting cross radials to find a location (does anybody do that stuff anymore?).

I think a sim would also be helpful in initial partial panel work & understanding various instrument relationships (although you lose that seat of the pants feel of acceleration & g force in a sim). As well as initial emergency IMC work.

I would have loved a simulator for the Instrument ticket, just to get workflow & information management down. Otoh, being able to “pause” the sim when you get overloaded becomes a deadly crutch if allowed to go on. Half of instrument training, all training really, is being confident in your ability to cope & maintain control…fighting back panic.

I think there could be value in taking an issue that develops in inflight training into a sim to slow & break it down into segments. There were times in my training when I just could not “see” myself doing what the instructor said I was doing that was screwing up mastery a maneuver. (Where you look during a round out & flare, for instance. Also, for me, over controlling on a turn about a point. I just couldn’t “see” the wind & drift for a long time.)

I agree, however, that without an instructor sitting sidesaddle, simulators are just mall toys.
 
saddletramp said:
I might be old school but on the subject of a good Private Pilot study course you don't have to spend any money. The FAA has all the study material absolutely free. It might not be fancy but it works. There are plenty of free practice test on line after you study & when you've done well on the practice tests have your CFI sign you off to take the knowledge exam. If you have the funds to purchase one of the commercially produced programs then by all means buy it.

In my many decades of flying & instructing I have practically no simulator time. I recently started working as a CFI full time for an FBO that has a Redbird. I've been on it a few hours practicing my IFR procedures & am real impressed with it. In my opinion, it's much harder than the airplane. I can't see much value for a new student except for some instrument practice. My .02.
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As instructor you don’t realize what is in the material and what the text books lack until you write your own power point for a private ground school.
 
You’ll really get use out of a sim when/if you do your instrument training. However it can still be somewhat useful at the PPL level. You can run through emergency procedures, instrument work like tracking VORs, unusual attitudes, etc.
 
jayhawk74 said:
IMO a simulator is great for instrument training, so good in fact that I used it for more hours than the FAA allows to be credited because in the long term it saved the student time and money. I wouldn't use it for training a private student, especially initially, because I would want that student to learn to fly with his eyes outside the aircraft not staring at the panel.
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I would second this. A Redbird simulator does not replicate well enough what you need to learn at the primary private level. It's fine for the instrument rating, but it's useless for the private. Ok, not quite useless, but it has very limited utility, and really only helpful for a few specific topics, like emergency procedures, VOR navigation practice, or maybe radio work. Maybe a few limited other topics.
 
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I just spent a couple of hours in a redbird full motion last Saturday afternoon to do G1000 KAP 140 transition training, and shoot a couple of approaches to familiarize myself with all of the button pushing and knob turning. I found it to be useful for all of the above. I only spent 1 hour in a sim during primary. I found little to no benefit for me personally during primary training.
 
I've done a lot of simulated flying, and some of it has helped. I had a lot of pre-solo time before I started simulating, so I knew at least what I should be practicing.

It took about 2 hours of flying before I started looking outside the cockpit more than inside. Also, I flew the sim enough for things to slow down for me, but as far as I can tell, that slowing down didn't transfer to the real plane.

Also, you're always sitting solidly in your chair at a simulator, unless it's full motion, and I doubt any Redbird an FBO can afford would be full motion. Especially on take off, it feels like the plane (SportStar Max (LSA)) is balancing on ball bearings. I never got that from the simulator.

The SportStar has a Glass Cockpit, but it has a glare shield, which makes seeing it hard for me, because I'm 6'2". That's good, because I can't stare at it, and bad because it's not part of my scan, like any instrument in my simulator is.

I think it'll be good for practicing radio communications, though.
 
Rgbeard said:
Simulator for PPL? Really?

to what purpose?
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It would have some value for practicing flows that the student was having trouble with in flight, because the instructor can set up controlled scenarios, pause when necessary, and restart them quickly (so you could you repeat them many more times in the lesson). But agreed it couldn't be more than a supplement for real flying for the PPL.
 
Crashnburn said:
Also, you're always sitting solidly in your chair at a simulator, unless it's full motion, and I doubt any Redbird an FBO can afford would be full motion.
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We have a full-motion Redbird at my home field — they're not financially out of reach for a medium sized flying school, but the motion is garbage, and a lot of instructors just turn it off anyway.
 
I believe if an independent investigation was undertaken unbiased by corporate money and the investigation not impeded by the SAT FSDO, the Redbird claims and stats might be "interesting." Short of a very wealthy backer, I never could see how they could afford the kind of operation they had going. Someone very badly wanted them to succeed.
 
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