ready for the "told ya so"

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Matt C

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Matt C
I thought I had an airplane purchased. I gave a 20% deposit to hold it until we could do the annual pending no major issues. Set up a hangar rental. Bought insurance.

First of all, thank you for all of the input and/or support!

We were finishing the annual and checked the logs - didn't match what we were told. Found a discrepancy, started digging, found 2500 more hours on the airframe than what was advertised and discovered it has a 5100 hour engine 1500 SMOH. As advertised, I thought it was 3500 TTAF/1500 SMOH. Very different picture. I am super disappointed but glad to have caught the discrepancy.

I know some said "save your money and buy a good one". I'm wondering though - if this could be had for "disposable pricing" would it be worth it? If it could be had for say $10,000 or so and we don't do any improvements and run it till it quits, it pays for itself at around 90 hours or less in our rental market - much sooner if I was to rent nice airplanes. It did get a clean bill of health at the annual other than the books. No corrosion and no mechanical issues besides a fuel gauge inop.

Interested to hear thoughts again....

Regards.
 
Just out of curiosity, were the logs correct but just misrepresented in the ad? Not that it matters much, I suppose.

I'm a bit of a layperson in the ownership realm, but am headed down a similar path pretty soon. If it were me, I'd try to negotiate a better price based on the higher time and that it was misrepresented. Otherwise, maybe a 1500SMOH engine is still a 1500SMOH engine, and the additional time doesn't really matter?

One of the resident experts should be along shortly to offer up further advice/guidance.
 
AWACSEng said:
Just out of curiosity, were the logs correct but just misrepresented in the ad? Not that it matters much, I suppose.

I'm a bit of a layperson in the ownership realm, but am headed down a similar path pretty soon. If it were me, I'd try to negotiate a better price based on the higher time and that it was misrepresented. Otherwise, maybe a 1500SMOH engine is still a 1500SMOH engine, and the additional time doesn't really matter?

One of the resident experts should be along shortly to offer up further advice/guidance.
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Logs were legitimate and the math worked. It was initially misrepresented to me.

Lesson learned - start with the books not the plane.
 
Hi Matt.

If it is a Cessna, that really isn't all that many hours. Don't forget, you are looking at fairly old airplanes. Ours has around those times, but I would not sell it for $10,000. It sounds like the airplane has a clean bill of health. Notwithstanding the mixup on what you were told versus the logs, I would still talk to the owner and see if you can come to a mutually acceptable arrangement (that is if you like the plane and are still interested in buying it). If it has been flown regularly,, you could likely just keep doing that.
 
I don't see the "very different picture" in this scenario. Hardly anyone puts the engine TT on a for-sale ad. There's no inherent malice to the absence of that piece of information. If you're willing to concede it wasn't a matter of the seller actively attempting to con you, then 2500 hours of airframe time doesn't really have that much of an impact on the viability of the airplane as a personal toy or whatever it is you're trying to do with it.

As to the 5100 TT engine, assuming airframe time matches engine time is simply not a reasonable thing to expect on 40+ year old airframes. People swap engines all the time, that also isn't a red flag for me as a buyer.

Are you concerned a second run engine isn't gonna pass the crank? That's essentially what you'd be quibbling over on a second or third run engine. And if the the crank and/or cam has been replaced, then you're really quibbling over nothing, especially if the engine is NA.

This comes down to physical condition of the airframe and avionics. If you had the airframe in airworthy condition and the avionics the way you want, you'd be a fool to pass it up because of X+2500 hours of airframe time. You can go get the same airplane for 2500 hours less and no avionics, and now you're up to 25-50% of the purchase price in avionics alone, i.e. you've automatically overpaid for the airplane. If this was an experimental that delta wouldn't exist, but for certified, you'd be a fool to pass up avionics already installed.

All that said, type and price matters. What are we talkikng about here, an SR22 or a cherokee 140? It matters, especially as engine price begins to match or overtake the full purchase price. If this is your run of the mill spam can, you just went too uppity for the market. These things are old man, you have to be more accepting of the nuances if you want to go flying... unless you're one of the moneyed "professional grade" Ricardos from the SR22 vs Ovation thread of course... :D
 
One other thing, Matt. With a 2000 hour TBO, that leaves you 500 hours before you get there. It takes a good while to fly that many hours for most of us. Too many other things that have to be taken care of. It wasn't clear to me whether the airframe has 5100 hours or the engine has 5100 hours with 1500 SMOH. The O-300 is a good engine.
 
Hi Hindsight2020. I think this is the 1966 C-172G that Matt talked about in his other thread. It was advertised for $20k.
 
If the seller is that dishonest, it's best to avoid the airplane altogether even if you could get it for $10,000. This discovery you mentioned would clinch it for me.
 
I wouldn't take it outside of buying it by the lb for the market value of aluminum and the core for the engine.

I sure as heck wouldn't saddle up to it, ever.

Who knows what else happened to it and was lied about, little oops is one thing, that was a whole nother matter, F' that noise.
 
Sorry to hear this Matt. :(

Color me old school, but honesty is very important to me. If I had the impression that the seller intentionally lied to me, I'd immediately walk away from the deal. If I felt that it was a honest mistake, I might give him another chance, but be even more careful about other squawks, as I would be concerned that the owner didn't really care about the plane and had only stuff fixed when it was absolutely necessary.

Matt C said:
[...] 1500 SMOH [...]
Click to expand...

TBO is 1800 hrs. Even though the engine doesn't necessarily have to be overhauled at 1800 hrs, there is also quite a chance that it will not even make it there. Check the logbooks, but I would bet that the overhaul is at least 30 years old. Other than wine, gaskets don't get better over time. Over so many years, it is also quite likely that the plane sat for a while, what might have led to corrosion inside the cylinders: Borescope the cylinders and have the compression checked.

Expect at least $19,000 for the overhaul of the O-300 + the other stuff which needs to be done along with it, like magnetos, carburetor or hoses.

Don't get frustrated - even if you decide to not buy this plane, you will be able to find another one in your price range.

Oliver
 
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Yup tons of sellers and brokers hide the real condition and when you dig deeper the gremlins surface! That is why due diligence and a solid prebuy are crucial.
 
Thanks to all for the input. He let me take the logs for the weekend and we are meeting on Monday to refund my deposit or renegotiate. I have had time to go through things more thoroughly and this is how the numbers are. TTAF is 6021 it all checks out. The engine on it now is the second engine for the plane. It was overhauled in 2002 by Americas Aircraft Engines Inc. at witch time TT on it was 3623. It was installed on the airplane at 4502 TTAF and now has 1519 SMOH making TTIS 5142. The engine, prop and airframe had last annual 8/2015 and all were approved. The numbers and dates in the logs all match back to 1966.

The discrepancy it seems was in advertised numbers vs. actual. I don't get the impression that he was lying to me but more that he hadn't paid attention. Hard to call personal integrity into question not knowing the person so I'm trying to stay neutral on that topic.

Given the current clean bill of health and matching numbers in the logs, how does one evaluate the worth of a cleanish airplane with a 5100 hour engine? How long do these things last and how many overhauls do they tolerate? I've seen decent looking airplanes at 10,000 hours but don't know anything about engine longevity. The first one lasted to 4502 and we don't know why it was decommissioned.
 
I would be wary of an undocumented overhaul.
There are overhauls, and then there are overhauls.
A bare minimums overhaul to service limits is not worth much.
 
mtuomi said:
I would be wary of an undocumented overhaul.
There are overhauls, and then there are overhauls.
A bare minimums overhaul to service limits is not worth much.
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Explain undocumented. Would it make sense to contact the shop and request info. for the serial number or work order? Is it reasonable to expect that after 14 years?
 
Matt C said:
Explain undocumented. Would it make sense to contact the shop and request info. for the serial number or work order? Is it reasonable to expect that after 14 years?
Click to expand...

By undocumented I mean an overhaul where the only info you can find is a log book entry. On my overhaul docs, I have all the work orders for every single part, the dimensions before/after and what was done to them. I know exactly what's turning inside my engine.
 
mtuomi said:
By undocumented I mean an overhaul where the only info you can find is a log book entry. On my overhaul docs, I have all the work orders for every single part, the dimensions before/after and what was done to them. I know exactly what's turning inside my engine.
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Gotcha - thanks. No, the engine was apparently purchased complete and installed as such.
 
Matt C said:
Gotcha - thanks. No, the engine was apparently purchased complete and installed as such.
Click to expand...

If the plane was priced with a runout engine, I don't see a problem - as always, be prepared with a $20 bill when the time comes to overhaul it. O-300 is not an expensive engine to overhaul, $20 should do.
 
mtuomi said:
If the plane was priced with a runout engine, I don't see a problem - as always, be prepared with a $20 bill when the time comes to overhaul it. O-300 is not an expensive engine to overhaul, $20 should do.
Click to expand...
First, an engine purchased from an overhaul company does not usually come with a complete set of documentation as to whether the crank/cam was cut or whether the pistons/jugs are standard or oversize.

Second, if you are willing to do an O-300 to new limits, or service limits for that matter for $20, I'll take two dozen of them. I'll have the money to you in small bills the day you overhaul the first one.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
First, an engine purchased from an overhaul company does not usually come with a complete set of documentation as to whether the crank/cam was cut or whether the pistons/jugs are standard or oversize.

Second, if you are willing to do an O-300 to new limits, or service limits for that matter for $20, I'll take two dozen of them. I'll have the money to you in small bills the day you overhaul the first one.

Jim
Click to expand...

The docs should say if it was done to new or service limits. If not, then I would assume service limits and give it 0 value when buying the plane.
My O-200 was done to new limits for around $13, O-300 is just 2 cylinders more and that's about it. This obviously assumes a serviceable crank/cam/case.
HOTW does O-300 for $13500. There's quite a lot of cash left for surprises before you hit $20.
 
mtuomi said:
My O-200 was done to new limits for around $13, O-300 is just 2 cylinders more and that's about it.
Click to expand...
but add the extra money for the rod and main bearings 4 more lifters, 1500 more for a crank grind. 4500 for a cam kit. yeah it just two more cylinders yep you bet.
 
Matt C said:
I thought I had an airplane purchased. I gave a 20% deposit to hold it until we could do the annual pending no major issues. Set up a hangar rental. Bought insurance.

First of all, thank you for all of the input and/or support!

We were finishing the annual and checked the logs - didn't match what we were told. Found a discrepancy, started digging, found 2500 more hours on the airframe than what was advertised and discovered it has a 5100 hour engine 1500 SMOH. As advertised, I thought it was 3500 TTAF/1500 SMOH. Very different picture. I am super disappointed but glad to have caught the discrepancy.

I know some said "save your money and buy a good one". I'm wondering though - if this could be had for "disposable pricing" would it be worth it? If it could be had for say $10,000 or so and we don't do any improvements and run it till it quits, it pays for itself at around 90 hours or less in our rental market - much sooner if I was to rent nice airplanes. It did get a clean bill of health at the annual other than the books. No corrosion and no mechanical issues besides a fuel gauge inop.

Interested to hear thoughts again....

Regards.
Click to expand...
I'll wager it was n't 5100 hours since major.
Messed up books are plentiful, nice aircraft not so much.

You should have bought the aircraft, thrown the books away start a ADlog set of new books and go fly.
 
Tom-D said:
but add the extra money for the rod and main bearings 4 more lifters, 1500 more for a crank grind. 4500 for a cam kit. yeah it just two more cylinders yep you bet.
Click to expand...

So we're not far off $20k then. Obviously if you need a new cam, price will go up.
 
Tom-D said:
I'll wager it was n't 5100 hours since major.
Messed up books are plentiful, nice aircraft not so much.

You should have bought the aircraft, thrown the books away start a ADlog set of new books and go fly.
Click to expand...
5142 TTIS - 1519 SMOH. I re-posted exact hours above. I combed through the log books today. Post number 14 clarifies what I have learned.
 
Matt C said:
Thanks to all for the input. He let me take the logs for the weekend and we are meeting on Monday to refund my deposit or renegotiate. I have had time to go through things more thoroughly and this is how the numbers are. TTAF is 6021 it all checks out. The engine on it now is the second engine for the plane. It was overhauled in 2002 by Americas Aircraft Engines Inc. at witch time TT on it was 3623. It was installed on the airplane at 4502 TTAF and now has 1519 SMOH making TTIS 5142. The engine, prop and airframe had last annual 8/2015 and all were approved. The numbers and dates in the logs all match back to 1966.

The discrepancy it seems was in advertised numbers vs. actual. I don't get the impression that he was lying to me but more that he hadn't paid attention. Hard to call personal integrity into question not knowing the person so I'm trying to stay neutral on that topic.

Given the current clean bill of health and matching numbers in the logs, how does one evaluate the worth of a cleanish airplane with a 5100 hour engine? How long do these things last and how many overhauls do they tolerate? I've seen decent looking airplanes at 10,000 hours but don't know anything about engine longevity. The first one lasted to 4502 and we don't know why it was decommissioned.
Click to expand...

Uhh, are we talking a P-51, BF109 or something here?

Unless this is some crazy rare aircraft, why are you even still debating buying it?!


This should be your reaction to this "deal"
giphy.gif
 
James331 said:
Uhh, are we talking a P-51, BF109 or something here?

Unless this is some crazy rare aircraft, why are you even still debating buying it?!


This should be your reaction to this "deal"
giphy.gif
Click to expand...
Trying to gather information, thanks. I introduced myself recently as a low time PP and I'm trying to learn from a more experienced group. I don't know squat about a 5100 hour engine vs. a 4673 hour engine vs. a 7890 hour engine. I hope to find some valuable commentary to help me make a more informed decision. I realize I don't have the budget to work with that some of you do and am trying to make positive and safe decisions about weather or not I can pursue this as a hobby. I accept that this tests the patience of more experienced members here and I appreciate whatever help anyone is willing to offer. If I can purchase at the right price and put an engine on it in the near future and stay near market value, this is still an interest to me as the airframe and avionics are in reasonable condition. I don't know if I am looking at a scrap value engine right now or an overhaul-able engine or a serviceable for a while engine. As of Saturday, it appeared to be in reasonable condition. I haven't ejected yet because I don't often see 172's in my price range that look as nice as this one and are as well equipped and are closer to Michigan than Arizona.
 
Matt C said:
Trying to gather information, thanks. I introduced myself recently as a low time PP and I'm trying to learn from a more experienced group. I don't know squat about a 5100 hour engine vs. a 4673 hour engine vs. a 7890 hour engine. I hope to find some valuable commentary to help me make a more informed decision. I realize I don't have the budget to work with that some of you do and am trying to make positive and safe decisions about weather or not I can pursue this as a hobby. I accept that this tests the patience of more experienced members here and I appreciate whatever help anyone is willing to offer. If I can purchase at the right price and put an engine on it in the near future and stay near market value, this is still an interest to me as the airframe and avionics are in reasonable condition. I don't know if I am looking at a scrap value engine right now or an overhaul-able engine or a serviceable for a while engine. As of Saturday, it appeared to be in reasonable condition. I haven't ejected yet because I don't often see 172's in my price range that look as nice as this one and are as well equipped and are closer to Michigan than Arizona.
Click to expand...

The thing is - no-one is able to tell what that engine has inside it. The hours simply don't contain that information. They have a direct correlation to fair market value though. Based on the facts in evidence, I would price it as runout. If you buy the plane at $20, and have to put in $20 tomorrow for the engine, do you think you have a $40 plane? If answer is "yes", then it is worth buying. If "no", then there is risk involved. Risk is always a personal thing, can you afford to overhaul it tomorrow without going bankrupt (note: many people finance overhauls, only the machos here claim otherwise, but can you make those payments)?.
I would go in assuming the engine needs an overhaul tomorrow, and would be very happy for every hour I get out of it before needing to do it. Engines tend to tell you well in advance when they need that overhaul. If stars align perfectly, you could get 500-800 hours of service out of that engine. If you are unlucky, you have to overhaul it tomorrow.
It's just the nature of the game.
 
Matt C said:
Trying to gather information, thanks. I introduced myself recently as a low time PP and I'm trying to learn from a more experienced group. I don't know squat about a 5100 hour engine vs. a 4673 hour engine vs. a 7890 hour engine. I hope to find some valuable commentary to help me make a more informed decision. I realize I don't have the budget to work with that some of you do and am trying to make positive and safe decisions about weather or not I can pursue this as a hobby. I accept that this tests the patience of more experienced members here and I appreciate whatever help anyone is willing to offer. If I can purchase at the right price and put an engine on it in the near future and stay near market value, this is still an interest to me as the airframe and avionics are in reasonable condition. I don't know if I am looking at a scrap value engine right now or an overhaul-able engine or a serviceable for a while engine. As of Saturday, it appeared to be in reasonable condition. I haven't ejected yet because I don't often see 172's in my price range that look as nice as this one and are as well equipped and are closer to Michigan than Arizona.
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Dude..this is a 172!!


And buy it, and let me know who inexpensive it was after a year or two when all the other stuff, that I'd wager you a beer, this airplane has wrong with it. This airplane is actually a VERY expensive airplane.

Look nation wide, you can work most of the deal remote thanks to camera phone and the Internet, find a local APIA to do the prebuy, ask here for recommends, once you find a good one, it's the most common plane on earth, no issue finding someone for a prebuy or a nice 172, then fly down and bring her home, that will be one of the most memorable flights of your life, I promise!

I could open any 3 hangars on any given airport and find a 172!


The seller is ether trying to scam you, or is a idiot, and they have been in charge of this aircraft, as a buyer their motive doesn't matter, what you found is more than grounds to walk, god only knows what other little gems lay in wait inside this airplane for you.

What you uncovered isn't a little "oops" there ain't no coming back from a finding like that.


There are TONS of 172s for sale, it sounds like you're trying to make this work, it's a turd, move on, tell us what you're looking for, we could atleast point you in a good direction, and honestly ANY direction is better then the direction you're heading with this deal.
 
mtuomi said:
The thing is - no-one is able to tell what that engine has inside it. The hours simply don't contain that information. They have a direct correlation to fair market value though. Based on the facts in evidence, I would price it as runout. If you buy the plane at $20, and have to put in $20 tomorrow for the engine, do you think you have a $40 plane? If answer is "yes", then it is worth buying. If "no", then there is risk involved. Risk is always a personal thing, can you afford to overhaul it tomorrow without going bankrupt (note: many people finance overhauls, only the machos here claim otherwise, but can you make those payments)?.
I would go in assuming the engine needs an overhaul tomorrow, and would be very happy for every hour I get out of it before needing to do it. Engines tend to tell you well in advance when they need that overhaul. If stars align perfectly, you could get 500-800 hours of service out of that engine. If you are unlucky, you have to overhaul it tomorrow.
It's just the nature of the game.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your thoughts...

If I make an offer I think it would be as you indicated above - market value minus $20K.

You suggest that there are sometimes(?) tells "well in advance". In your experience what might those tells be? As I mentioned, the complete annual checked out ok.
 
James331 said:
Dude..this is a 172!!


And buy it, and let me know who inexpensive it was after a year or two when all the other stuff, that I'd wager you a beer, this airplane has wrong with it. This airplane is actually a VERY expensive airplane.

Look nation wide, you can work most of the deal remote thanks to camera phone and the Internet, find a local APIA to do the prebuy, ask here for recommends, once you find a good one, it's the most common plane on earth, no issue finding someone for a prebuy or a nice 172, then fly down and bring her home, that will be one of the most memorable flights of your life, I promise!

I could open any 3 hangars on any given airport and find a 172!


The seller is ether trying to scam you, or is a idiot, and they have been in charge of this aircraft, as a buyer their motive doesn't matter, what you found is more than grounds to walk, god only knows what other little gems lay in wait inside this airplane for you.

What you uncovered isn't a little "oops" there ain't no coming back from a finding like that.


There are TONS of 172s for sale, it sounds like you're trying to make this work, it's a turd, move on, tell us what you're looking for, we could atleast point you in a good direction, and honestly ANY direction is better then the direction you're heading with this deal.
Click to expand...
Your emphatic "DUDE" got a chuckle out of me. I appreciate your position, I think you've been there from the start.

I guess I am trying to make it work. I got excited at the prospect of getting in for around $20k originally. Then I got excited about the prospect of getting in for far less. Just trying to make sure there isn't an angle to make this work. I guess I'm catching on thanks to everyone's persistence.

What I am looking for - I have around $25k to spend comfortably and I have decided that a 172 would fit my use parameters well. 150s are undersized. I don't need a pretty interior, I would prefer a decent exterior to help stave off degradation of the airframe. I won't have money for paint for quite a while. Maintenance and hangar budget are no problem.
 
To find a $25k 172 that doesn't eat you alive requires a healthy dose of luck. You can find a workable PA28-140 for that budget though, Perhaps you should look that way?
 
Matt C said:
Thanks for your thoughts...

If I make an offer I think it would be as you indicated above - market value minus $20K.

You suggest that there are sometimes(?) tells "well in advance". In your experience what might those tells be? As I mentioned, the complete annual checked out ok.
Click to expand...

Catastrophic engine failures are very rare. By and far most overhauls are triggered by excessive oil consumption, engine starting to "make metal" or other creeping symptoms.
 
mtuomi said:
So we're not far off $20k then. Obviously if you need a new cam, price will go up.
Click to expand...
Depends -- "A" model? if the crank is bad you just scrap the engine and upgrade to the "D" for the "D" plan and extra 2500 for the starter drive. cylinders are now at a grand each. and always replace the lifters & hydraulic units with new, case re-work is 750.00 if the gears fail they are 2500 each. You can look up the part prices at Aircraft specialities Services. Need a new crank? add 8k.
average market price now about 25k.
 
mtuomi said:
To find a $25k 172 that doesn't eat you alive requires a healthy dose of luck. You can find a workable PA28-140 for that budget though, Perhaps you should look that way?
Click to expand...
Not as excited about fuel pumps and passengers having to work the door. I have flown one - I like the feel and the visibility....
 
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