Red Flag or Over Reaction?

O

OU812

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Mar 13, 2021
Messages
18
Location
Middle Ga
Display Name
Display name:
OU812
So, I have my PPL and rent planes out of a school at my local airport. Another school just recently opened at an airport about 30min away from me. Their website is quite lacking in my opinion so I decided to contact them via email to get some information regarding their rates, planes, instructors etc. I got a reply rather quickly but it was not what I was looking for. I was never told exact amounts for their rental rates only that it was an amount less than the place I'm renting from now. I was also told they do not publish their overnight, or long term rental rates. They also declined to send me a copy of their rental agreement to look over. I was expecting to get some fact sheet via email with all of this on it. Heck I dont see why its not on their website like most places. I never had this kind of experience before. Last couple of places were more than willing to give me everything I asked for. In any event curious to hear the opinion of others. Does this sound shady or am I thinking too much into this?
 
I remember when red flags were up front cash “deposits” for block time.
 
sounds like a surefire way to keep prospective customers away. me? i'd take a pass.
 
shady af

they'll be gone soon or under new management. be ready to re-inquire.

the one exception I can think of is if they primarily cater to overseas 141 students, and renters just get in the way -- I have had places like that send a nonspecific "scram" message like you received. the better ones just deny rentals from the jump. you might be dealing with one of the not-better ones :)
 
I had one school do this when I was asking for multi-engine training rates. Their response was basically can you afford it, if yes then you shouldn’t ask, just pay. Some places really do a good job of milking the money and it does add up quickly.

Rates vary greatly so it’s important to call around and see what the rates are, and do they allow overnight or longer distance travel. I would want to see everything in writing to prevent misunderstandings in the future, especially for the insurance coverage.
 
Thanks everyone. Seemed shady to me but there are not a lot of options for me where I am. I hate having to book a week or more out if I want the plane for more than a couple of hours and hoping the weather cooperates. I end up missing a lot of good flying days and thought I could use this other place as a back-up option.
 
Rental pilots are not their main objective,they make the money on students. Rental pilots can’t be counted on in their income.
 
I don’t see how you they expect you to rent from them without this information.

if you’re interested, go pick up the rental agreement. You can’t sign it without a lawyer seeing it and they should be willing to give you the conditions.

the grass is rarely greener.
 
“We aren’t competent enough to handle the customer volume we have already, so if you aren’t willing to just do whatever it takes, you’re too high maintenance for us to handle anyway.”
 
frfly172 said:
Rental pilots are not their main objective,they make the money on students. Rental pilots can’t be counted on in their income.
Click to expand...
Our FBO/Flight Training Center does not make much on students OR rentals. Just a bit more than break even. We make money pumping fuel, especially jet fuel. Our goal with students is to create more pilots to keep selling fuel.
 
OU812 said:
I got a reply rather quickly but it was not what I was looking for. I was never told exact amounts for their rental rates only that it was an amount less than the place I'm renting from now. I was also told they do not publish their overnight, or long term rental rates. They also declined to send me a copy of their rental agreement to look over.
Click to expand...

If it's important to you, take a half hour drive to visit them in person and see if they will clarify. Give it the "smell test." If it smells fishy, walk away. In person perceptions are likely to be more helpful.
 
Unfortunately near where I live it's incredibly common for businesses even in 2023 to have websites that are either not maintained or have no useful info on them. It almost always takes a phone call at minimum to find anything out and, frustratingly, sometimes you just have to show up and talk to them in person. It might be that they have different pricing depending on if you're putting money down, joining a club, or something along those lines and don't want to try to explain that via email.

Don't get me wrong, I find it annoying as all get out that a business in the modern era won't communicate effectively via internet or phone but unfortunately it is what it is. It might be worth your time to show up and try to talk to someone.
 
When did they open for business? If it was very recently I'd just stay away and re-evaluate in a few weeks. The lack of a rental agreement should be a deal breaker, though, and they won't last long without one, IMHO.
 
TCABM said:
I remember when red flags were up front cash “deposits” for block time.
Click to expand...
Fell for that 30 years ago. Thought the flight school owner (that I worked for!) was my friend. Turns out she had a gambling problem.
 
dbahn said:
When did they open for business? If it was very recently I'd just stay away and re-evaluate in a few weeks. The lack of a rental agreement should be a deal breaker, though, and they won't last long without one, IMHO.
Click to expand...

Maybe soooo new that they don’t have that posted or available yet? We’re only hearing one side of the story here….
 
sooooo new they have no idea what they're charging their current renters? c'mon. there is incompetence aplenty in the flight training industry, but this ain't it.
 
Yeah, I too was thinking that maybe they are just so new they don't have their act together yet.....

or they want to cater to 141 training, or something like this....
frfly172 said:
Rental pilots are not their main objective,they make the money on students. Rental pilots can’t be counted on in their income.
Click to expand...
basically they might be afraid to say no thanks even if you don't fit their target customer base.
 
I wouldn't say "shady" yet, but more so not understanding common business practices. You want to attract customers there are two ways, build a better product, or sell a commoditized product at a lower cost with better service.

Just my $0.02 thought for the day.
 
IF they don't know what they want to charge, or what their rules are, they aren't open for business regardless if they say they are.

Reminds me years ago when I was buying a car. I asked the dealer what the out the door price was. He said that's not how people buy cars. I'd get the price after I bought the car. He said that with a straight face. Maybe there are those who gave him money that way. I was both amused and flabbergasted.
 
Well as some suggested, I went and paid them a visit to see in person what they offer. I met with the CFII and he was nice and laid back guy. Through talking I learned I'd be his first instrument student. He stated he would like to do cross countries and knock out the required items during the cross country. The planes are piper warriors I believe. Nothing really special about them. Only one they use for instrument training. It has a garmin 430 with WAAS. I met the owner briefly as he walked in as we were talking. First impression was not a good one seemed "a holish" and i felt like just a dollar sign to him. Got a copy of the rental agreement and some items were concerning. One item in big bold writing stated the pilot is responsible for all damage to aircraft. Ok to a point but apparently they get to decide what the damage is and who did it and will charge the mandatory credit card on file. That they have the right to cancel training at any time for any reason or no reason. No refunds. 50k insurance required which is basically replacement cost for the plane. 1hr fuel reserve minimum but must get pre-approval to buy fuel somewhere else and then if approved they will only reimburse 3.50/ gal.....and others

IDK seems like the contract really has you bent over with arbitration through an arbitor of their choosing. I'm thinking it's a pass for me. Which is unfortunate since they are the only place close by that does instrument training.
 
I understand it can be hard to make money honestly.
But I wouldn't sign anything from that place.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I would pass if I were you.
Click to expand...
I would run from that if I were you. So many bad things. A Garmin 430? Inexperienced instructor? YOU have to assume all liability for the plane? $3.50 a gallon reimbursement?

Tell me - the guy had a bad comb over, wore a leisure suit, drives a rusted out black Trans Am, and had a gold front tooth.
 
I'm going to give an alternate opinion.

First, it sounds like you got along with the CFI. That's a big deal in my opinion.

Your impression of the owner could be far different once you get to know him. For example, I live with a lot of pain. It shows on my face a lot of the time. Also, because it hurts for me to stand still, I am always in a rush. I'm pretty sure most people's casual first impression is I'm a sour-faced douche. However, I'm pretty sure my wife and friends would say differently. You don't know what's going on in the guys life and what issues he may be struggling with. Your first impression could be completely wrong.

As for the contract, give them a credit card that has a low limit. If you have renters insurance, you would likely get reimbursed for any damage claims. Also, what's in contracts, and what people do, are not necessarily the same. They are written to protect the owner but it doesn't necessarily mean they are going to enforce every little thing in it.

As for "no refunds", just don't pay anything in advance.

Of course every FBO is going to have the "cancellation at any time" clause. This is to protect them from irresponsible renters who may put them at risk.

The fixed fuel price is a new one, but I can see them not wanting to finance part of your flying by paying for higher fuel rates elsewhere. Pretty mush every GA FBO struggles to stay solvent. Every dime is important to them. In most cases they are barely breaking even.

I get the facts that contracts are scary and, in this case, they are all one way. Yet I don't really see a huge issue unless you have input from someone who has actually been screwed over by them.

If this is your only option, I would place greater weight on the fact you seemed to like the CFI. I would start flying with them and see how it goes. If it doesn't work out, you still have the hours logged towards your rating.
 
I rented from a place for a few years.

Owner's son had taken over the business from dad, and wasn't computer literate or knew/cared how to run it.

Billing was all based on a paper and pencil notebook next to the keys at an unmanned counter. That he couldn't reconcile.

No matter how many times I reminded him, it was a 50/50 shot if I even got billed for rental time.

I'm sure the maintenance was about the same, but it was cheap rentals for awhile until it went under.


Go see it in person and take a look. I have found that aviation businesses in general operate in a different reality (and decade) than the rest of the world.
 
Lndwarrior said:
If you have renters insurance, you would likely get reimbursed for any damage claims.
Click to expand...

Minus the deductible, which could be significant.

Lndwarrior said:
The fixed fuel price is a new one, but I can see them not wanting to finance part of your flying by paying for higher fuel rates elsewhere.
Click to expand...

We reimburse for fuel purchased elsewhere at the rate paid there, or our current rate, whichever is lower.
 
I understand where you're coming from, but it like there are a lot of red flags there.

My gut feeling is to make a hard pass on this flight school.

The fact that you'd be the CFII's first instrument student is not very encouraging either. I have heard stories of CFIs being very cautious w/ their first students (PPL or IR) which results in costing you many more training hours ($$$) than would be normal. Also, the CFII will be learning how to actually instruct IR student pilots. While I am sure they have lesson plans, and they are properly certificated by the FAA to be a CFII, there is always a learning curve when instructing in any material. Finding your groove as an instructor, as it were.

The vibe from the owner is another point of concern. You would expect most people will be on good behavior towards prospective clients. If his good behavior vibe is as described, I cannot think it will get better after he has your credit card information and your permission to charge it.

Then you have the language in the contract.

All of the above COULD be over reacting. The problem is, it could also be legit red flags.

By the time you find out, you could be in a world of financial hurt.

I would run, but perhaps you'll see it different. Either way, good luck getting your IR certificate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top