Reasons they uplift one at a time (norwegian cruise ship)

[TCABM]

But you still have to, or ought to have a plan B right? People make bad decisions, I’m wondering about the way a better response could happen.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I would expect a sea-going Captain of a commercial touring ship to demonstrate better judgment than to roll the dice for 1500 passengers.

 

[Matthew]

Thanks fo that. Interesting! But wouldn’t a helipad have been useless in the seas with all the waves?

There are some pretty good Youtubes of helicopters landing on pitching decks.

It's probably safer to stay clear and hoist out one or two at a time instead of trying to land, load, and take off multiple times under those conditions.

 

[wilkersk]

I was a helicopter rescue swimmer/crew chief in the Navy for 16 years. So, I'm gonna go out on a limb and give an opinion. However, more knowledgeable people feel free to disagree.

I suspect it has to do with the equipment available of the responding assets and their primary specializations. I suspect there aren't many units skilled at doing 1,500 pax evacuations from a ship which is dead in the water and rolling in heavy swells. And rescuing people is a very politicised and publicized activity. So, any rescue attempt will be done with a great deal of precision by units with lots of very focused training.

Its really very dangerous to land a helo on a ship dead in the water in heavy swells. More dangerous than being on the ship in the first place unless its sinking.

We did one at a time hoists because there are just too many moving parts to hoisting someone off a moving deck. And in our helos, the person on the hook doesn't come up high enough to be able to pull them in without a bit of effort. 2 getting 2 untrained non-crewman through the door would be quite a challenge. We frequently would have a swimmer on the hook for rescue victims, so that they could manage equipment and help get everything through the door.

The Coast Guard uses a basket. But, I don't believe I've ever seen them put more than 2 (not large) people in it at a time. I don't know for sure, but I think there would be some trade offs to having the basket system.

 

[Velocity173]

Simple solution would be to tow it into shore. I would’ve volunteered for the job and saved them a fortune.

 

[wilkersk]

After listening to the news story, it looks like they were just trying to get as many as possible off safely, incase surface assets couldn't get them in tow before the ship hit the rocks. Once surface assets were on scene the helos quit hoisting people off.

I've launched on a couple at sea "rescues" only to end up circling overhead while surface assets made the pick up. Least hazardous means is the operational mantra.

 

[cgrab]

I went to air assault school at Campbell and also skydived out of helicopters while in the army. Never did stabo though. I did watch the rangers practicing it at Hunter and Ft Stewart when I was stationed there. Looked like fun.

We called it SPIE-Special Patrol Insertion Extraction. I don't ever recall using the word fun. Cold, wet and 70 knot winds out of the water. If you were the bottom guy coming out of the woods you almost always got dragged through the tops of the trees.

 

[3393RP]

I believe 30ft seas had something to do with it.

That and not having a suitable towing boat immediately on hand, like a 3,000 HP tugboat. I imagine the nearest harbor with such a boat was hours away at 12 knots.

Then there's the matter of successfully establishing a messenger line and securing a towing hawser between the ship and boat. I doubt there's a cruise ship crew afloat that has the manpower and knowledge to accomplish this.

I suppose a crew of longshoremen could have been dropped aboard. But where would one find these longshoremen trained as a group and equipped for the task?

 

[3393RP]

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I would expect a sea-going Captain of a commercial touring ship to demonstrate better judgment than to roll the dice for 1500 passengers.

Because weather conditions have never been substantially different from forecasts.

The ship's captain does not make decisions in a vacuum.

Cruise ship operators have meteorologists on staff, and dispatchers with concomitant authority use company operations procedures to determine if sailing dates and routes should be changed due to forecasts.

 

[GRG55]

Seriously! I would hate to be the last guy on a sinking boat being airlifted off

Compared to the alternative, I'd probably be quite thankful...

 

[IK04]

Here's How it works:

The internal hoist on a CH-47 uses the hydraulic winch, which can pull thousands of pounds, but because it is attached to the roof of the cabin, it is limited to 600 pounds.

The external Breeze-Western hoist is smaller and also has a 600 pound limitation, due to the smaller size of the hydraulic components.

The SPIES and FRIES systems are known as "fastrope" and are used for depositing special operators onto rooftops and tight places. One way ticket down...

The Breeze hoist can use a basket for one or two people, but a pararescueman must go along for the ride, so that 600 pounds gets used up fast.

So, a barge or boat with a huge crane and a six-man basket is the most you can move off a boat unless you use dinghies or survival boats and a rescue boat. That gets messy...

 

[IK04]

Tell us more.

During the evacuation of U.S. non-combatants from a major city somewhere in the Asia/Pacific Region, We laid cargo straps across the floor in loops and safely restrained 53 women with lap babies. Weight was not a factor, but any more and they could not be properly restrained.

I won't tell you about the 88 skinnies we moved in Haiti...

That's all a rumor, anyway.

 

[Velocity173]

Here's How it works:

The internal hoist on a CH-47 uses the hydraulic winch, which can pull thousands of pounds, but because it is attached to the roof of the cabin, it is limited to 600 pounds.

The external Breeze-Western hoist is smaller and also has a 600 pound limitation, due to the smaller size of the hydraulic components.

The SPIES and FRIES systems are known as "fastrope" and are used for depositing special operators onto rooftops and tight places. One way ticket down...

The Breeze hoist can use a basket for one or two people, but a pararescueman must go along for the ride, so that 600 pounds gets used up fast.

So, a barge or boat with a huge crane and a six-man basket is the most you can move off a boat unless you use dinghies or survival boats and a rescue boat. That gets messy...

SPIES would work for an extraction though. Only problem in this case is these people have no training whatsoever. That and the fact that dangling from a line for miles after already going through a traumatic event ain’t the best idea. Also, by the time they get briefed and strapped in, you could’ve hauled that many up one by one and had them in a warm cabin.

What they need are life boats that are completely covered, hold about 20 people and have attachment points for a sling.

 

[TCABM]

Because weather conditions have never been substantially different from forecasts.

The ship's captain does not make decisions in a vacuum.

Cruise ship operators have meteorologists on staff, and dispatchers with concomitant authority use company operations procedures to determine if sailing dates and routes should be changed due to forecasts.

Cruise lines reserve the right to change your itinerary in due to weather in their contract of carriage.

I expect the captain to exercise their expert judgement, based on the information available, Kust as I expect an airline captain to adjust rouitng, delay, hold, or divert when the weather conditions warrant.


I’ll be interested to see the Norwegian Accident Investigation Board’s final report, as they announced the event would be investigated “ "the high risk which the ship, its passengers and crew were exposed to“.

 

[SCCutler]

I'm still confounded at a ship of this scale in which all four propulsion systems fail.

 

[3393RP]

I'm still confounded at a ship of this scale in which all four propulsion systems fail.

I have no idea how those big diesels are set up, but fuel seems an obvious culprit. Maybe the fuel centrifuges failed? Or perhaps the rough seas caused fuel sloshing in inadequately baffled tanks and unported the fuel suction devices.

An electrical failure seems less likely, because there is more than one generation and distribution source.

I guess it's like aviation, we wait for the report.

 

[3393RP]

Cruise lines reserve the right to change your itinerary in due to weather in their contract of carriage.

I thought that's what I said.

I’ll be interested to see the Norwegian Accident Investigation Board’s final report, as they announced the event would be investigated “ "the high risk which the ship, its passengers and crew were exposed to“.

I haven't read any reports about the forecasted weather and if that forecast was incorrect. It certainly does seem inexplicable that the ship was sailed into such a severe storm.

 

[LongRoadBob]

I have no idea how those big diesels are set up, but fuel seems an obvious culprit. Maybe the fuel centrifuges failed? Or perhaps the rough seas caused fuel sloshing in inadequately baffled tanks.

An electrical failure seems less likely, because there is more than one generation and distribution source.

I guess it's like aviation, we wait for the report.

Yes. Since it is here, we have a lot more news coverage but it's a lot like airplane disasters, with varying degrees of accuracy on what is reported and how.
Some article a few days ago talked about the cooling system being common to all four engines. If I understood correctly it has a seawater intake that is used for cooling and in choppy seas there can be tendancy to get air in the lines, which decreases cooling. They mentioned (seems they had a technical advisor or talked to one in this report) two inlets, one up high for when docked, one lower for choppy seas. I didn't understand that part.

Also something about the fuel, and sludge in the area.

But yeah...waiting for the report. They ought to have a decision fairly soon I think.

Thanks for all that helped me try to understand why they couldn't take more than one at a time. I'm still not sure, but seems like it is a combination of helicopter types they had, available equipment, etc.

 

[TCABM]

I haven't read any reports about the forecasted weather and if that forecast was incorrect. It certainly does seem inexplicable that the ship was sailed into such a severe storm.

According to this meteorologist:

The chain of events began the ship losing and engine and taking on water though It’s unclear which was the root cause. The end result is a ship that lost all four engines in some of the worst sea conditions.

It’s been reported by a Norwegian paper the cruise ship bypassed a port while underway that all other passenger ships were using as a safe harbor due to the weather forecast.

 

[weilke]

I'm still confounded at a ship of this scale in which all four propulsion systems fail.

Most of those cruise ships are diesel-electric with banks of generators and electric motors in pods. They are also quite flatf bottomed and require steerable wings and ballast tanks to remain uupright.Many systems have to work for the ship to remain safe. This is not like the big container ships that have one slow turning engine and a direct drive prop.
One way for ships to lose propulsion in heavy seas is for water and sludge getting stirred up in the tanks. There are fuel centrifuges and filters to keep this from happening, but as with any mechanical system, s___ happens.

 

[3393RP]

According to this meteorologist:

The chain of events began the ship losing and engine and taking on water though It’s unclear which was the root cause. The end result is a ship that lost all four engines in some of the worst sea conditions.

It’s been reported by a Norwegian paper the cruise ship bypassed a port while underway that all other passenger ships were using as a safe harbor due to the weather forecast.

Thank you for posting the weather information. Until one of these storms hit the US two weeks ago, I had never heard of a "bomb cyclone" which is apparently an unusual confluence of conditions which produces an almost immediate and significant drop in atmospheric pressure coupled with overall rotation of the storm system.

 

[LongRoadBob]

Thank you for posting the weather information. Until one of these storms hit the US two weeks ago, I had never heard of a "bomb cyclone" which is apparently an unusual confluence of conditions which produces an almost immediate and significant drop in atmospheric pressure coupled with overall rotation of the storm system.

Here in Norway instead of "bomb Cyclone" they just call it...tuesday.


;-)
Nah, I kid.

 

[LongRoadBob]

Conference right now, they are saying it was low oil pressure. Translating from the story...

The level of oil in the tanks was inside the acceptable levels, but still relatively low when the ship went out to Hustadvika.
The tanks were equipped with a levels alarm, but these had not alarmed when it got to Hustadvika. The heavy sea there, it is believed, caused such large movment in the oil tanks that the oil pump lost its supply. This caused an alarm for low oil pressure to alarm, which then caused an automatic shutdown of the motors a short time after.

«Nivået av smøreolje på tankene var innenfor fastsatte grenser, men relativt lavt, da fartøyet gikk ut på Hustadvika. Tankene var utstyrt med nivåalarm, men disse hadde ikke blitt utløst da fartøyet gikk ut på Hustadvika. Den tunge sjøen på Hustadvika medførte trolig så store bevegelser i tankene at smøreoljepumpene mistet tilførsel. Dette utløste alarm på lavt smøreoljetrykk, noe som igjen førte til automatisk nedstenging av motorene kort tid etter», står det i pressemeldingen.

Also mentioned that the ship was about 100 meters from grounding...that one of the crew got one motor running enough to get them out deeper again.

Also, regarding the weather..." Some have said the ship shouldn't have attemted crossing. But this is a ship that is over 200 meters long and 10 meters wider than the "hurtigruta" (another big ship that travels up and down the coast with turists). We went through the ....not sure about translating this...the planned route? with crew beforehand and all went as it should. Up until we had no motors running. According to him it was the captains' decision to sail in accordance with the advice he got from the two norwegian pilots that were on board. "There were no problems up until the motors stopped"".

Noen har sagt at skipet ikke skulle gått over. Men dette er et fartøy som er over to hundre meter langt og ti meter bredere enn hurtigruta. Vi gikk gjennom seilasen med besetningen på forhånd og alt gikk helt som det skulle - inntil vi var fri for motor, sa Lockert til nettavisa Vesterålen Online.

Ifølge ham var kapteinenes avgjørelse om å seile i tråd med de rådene han fikk av de to norske losene som var om bord.

- Det var ingen problemer fram til motorene stanset, har Lockert fortalt.

So, still not hearing why one at a time, and also why they couldn't top off the oil, restart the engines. Guess that will come later.

 

[SoonerAviator]

. . . So, still not hearing why one at a time, and also why they couldn't top off the oil, restart the engines. Guess that will come later.

I don't feel like that (adding oil) is something you do while underway. I'd think the oil tanks would be filled while at port, as opposed to keeping dozens of drums of oil on hand. Likely no way to fill them once underway, and I'm sure there are some electronic safeguards in place to prevent engine start if oil level falls below a certain level.

 

[Velocity173]

So, still not hearing why one at a time, and also why they couldn't top off the oil, restart the engines. Guess that will come later.

We just told you why they take one (or two) at time. The hoist isn’t rated to take large numbers of people at once.

You brought up electrical towers and water baskets (Bambi Bucket). Those are heavy items. Those are items that are attached to a CARGO HOOK and not a HOIST. Two different things, rated for very different weights.

Take a typical US Coast Guard rescue helo such as an HH-60. It’s hoist is only rated to reel in 600 lbs. That’s at most a swimmer and pax in a basket. The aircraft also has a cargo hook in the bottom rated to 8,000 lbs. While you could sling load 8,000 lbs of people on the cargo hook, 1) there is no legal way of doing it in the civilian community, 2) any sort of lengthy transport distance would freeze the pax to death, 3) the speed restrictions (drag) would make for a very long flight and 4) if that helicopter has a serious mech failure, you and your best mates hanging in a cargo net, are screwed.

I hope that clarifies why it’s better to reel in one pax at a time vs slinging 20 below the aircraft. Slinging people is designed for military ops, not civilian.

 

[Matthew]

Unless the question is: "Why haven't cruise lines come up with a way to get groups of people off the ship instead of only 1-2 at a time by helicopter?"


You're not getting too many people at a time on that winch:

but loading a dozen or more pax into a cargo net attached to the belly? That would be a heckuva ride.

 

[TipTanks]

 

[Witmo]

That’d make you the captain.

Unless you were Italian; Italian Captains abandon ship early so that they can coordinate the rescue ashore. At least that's the story one Italian cruise ship Captain gave authorities at his trial.

 

[SkyDog58]

Normally helicopter rides, adventure outings, etc. are an up sell for cruises, these folks got it for free. Bonus!

 

[Zeldman]

Unless you were Italian; Italian Captains abandon ship early so that they can coordinate the rescue ashore. At least that's the story one Italian cruise ship Captain gave authorities at his trial.

Is there a maritime rule or law that states the captain must remain on the ship while it is sinking.??

 

[weilke]

So, still not hearing why one at a time, and also why they couldn't top off the oil, restart the engines. Guess that will come later.

Maybe its because the rescue hoist is typically rated at 600lbs ?

Helicopter hoists are weight limited. Depending on model is can handle one or two individuals. Secondly, I know of no current approved external hoist operating procedure that allows more than 2 people on a hoist and of those two one is usually a crew member.

Weight limitations for the hoist. I flew assault for years and MEDEVAC for a couple. Cargo hook capacity (at least for the UH60), 8,000#; rescue hoist capacity: 600#.

Sometimes the hoist itself is rated to a higher pulling force but due to its position far away fromt the helos CG it is limited to 600lb. More of an issue with 'smaller' helos used in hoist operations.

Most helicopters have a cargo hook that can lift 100s/1000s lbs of cargo. The issue is not the capability of the helicopter but the CAA approval to do that type of lift. In the US, Part 133 Rotorcraft External Load Operations classifies external loads in 4 categories: A, B, C, D. Category D involves human cargo as an external load. Norway has a similar regulation but I'm unable to find it at this moment.

Here's How it works:

The internal hoist on a CH-47 uses the hydraulic winch, which can pull thousands of pounds, but because it is attached to the roof of the cabin, it is limited to 600 pounds.

The external Breeze-Western hoist is smaller and also has a 600 pound limitation, due to the smaller size of the hydraulic components.

The SPIES and FRIES systems are known as "fastrope" and are used for depositing special operators onto rooftops and tight places. One way ticket down...

The Breeze hoist can use a basket for one or two people, but a pararescueman must go along for the ride, so that 600 pounds gets used up fast.

 

[Witmo]

Is there a maritime rule or law that states the captain must remain on the ship while it is sinking.??

I understand that tradition calls for the ship's captain to be the last to leave a sinking ship. Is it a law? Some believe that rank carries with it responsibility even if there is no legal requirement. Captain Sullenberger was the last person off his aircraft sinking in the Hudson. The Italian Costa Concordia Captain was a coward. One year of his sixteen year prison sentence was for abandoning his passengers so there must be some maritime rule concerning a Captain's responsibilities concerning his crew and passengers.

 

[LongRoadBob]

Maybe its because the rescue hoist is typically rated at 600lbs ?

I saw those, but it was mentioned other types of helicopters with different hoists could lift more weight. Or did I dream that?

 

[weilke]

I saw those, but it was mentioned other types of helicopters with different hoists could lift more weight. Or did I dream that?

Typically, helicopters have a stationary hook under the belly that attaches to beefy parts of the structure straight underneath the main transmission. This hook is strong enough to carry the entire lifting capacity of the helicopter. This is where things like antennas, air-conditioners or cargo nets are attached using suitable rigging.

SAR helicopters typically have a hoist mounted on a outrigger outside and above the door. It spools a thin steel cable or kevlar rope to lower and raise a rescuer and/or a basket. This hoist typically has a capacity much lower than the helicopters overall lifting capacity. This limitation is based on:
- the airframe structure the hoist is attached to
- the capacity of the hoist itself
- limitations on the force the helicopters controls can generate to keep it balanced with a load suspended outside of the center of gravity/lift.

I am sure there are examples of large helicopters with hoists of a higher capacity, but for the most part they seem to be limited to carry 1 rescuer and 1 victim or 1 victim and 1 basket.



With suitable paperwork and training in place, there are situations where the cargo hook can be used to evacuate a victim over a short distance. To my knowledge, at least in the US, currently most if not all of those operations are done by 'public use' or military operators. The pictures below are from 'Fire Aviation' and show a rescuer and a packaged backboard suspended under the cargo hook of an AS350 light helicopter. But this is a short distance operation to move a victim from the mountain to a staging area and would not work to move a victim a long distance such as from a ship that is off-shore or in inclement weather.






https://fireaviation.com/tag/short-haul/

 

[Gerhardt]

A thread about both boats and flying. Where's Henning when you need him?

 

[SCCutler]

A thread about both boats and flying. Where's Henning when you need him?

Hydrogen, baby.

 

[IK04]

Hookers rule! Pachyderm 44 out.

Playtex/Varsity 04. Roger.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

The thread title seems like a David Brin novel.