Ramp Checked

what does a ramp check accomplish?
Does it make the airways safer?
Does it make the pilots safer?
Does it make the planes safer?
 
Cruiser said:
what does a ramp check accomplish?
Compliance with duties of inspector.

Does it make the airways safer?
Maybe, depending on the results of the check.

Does it make the pilots safer?
Maybe, depending on the pilots' understanding they might be subjected to one.

Does it make the planes safer?
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Maybe, depending on the condition of the plane. If all are perfectly maintained, probably not.
 
RotorAndWing said:
The FAA has that right to check your license anytime they desire through law.
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The police can't do that with out cause. why should the FAA have the right to do any thing with out cause?

If I am doing nothing wrong why should you contact me ?
 
Because you agreed to the terms when you accepted the card?

Tom-D said:
The police can't do that with out cause. why should the FAA have the right to do any thing with out cause?

If I am doing nothing wrong why should you contact me ?
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wabower said:
Because you agreed to the terms when you accepted the card?
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does that make it right?

just one of those things that the big bully government makes us do.
 
You want rights you gotta waive rights geez it is so simple. Fill out the form and freedom is yours, the form is for the children. If I didn't know better I'd think you guys were tea party terrorists.
 
ClimbnSink said:
You want rights you gotta waive rights geez it is so simple. Fill out the form and freedom is yours, the form is for the children. If I didn't know better I'd think you guys were tea party terrorists.
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Um... You mean you want privileges you're supposed to waive rights? No. Rights and privies are distinctly different things.

Not sure what that last sentence means, but adding the word "terrorist" is a nice propaganda move.

Most of what I've seen here in this thread is Constitutionalists, haven't seen any of the Tea Party's stated goals mentioned.

Towers, ramp checks, a whole lot of government "stuff" has to get a whole lot smaller to not borrow $0.42 on every government dollar spent. Has nothing to do with any political Party. Just basic math.

The politicians will howl and whine and print more money, but it all must get smaller or the economy must get a whole lot bigger. The Boomers are retiring. It's not a desire of any one group, so much as a numerical inevitability.

The reason Towers go first is known as the Washington Monument Syndrome. Google that. Basically if you stop doing things the public wants, they'll whine and cry and ask you to keep doing them, while you've created a diversion from them noticing you're doing things they don't want.
 
Yep. Some we like better than others. Aren't you glad they're still making all those young'uns make their social security payments for us to live on?

Tom-D said:
does that make it right?

just one of those things that the big bully government makes us do.
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I don't mind an occasional check if it's done reasonably. You always hear about the ones where they start unnecessarily digging. There are folks flying without a current medical and that don't take care of their plane. Always difficult to weed out the problem makers, but it has to be done somehow. I've never had a problem but a couple of good friends that flew in air shows gave me concerns.

Best,

Dave
 
Been ramped twice. Both times non events. One of them the inspector couldn't see the airplane's numbers from the angle he walked up. I'm sure he wished he hadn't picked me. We were in Michigan but the airplane was wearing ZS registration. I had to help him sort through the paperwork, he didn't know where to start.
 
Everskyward said:
I've only been ramp checked 3 times, once when mapping, once doing instruction and once when Part 135 in a Lear. All were non-events. All were at small airports. Two of those times were in Nebraska.
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That does not surprise me. The Lincoln FSDO is full of Nazis. :lol:
 
Geico266 said:
That does not surprise me. The Lincoln FSDO is full of Nazis. :lol:
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I wouldn't call them Nazis. One instance was a LONG time ago (mid 1980s) the other was mid 2000s. They were both courteous and didn't take any time at all, maybe 5 minutes.

I can see why they might have been attracted to the mapping airplane because it was obviously modified.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I don't mind an occasional check if it's done reasonably. You always hear about the ones where they start unnecessarily digging. There are folks flying without a current medical and that don't take care of their plane. Always difficult to weed out the problem makers, but it has to be done somehow. I've never had a problem but a couple of good friends that flew in air shows gave me concerns.

Best,

Dave
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I really couldn't care less if people fly without a medical, I hope the FAA isn't doig it on my behalf. Could you imagine the uproar if the feds required a third class medical to buy a gun? The forced to submit to a pseudorandom federal ramp check while they pumped fuel in their car?
 
RotorAndWing said:
No different than a police officer asking to see your license.
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Police generally need a reason to pull you over and ask for your license unless it's a checkpoint type scenario.
 
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wickedsprint said:
Police generally need a reason to pull you over and ask for your license unless it's a checkpoint type scenario.
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Which the state of Texas has recognized as unconstitutional.
 
wickedsprint said:
Police generally need a reason to pull you over and ask for your license unless it's a checkpoint type scenario.
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This is why some ramp checks are illegal. They are usually based on a complaint by someone wanting to get even or just cause trouble for someone else. Rarely, are they random no matter what you may think. Years ago the FAA was chastized and odered to stop going to EAA fly in's and ramp checking everyone there just becuase. Overly agressive enforcement of a select group is illegal and they got nailed for it.
 
I've been ramped on several occasions, and it has never been a big deal. However, in the back of my mind I am still seething at the railroading of Bob Hoover by the Oklahoma City FAA.

The FAA perpetrators of that crime, FAA inspectors Mr. Kelln and Mr. Boehler, have never been punished. These criminals were on a witch hunt.
 
Geico266 said:
This is why some ramp checks are illegal. They are usually based on a complaint by someone wanting to get even or just cause trouble for someone else. Rarely, are they random no matter what you may think. Years ago the FAA was chastized and odered to stop going to EAA fly in's and ramp checking everyone there just becuase. Overly agressive enforcement of a select group is illegal and they got nailed for it.
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An argument could be made that police checkpoints are much the same. Something has to cause the decision to conduct a "random" checkpoint; sometimes, it's a habitual problem, but often, it's something else. The habitual problem might be enough to justify the random checkpoint, and it would likewise be enough to justify "random" ramp checks.

There is no question that a "random" call to the FAA about a violation may or may not have merit, but the same is true about a call to the police. In either case, there would have to be some level of investigation and determination of the merit of the complaint. It's also true that there are bad cops and bad FSDO inspectors who are out to get someone, but thankfully I do not believe that to be the case with most of them.

The question over funding is a separate one. The current administration has admitted, in writing, that their intention is to make the sequestration cuts (which they advocated for, by the way) as painful and visible as possible to the general public. Could we instead eliminate truly mind-boggling, invisible pet project wastes in government that one knows about as an alternative to closing towers and laying people off? Sure, but then there would be zero justification to ever fund those mind-boggling pet project wastes ever again. There is no question that we need to massively cut federal spending, but one party doesn't get it, and the other party doesn't have the will to do it, so these types of political games are played as a result.


JKG
 
wabower said:
Want to sit with me at ASE while:

1 Reviewing the tracker for destination
2. Watching the amount of time the fuel truck sits in front of the plane
3. Counting pax and baggage being loaded, and
4. Guessing how many planes are within weight and balance limits?

Is the honor system a better option?
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I'd love to. I bet I know what we'll see, just as I've seen at a number of airports in a number of different airplanes.

The problem is that the current system means that ramp checks are exceedingly rare, I'd say likely too rare to do any good. I've had one ramp check, back at 65 TT with a still paper pilot cert. The general consensus seems to be that many people go their whole flying careers with minimal checks. So, this leaves two groups:

1) The group who are afraid of getting ramp checked and will follow the rules. But those are the people who probably think the tail will fall off if they're 1 lb over gross, and will follow the rules anyway.

2) Everyone else.

So, to me the FAA either needs to step up ramp checks to convince those who knowingly break the rules to stop, or they might as well stop doing it altogether and save the money for something more useful.
 
DavidWhite said:
Which the state of Texas has recognized as unconstitutional.
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Not entirely correct. They are allowed if they follow certain guidelines set by the legislature. Last I read, the legislature had not set any guidelines. Catch .22.
 
JGoodish said:
There is no question that we need to massively cut federal spending, but one party doesn't get it, and the other party doesn't have the will to do it, so these types of political games are played as a result.


JKG
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The simple bottom line reason neither party will cut the spending in any meaningful way is because they know the day they do, is the day the riots start.

If the 47% will demonstrate on Wall Street, stop their welfare checks and see what they do.
 
Tom-D said:
The simple bottom line reason neither party will cut the spending in any meaningful way is because they know the day they do, is the day the riots start.

If the 47% will demonstrate on Wall Street, stop their welfare checks and see what they do.
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So what happens when the money runs out and the government can't borrow any more?
 
Tom-D said:
stop their welfare checks and see what they do.
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joker.gif
 
wabower said:
Yep. Some we like better than others. Aren't you glad they're still making all those young'uns make their social security payments for us to live on?
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Wait til they're all in control and pull the plug on us, which they'll have every right to do based on the "you created this mess...don't make us pay for your stupidity" theory! :yes:
 
I would think that determining which regulation the flight was being operated under world be important. It's also some thing that can't be determined by checking a computer.

Flying for the airlines has exposed me to the FAA more than most. I generally don't have an issue and things are pleasant.

Ramp checks are no big deal for those that follow the rules.
 
Following the rules is the key word to this thread........

Back when I was learning to fly I was based at a sleepy little airport in Apopka Fla ...X04..... Well, actually Zellwood.... Of the 40 or so planes and pilots based there, 95% of them NEVER had a pilots certificate.... In fact I co -owned that airport a couple of times during bank takeovers and missing owners and I can tell you stories that would make your head shake so violently you would get whiplash....:rolleyes:..

The FAA would stear clear of the place because they didn't have enough ink in their pens and forms in their briefcases to document all the (issues).:eek:....
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
I'd love to. I bet I know what we'll see, just as I've seen at a number of airports in a number of different airplanes.

The problem is that the current system means that ramp checks are exceedingly rare, I'd say likely too rare to do any good. I've had one ramp check, back at 65 TT with a still paper pilot cert. The general consensus seems to be that many people go their whole flying careers with minimal checks. So, this leaves two groups:

1) The group who are afraid of getting ramp checked and will follow the rules. But those are the people who probably think the tail will fall off if they're 1 lb over gross, and will follow the rules anyway.

2) Everyone else.

So, to me the FAA either needs to step up ramp checks to convince those who knowingly break the rules to stop, or they might as well stop doing it altogether and save the money for something more useful.
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I can't imagine the FAA doing anything useful on purpose.
That would be almost impossible.
 
N801BH said:
Following the rules is the key word to this thread........

Back when I was learning to fly I was based at a sleepy little airport in Apopka Fla ...X04..... Well, actually Zellwood.... Of the 40 or so planes and pilots based there, 95% of them NEVER had a pilots certificate.... In fact I co -owned that airport a couple of times during bank takeovers and missing owners and I can tell you stories that would make you shake your head so violently you would get whiplash....:rolleyes:..

The FAA would stear clear of the place because they didn't have enough ink in their pens and forms in their briefcases to document all the (issues).:eek:....
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I'd like to hear some of those if you're up to it.
 
bartmc said:
Wasting people's time, forcing your way into their aircraft, accusing them of crimes and just generally ****ing people off. Sounds like an enjoyable job.
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So, please cite one instance where I "forced my way" into someone's aircraft or accused anyone of a "crime"???

And for the record, how many times have you had a ramp check by the FAA?
 
Tom-D said:
The police can't do that with out cause. why should the FAA have the right to do any thing with out cause?

If I am doing nothing wrong why should you contact me ?
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Go read 49 USC 44709. In fact I think you got to experience an application of that law recently.
 
Florida Cracker said:
I can't imagine the FAA doing anything useful on purpose.
That would be almost impossible.
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I think the FAA does plenty that's useful, and as far as government agencies go, I think it's one of the better ones.

My issue with ramp checks is that they are clearly not a sufficient deterrent to stop people from breaking the rules, and it is also impractical to step up enforcement to the point where it would stop. I doubt if anyone more would break the rules without the threat of ramp checks, so to me it makes more sense to just investigate problems when there's cause to.
 
RotorAndWing said:
So, please cite one instance where I "forced my way" into someone's aircraft or accused anyone of a "crime"???

And for the record, how many times have you had a ramp check by the FAA?
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You did a ramp check. Walk up without the power of federal laws backing you up and see how pleasant the experience goes. If you don't suspect them of a crime, why bother them? Seems like an awful waste of time to investigate people not suspected of doing anything?

Me personally? None. I have watched them stir up @#$%^ at my airport before. My rig was locked in the hangar.
 
RotorAndWing said:
The "point" is that it is a sampling to insure properly rated people are operating aircraft. No different than a police officer asking to see your license.
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Well, it sounds good but of course - it's incorrect. Any and all LEO need a probable cause to pull you over in your car and ask for your license. Further, a cop can stop you when you're walking down the street and 'ask' you for ID. You do not have to provide it. Nor can any LEO compel you to talk with them, or give them any info without probable cause.

Standing next to a Us registered aircraft, on a public or private airport does not meet the reasonable test for probable cause. They get away with it, because no one has yet seen fit to test it. Shock! No one who doesn't fly their own plane cares even remotely enough to challenge it. If/when it is challenged, eventually it will get before a just judge and will be ruled unconstitutional. For now, we just have to bend over and take it.

Google 'sovereignty', good reading.
 
docmirror said:
Well, it sounds good but of course - it's incorrect. Any and all LEO need a probable cause to pull you over in your car and ask for your license. Further, a cop can stop you when you're walking down the street and 'ask' you for ID. You do not have to provide it. Nor can any LEO compel you to talk with them, or give them any info without probable cause.

Standing next to a Us registered aircraft, on a public or private airport does not meet the reasonable test for probable cause. They get away with it, because no one has yet seen fit to test it. Shock! No one who doesn't fly their own plane cares even remotely enough to challenge it. If/when it is challenged, eventually it will get before a just judge and will be ruled unconstitutional. For now, we just have to bend over and take it.

Google 'sovereignty', good reading.
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Go read the differences between administrative law vs civil law, good reading.
 
I'm actually ok with ramp checks as long as the inspector is reasonable. There are a lot of yahoos out there that fly around without licenses, medicals, BFRs, etc. Maybe ramp checks catch some of those wackos. I certainly hear them (or don't) all the time on CTAF at the airport I am based out of.

Now get off my lawn!!! :yawn:
 
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