Ramp agent reprimanded for reporting MX issue

Cloudhound said:
He found something alright, AFTER he stuck his nose where it didn't belong.

How far do you want him digging???
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I'm not concerned about what he might have done, or how far he could have gone. I'm referring to what he actually did. He opened a hatch, looked in, and closed it. Not....that....hard. It doesn't need a secret handshake or a decoder ring to operate properly. Sure, maybe he shouldn't have done so. But the harm in it is a far cry from other things like climbing into the hydraulic bay and retorquing fittings or resetting differential pressure indicators but that is not what he did. The potential for harm of his actions are minimal, at best. Maybe he deserves a stern talking to but that's about it.
 
As a former 737 pilot at another airline, we were never taught, nor required to open ANY hatches on the airplane. I really appreciate rampers keeping an eye out for anything that could have been missed (externally), but I also trust our mechanics to do their periodic inspections.
 
Many years ago I worked as a bag chucker for a regional airline. There were two occasions I brought something to the attention of a flight crew member. Once was to tell them I saw what might be a hydraulic leak in the right engine nacelle/main landing gear well (turned out I was right). The other was to tell the captain that I couldn't help but notice that the engines on a CRJ were free wheeling in the wind and sounded like s*** (a loud clattering sound). He explained that was normal when the wind was from behind and spun the engines backwards.

We had one captain who I looked up to very much. Always a pro and very polite to us knuckle draggers. But I noticed once that if you chatted him up he would ask you to service the lav. If that doesn't deter a ramper from getting eye contact, nothing will.
 
I used to work the ramp for a discount airline. This story stinks to high heavens.

There is no way this idiot 'looked down the pitot' anything. On a 737 they are at least 10-12 feet in the air.

Second, opening an engine cowling? That should get you fired right then and there.

To the people who think this jabrony did a good thing... you are fools. The number of systems that would have to fail to let an engine run out of oil is staggering. You do not want student pilot wannabe's (or anyone) opening panels and poking around. Does he know how to properly secure the panel? A nacelle panel is a large and complex mechanism. Even if it was the smaller inspection panel he has no business opening it.

But since this a made up MSFS wannaby's wet dream, no one has anything to worry about.
 
dreyna14 said:
I see a lot of posts here that seem to be more, "Listen to me as I'm an authority," than any sort of, "Let's see what we can learn from this." Really, no one cares how long you worked for whom and on what. The OP found something, asked a question, and MX addressed it. If it was a case of the engine being shut down for too long, therefore, the sight glass give an erroneous indication, then maybe MX would have stated such and case closed. If MX looked at it and thought, "Oh, s**t, we should deal with that," then I think the OP did the right thing, training, or no training. See something, say something. If it's nothing, then so be it, and get off your high horse.
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So you want the random guy who just marshalled you to a tie down to pull your spark plugs just to make sure they are gapped properly? Or check your oil without knowing the proper level per the checklist?

With over a hundred people on an airliner (737?) do you think that a random student MSFS pilot has the ability to open an engine panel and check anything? What if he accidentally damaged a loop fire sensor? Or the panel opens and causes the nacelle to fail?

There is no way to justify OPs actions. If anything he broke the FARs as he performed preventative maintenance while not authorized. He was not the owner/operator nor a certificated mechanic nor supervised by a certificated mechanic.
 
bflynn said:
A couple of years ago I saw a club member climb into their airplane one cold morning. From my angle with the light shining on it, it looked like the wings were coated with ice. I knew on my own plane, my wings were iced but it was hard to see. But to stay in my lane, I should have just let them fly off with iced wings, right? They would probably have been ok, even with 1/8" of ice on the wings. I mean, not my barrel, not my monkeys.

And the line boy isn't my employee. But I would still want him to wave me down if he saw something bad.
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Totally different. If that guy had walked up to an aircraft you owned and opened the oil hatch to check your oil, would you be ok with that? I would not.
 
Salty said:
Totally different. If that guy had walked up to an aircraft you owned and opened the oil hatch to check your oil, would you be ok with that? I would not.
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if a random stranger walked up and started messing with your plane, nobody is ok with that. If an employee at a shop I’m paying for looked at the plane, even opened a cover and spotted something wrong, I would appreciate knowing. Let’s make a fair comparison.

the issue for the OP …(OT, original troll?) is that it’s 121 aviation. You can’t do anything maintenance related, especially if it isn’t in your job description.
 
"It's worth noting that, at no point in training, did they prohibit us from opening service panels."

I wonder what else they didn't prohibit?
 
PastZTL said:
"It's worth noting that, at no point in training, did they prohibit us from opening service panels."

I wonder what else they didn't prohibit?
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Well, whatever the airline didn’t prohibit, the FARs probably do.
 
bflynn said:
If an employee at a shop I’m paying for looked at the plane, even opened a cover and spotted something wrong, I would appreciate knowing. Let’s make a fair comparison.
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Okay. So if the secretary or janitor employed at your shop opened your cowling for a looksie you're okay with that? But I agree lets make a "fair" comparisons.
 
Geeze, we've got some despicable experts on here.

So he is an idiot wannabe msfs pilot troll that concocted this scheme since 2014?

I'll make this account on POA and I'll come back in 2022 and I'll really get them good!
 
How many of the FAA's "hazardous attitudes" are in play here?
 
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From Patty Wagstaff, more or less, no attitudes are hazardous if you've had the training and experience. Or was that "unusual"?
 
Bell206 said:
Okay. So if the secretary or janitor employed at your shop opened your cowling for a looksie you're okay with that? But I agree lets make a "fair" comparisons.
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:rolleyes:
 
I am surprised/not surprised at the difference of opinion between the pro pilots and the GA only pilots to this situation.
 
As PIC, I open and check inside every hatch opened by a non crew member.

This means if the line boy adds the quart of oil that I requested, I reopen the hatch and verify that the dip stick and filler cap are properly in place. I personally know pilots who made emergency landings due to one or the other of those items not being properly replace when the refueled.

The missing filler cap was not apparent until the oil pressure went to zero, with a forced landing in a pasture in Tennessee, and engine replacement there.

The pilot in this case needed to have a qualified Mechanic open the hatch, inspect, and properly close it, or he could not be sure that it would not open in flight.

Additionally, as posted by Sluggo, the oil in the sight glass is not a proper determination of safe level after the engine has cooled, so not relevant to safe flight. The electronic level gauges in the cockpit are the relevant measure.

I have had people turn a quarter turn fastener a half turn, and break it. With the cowl flat now un sequred, the plane could not be flown. Fortunately, this occurred at an airport with a mechanic on site, and he replaced the fastener, paid for by the FBO.
 
All I know is what SW employees said in this thread:

jayhawk74 said:
I flew for Southwest for 22 years and was told that the reason we didn't do walk arounds between flights was that the Rampers were "trained to do walk arounds". I had Rampers report issues to me, some were nothing and some were items that Maintenance needed to fix. Everytime I thanked the Ramper for bringing it to me attention.
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rpayne88 said:
Alright, so I work for Southwest.

Since the plane I was working on tonight was not due to depart anytime soon, I repeated the same process I'd done hundreds of times before- often times in full view of A&Ps and flight crew. (To which none objected.)

viewer

ryan.payne.581730

It's worth noting that, at no point in training, did they prohibit us from opening service panels. The only panels I opened that are not on a ramp agent's job description were the oil panels on each engine.
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Unless I'm misunderstanding things, ramp agents are trained to open certain panels it's just that "service panels" are not specifically on the checklist. That makes sense because service panels often contain controls for the service agent (fueler, etc.). But, really, if they can open and close other panels and "inspect" for obvious airworthy anomalies, it's pretty hard to believe an oil door is beyond their expertise. If it is beyond, then management really needs to address it in training. I don't see much of a crime here, but lots to commend for having an awareness for safety.
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I used to be a ramp rat in the 90s and the only hatches we were allowed to open, lav, water, air start, headset jack. Our walk around was limited to visually check nothing was left open just before pushback. The FO was usually out there doing his walk around and inspection.
Even now, I see people taking pictures of them sitting on the engine opening, I still remember my old boss made it clear to stay away from that area, and never sit in it. Just in case something fell out of your pocket and destroys a an engine.

I am guessing some of the people here praising the OP for saving a plane full of people from certain death have never worked the ramp.
 
dtuuri said:
Unless I'm misunderstanding things, ramp agents are trained to open certain panels it's just that "service panels" are not specifically on the checklist.
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I don't know SWA's procedures but I would not think that the rampers are trained to open any panels for preflight inspection. I don't open any panels when I do a walk-around on a 737 and I wouldn't expect the SWA rampers to do so, either. There is nothing behind panels that need to be preflighted by the pilots.

Panels that are opened by trained ramp personnel include the GPU & headset connection, PC air connection, air-start connection, potable water fill value, and lav dump connection--all are behind panels. The fueler opens the fuel service panel.

What the ramp workers can look for are leaks and damage.
 
Kent Wien said:
As a former 737 pilot at another airline, we were never taught, nor required to open ANY hatches on the airplane. I really appreciate rampers keeping an eye out for anything that could have been missed (externally), but I also trust our mechanics to do their periodic inspections.
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Do you wait for a warning light before checking oil levels? Are they below the indicator before the light comes on?
Oddly, I publish operating manuals for many of the engines used on airliners, but cannot find that little detail.
 
Bottom line, part 121 operations are strictly regulated. This falls under unqualified personnel performing maintenance functions not qualified, trained or authorized to do. This could open the airline to an investigation and a fine from the faa. I think they are justified to discipline the ramper. I thank a ramper any time they point something out and also explain why sometimes that it is noting to be concerned about. I have hade them point out some big issues. I one had one call up after the walk around and said there was a fuel leak under the plane. I figured it was water from the packs but went back down anyway. It was a fuel leak from the apu which wasn’t running when I did the walkaround. Good catch by him. But rampers cannot be opening panels they are not trained to open.
 
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"The PIC was clueless as to what the sight gauge was for, stating he had no annunciator in the cockpit and called maintenance"
I can assure you the PIC was not clueless. He or she just didn't want to get involved in what you'd done. I applaud your enthusiasm; but please don't touch anything you're not specifically trained and authorized to do. In GA do you preflight other peoples' planes? check fluids? Do you understand that can upset people and be potentially dangerous?
I hope your employer is wise enough to recognize your intent, but with respect, you're not trained on the 737 or CFM engines and shouldn't be poking around.
I'll always listen to ground crew pointing out things they don't like with a jet, and encourage them to speak up.
I had a chap come up to me a couple of days ago with a photograph of a missing baggage door panel. We knew about it. It was documented and the appropriate paperwork & performance pentalies had been applied. I'm very grateful he pointed it out; and told him so.
On the Airbus there are no panels we can open. To the contrary; panels left open or uncontrolled have caused serious incidents. Look all you want; but don't touch...
 
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Palmpilot said:
As a GA-only pilot, I know enough to pay attention to the posts of pro pilots.
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or apply Pournelle's law of experts: "If you don’t know what you’re doing, deal with those who do".
 
Larry in TN said:
Panels that are opened by trained ramp personnel include the GPU & headset connection, PC air connection, air-start connection, potable water fill value, and lav dump connection--all are behind panels. The fueler opens the fuel service panel.
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If the fueler left his panel open is a ramp rat allowed to close it during push back?
 
neilki said:
HELL NO
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Well, I would certainly hope somebody at least calls the fueler first. But if it can be ascertained the panel merely needs to be closed the question is, at SWA, can the "walk-around trained" ramp people close it without waiting for the fueler to drive all the way back from the fuel dump?
 
On airliners the Fueling Panel' is the access point to a fairly substantial computer console. Certainly on the Bus the panel being physically open sets a 'State' for at least 2 computer systems. They monitor and manage fuel distribution in multiple tanks. If you've a few hours to kill take a look! The act of opening that panel configures those systems to control the refuel or defuel process; and posts an indication on the Flight Deck. Mismanagement of the system could lead to fuel being vented. If we see an indication that panel is open when it shouldn't be; we call Operations to send the fueler back. they're trained on that panel.
My point; to you it looks like a metal flap a couple of feet square. to me its an ASAP, potentially several computer checklist procedures and a Mx delay. Again, really appreciate the extra eyes and ears. Only Mx and Fuelers can touch that panel...
 
neilki said:
On airliners the Fueling Panel' is the access point to a fairly substantial computer console. Certainly on the Bus the panel being physically open sets a 'State' for at least 2 computer systems. They monitor and manage fuel distribution in multiple tanks. If you've a few hours to kill take a look! The act of opening that panel configures those systems to control the refuel or defuel process; and posts an indication on the Flight Deck. Mismanagement of the system could lead to fuel being vented. If we see an indication that panel is open when it shouldn't be; we call Operations to send the fueler back. they're trained on that panel.
My point; to you it looks like a metal flap a couple of feet square. to me its an ASAP, potentially several computer checklist procedures and a Mx delay. Again, really appreciate the extra eyes and ears. Only Mx and Fuelers can touch that panel...
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Ok, I spent five minutes and noted this is an Airbus. SWA operates B-737s. The same thing? Also, fueling is automatic and a steady green light means it's complete. You gonna wait with passengers onboard and engines running for a fueler to drive over from the other side of the base/airport or have someone who opens and closes other similar panels do the deed?
 
dtuuri said:
Ok, I spent five minutes and noted this is an Airbus. SWA operates B-737s. The same thing? Also, fueling is automatic and a steady green light means it's complete. You gonna wait with passengers onboard and engines running for a fueler to drive over from the other side of the base/airport or have someone who opens and closes other similar panels do the deed?
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In this scenario? It would never happen because of the ecam message that panel door open presents.
But in a broader sense; yes. Absolutely. Even if I had a choice. Which I don’t ‍✈️
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Do you wait for a warning light before checking oil levels? Are they below the indicator before the light comes on?
Oddly, I publish operating manuals for many of the engines used on airliners, but cannot find that little detail.
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My operator has both CFM 56 variants and LEAP engines. Checking oil levels is part of a preflight processs. Every flight. The levels are defined in the aircrafts ‘limitations’ and must be memorized.
 
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