Reasons they uplift one at a time (norwegian cruise ship)

LongRoadBob

LongRoadBob

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The recent Norwegian cruis ship problem when the motors stoppped, all four. Ship was eventually towed to a port. Over like two days they had gotten around (I think it was) 500 people or so.

They had like 1500 passengers that needed to be off lifted to safety, and it was so slow going, because they were doing it one at a time.

The seas, the winds, the boat heaving to and from..I think I get it. It is a tough situation.
And I definitely am not thinking I figured something out no one thought of, in fact I'm sure everyone involved had at some point...

But I wondered why there wasn't a larger "cradle" or sling used that could take say 5 or 10 passengers at a time? I know there must be a reason, maybe winds and weight.

I have seen helicopters lifting in some pretty large things, like the electical towers out in the countryside, etc. heavy and big. Or water when putting out fires. Probably they need optimal weather for that?

So was just curious what is the hindrance from say lifting a smaller type "container" that maybe had seats, safety belts and could take 6 people at a time?
 
I've wondered the same. Was watching something on Smithsonian (or Science) and they were airlifting 12 guys off a life raft.. one at a time. There's got to be a reason, but given fuel concerns, conditions, etc., you would think you'd want to get as many people as you can at once and limit your exposure time

Looking forward to the feedback from others on this one
 
How many people are you comfortable killing at once?

I think the bottleneck may be getting them into the helicopter. They are going to do the method they are trained for unless really desperate.

Offshore man basket would work if they were just dropping them on another boat nearby. But i dont think they were.
 
I missed the situation; for some reason towing was not an immediate solution?
 
Keep in mind, when lifting larger things the helicopters rotors doing the work. When raising and lowering a cable there is a smaller winch motor doing the work. I'm no expert on winches, but something of that strength in a small package may be difficult to come by without a huge drain on the aircraft.
 
Tantalum said:
I've wondered the same. Was watching something on Smithsonian (or Science) and they were airlifting 12 guys off a life raft.. one at a time. There's got to be a reason, but given fuel concerns, conditions, etc., you would think you'd want to get as many people as you can at once and limit your exposure time

Looking forward to the feedback from others on this one
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Was thinking too that it seems like for the people being transported, it would also seem more comforting to be with others than alone, being lifted.
 
You're referencing two different things. A rescue hoist might have a serious restriction such as 600 lb weight limit. A cargo hook (sling load)/ floor attachment point operation will have a much greater capacity of thousands of lbs. Unless you’re talking military operations such as SPIES or old style STABO (attaches to hook / tie downs), you won’t be slinging multiple people to the bottom of a helicopter and letting them dangle in the breeze.
 
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Old97 said:
How many people are you comfortable killing at once?

I think the bottleneck may be getting them into the helicopter. They are going to do the method they are trained for unless really desperate.

Offshore man basket would work if they were just dropping them on another boat nearby. But i dont think they were.
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I’m not totally sure I am understanding the last sentence there, but I don’t think they had another boat nearby. I think they took them to shore.


Let'sgoflying! said:
I missed the situation; for some reason towing was not an immediate solution?
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Not totally sure, but at least one freight ship, I think nine on board personnel tried to assist as it was nearby, but the seas were so choppy IT was suddenly in trouble as well. Was listing heavily to one side and was in serious trouble. I think they finally towed it when the winds died down some.

Again, I’m sure there must be a reason. Guessing maybe winds were the big factor.
 
Seanaldinho said:
Keep in mind, when lifting larger things the helicopters rotors doing the work. When raising and lowering a cable there is a smaller winch motor doing the work. I'm no expert on winches, but something of that strength in a small package may be difficult to come by without a huge drain on the aircraft.
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The rotors do the work, one kilo or one thousand kilos.
 
LongRoadBob said:
The recent Norwegian cruis ship problem when the motors stoppped, all four. Ship was eventually towed to a port. Over like two days they had gotten around (I think it was) 500 people or so.

They had like 1500 passengers that needed to be off lifted to safety, and it was so slow going, because they were doing it one at a time.

The seas, the winds, the boat heaving to and from..I think I get it. It is a tough situation.
And I definitely am not thinking I figured something out no one thought of, in fact I'm sure everyone involved had at some point...

But I wondered why there wasn't a larger "cradle" or sling used that could take say 5 or 10 passengers at a time? I know there must be a reason, maybe winds and weight.

I have seen helicopters lifting in some pretty large things, like the electical towers out in the countryside, etc. heavy and big. Or water when putting out fires. Probably they need optimal weather for that?

So was just curious what is the hindrance from say lifting a smaller type "container" that maybe had seats, safety belts and could take 6 people at a time?
Click to expand...

I saw TV coverage of an elderly couple who were lifted together.
 
LongRoadBob said:
So was just curious what is the hindrance from say lifting a smaller type "container" that maybe had seats, safety belts and could take 6 people at a time?
Click to expand...
Helicopter hoists are weight limited. Depending on model is can handle one or two individuals. Secondly, I know of no current approved external hoist operating procedure that allows more than 2 people on a hoist and of those two one is usually a crew member. Back in the 80s several operators played with a big basket on a cargo long line to evacuate oil platforms in the North Sea(?) but I believe they could never get it approved by the local CAA. Regardless, helicopter SAR were never designed to evacuate an entire cruise ship, but they did do a great job with just 5 aircraft.
 
Weight limitations for the hoist. I flew assault for years and MEDEVAC for a couple. Cargo hook capacity (at least for the UH60), 8,000#; rescue hoist capacity: 600#.
 
No my dear, under no circumstances will I ever go on a cruise.


Sometimes the hoist itself is rated to a higher pulling force but due to its position far away fromt the helos CG it is limited to 600lb. More of an issue with 'smaller' helos used in hoist operations.
 
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bobmrg said:
I saw TV coverage of an elderly couple who were lifted together.
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Ok. All the reports here in Norway that I saw were that they could only lift one at a time.

Not disputing it, I just didn’t see it.

As for other posts here, I have some basic misunderstanding, as I mentioned, I don’t imagine I have an answer that is this simple that professionals haven’t considered. I’m sure there is a good reason for this, but what confuses me is I have seen reports, video, etc. of helicopters lifting what seems to be incredibly large and heavy objects like I mentioned, for instance power line towers, or water when fire fighting. Maybe thy have to have better wind conditions, or ogher factors.

Is it possible that Certain types of helicopters are designed with freight in mind? If so, why aren’t they used in rescue?

I’m sure there is a reason, but jut wanted to know what it is.
 
LongRoadBob said:
As for other posts here, I have some basic misunderstanding, as I mentioned, I don’t imagine I have an answer that is this simple that professionals haven’t considered. I’m sure there is a good reason for this, but what confuses me is I have seen reports, video, etc. of helicopters lifting what seems to be incredibly large and heavy objects like I mentioned, for instance power line towers, or water when fire fighting. Maybe thy have to have better wind conditions, or ogher factors.
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Those loads are lifted with a hook right under the CG or the helo, not a hoist that sticks out 12ft to the side from the CG and at the top of the cabin door. The hoist is trying to turn the helo on it's side and the pilot has to compensate with the cyclic. There are simply limits on how much force you can counteract while still keeping the helo straight above the victim.
 
cgrab said:
I got lifted out of a lake like that after a parachute jump into the water. I never drank so much at one time in my life. It was like being water boarded by a CH-46.
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I went to air assault school at Campbell and also skydived out of helicopters while in the army. Never did stabo though. I did watch the rangers practicing it at Hunter and Ft Stewart when I was stationed there. Looked like fun.
 
weilke said:
Those loads are lifted with a hook right under the CG or the helo, not a hoist that sticks out 12ft to the side from the CG and at the top of the cabin door. The hoist is trying to turn the helo on it's side and the pilot has to compensate with the cyclic. There are simply limits on how much force you can counteract while still keeping the helo straight above the victim.
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Sorry, I’m not totally following. Is there a reason that they couldn’t use a helicopter outfitted with the hook right under the CG? Imagining say a smaller container that could hold 6 or so people, enclosed, is there a helicopter that could lift that off of a ship that is roiling, in bad seas, with winds and gusts, with a hoist positioned under the CG and take it 10-20 NM and deposit it on land?

Why couldn’t they use a helicopter designed for freight? Is it too unstable? Too violent?

It went well this time, but it was so incredibly slow to the point where after two days it was around 1/3 of the total passengers lifted out. Risk vs. Risk.

Again, I am sure I don’t know enough, and there is a reason, but I just wonder why?

All boils down to, is there a more expedient way to offlift 1500 passengers from a cruise ship with no motor power, roiling in the sea, with a lot of wind and even more gusts, without significant increase in risk. Even the question sounds ridiculous, but even if they could lift out 2-4 people or more with each operation, it would have reduced the danger for many more if the ship sank. It’s risk management. I don’t know enough, but wondered.
 
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LongRoadBob said:
Sorry, I’m not totally following. Is there a reason that they couldn’t use a helicopter outfitted with the hook right under the CG?
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They could, but there wouldn't be a way to get the victim into the cabin. This was an unusual rescue as it was right off the coast. More commonly, those hoist rescues happen an hour flight time out in the ocean and you wouldn't be able to keep a victim on a long line for that time.

The forest service uses this to medevac injured wildland firefighters from the scene in the mountains. They suspend a rescuer and a 'stokes basket' from the external load hook of a small helicopter. But that's for a short hop to a staging area where the victim is handed to a ground ambulance or commercial medevac chopper, not for the trip to the hospital.

Imagining say a smaller container that could hold 6 or so people, enclosed, is there a helicopter that could lift that off of a ship that is roiling, in bad seas, with winds and gusts, with a hoist positioned under the CG and take it 10-20 NM and deposit it on land?
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Very few off shore medevac operations involve more than one victim. Maybe 5 guys off a fishing boat on a bad day. Evacuating a disabled cruise ship is very uncommon. This would be a complicated system for a very unlikely scenario.


The part I don't understand is why those cruise ships don't have a full up helipad. Well, I do understand because that would take up expensive top deck real estate. Still, every year the coast guard and MD state police has to hoist old guys with chest pain off cruise ships when there would be a safer way.
 
LongRoadBob said:
...

All boils down to, is there a more expedient way to offlift 1500 passengers from a cruise ship with no motor power, roiling in the sea, with a lot of wind and even more gusts, without significant increase in risk.
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Yes. It’s called not driving the boat into those conditions, which were forecast.
 
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weilke said:
They could, but there wouldn't be a way to get the victim into the cabin. This was an unusual rescue as it was right off the coast. More commonly, those hoist rescues happen an hour flight time out in the ocean and you wouldn't be able to keep a victim on a long line for that time.

The forest service uses this to medevac injured wildland firefighters from the scene in the mountains. They suspend a rescuer and a 'stokes basket' from the external load hook of a small helicopter. But that's for a short hop to a staging area where the victim is handed to a ground ambulance or commercial medevac chopper, not for the trip to the hospital.



Very few off shore medevac operations involve more than one victim. Maybe 5 guys off a fishing boat on a bad day. Evacuating a disabled cruise ship is very uncommon. This would be a complicated system for a very unlikely scenario.


The part I don't understand is why those cruise ships don't have a full up helipad. Well, I do understand because that would take up expensive top deck real estate. Still, every year the coast guard and MD state police has to hoist old guys with chest pain off cruise ships when there would be a safer way.
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Thanks fo that. Interesting! But wouldn’t a helipad have been useless in the seas with all the waves?

Is it possible that there is a better way but since it is so seldom it happens, there was a decision to not prepare for this type of accident?
 
TCABM said:
Yes. It’s called not launching into those conditions, which were forecast.
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But you still have to, or ought to have a plan B right? People make bad decisions, I’m wondering about the way a better response could happen.
 
LongRoadBob said:
Is there a reason that they couldn’t use a helicopter outfitted with the hook right under the CG?
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Most helicopters have a cargo hook that can lift 100s/1000s lbs of cargo. The issue is not the capability of the helicopter but the CAA approval to do that type of lift. In the US, Part 133 Rotorcraft External Load Operations classifies external loads in 4 categories: A, B, C, D. Category D involves human cargo as an external load. Norway has a similar regulation but I'm unable to find it at this moment. Bottomline, its the Norway CAA approval that prevents the ability for operators to sling load people out in mass. Some countries like Canada have regulations that allow the use of the helicopter cargo hook to be used for human external movement and use it on a regular basis, but I've never seen any large groups of people moved externally except for military ops which aren't required to follow civilian regulations.

LongRoadBob said:
All boils down to, is there a more expedient way to offlift 1500 passengers from a cruise ship with no motor power,
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There is, and has been for 100's of years. They're called life boats. If that ship had been another 50/100 miles offshore the helicopters would not have even been an option.
 
If there is ever a 'good' place to stuck on a disabled cruise ship, its right off the coast of norway. With the off-shore oil industry, they had ready access to multiple hoist equipped helicopters and crews certified to use them. In addition to norwegian public SAR, they had commercial helicopters participate in the airlift:

https://dallasinnovates.com/irving-...pivotal-role-in-norwegian-cruise-ship-rescue/
 
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