Radio Equipped vs. Not

[Coloradokevin]

There seem to be some folks who are intensely in favor of NORDO flying (possibly some in this thread). I'm not saying that NORDO shouldn't be allowed, but I personally prefer to have the greatest possible chance of knowing where other traffic is when I'm flying in the same sky as them. "See and avoid" sounds great on paper, but any of the mid-air collisions that have happened in the past prove that this doesn't always work. Will a radio always save you? No, it sure won't. It's just a tool, but it's one I certainly like to have at my disposal when I'm in an airport environment.

NOTE: I get it, some old planes don't have radios, or even electrical systems. I just don't understand the guys who have panel mounted radios, but fly with them turned off while landing at public airports. To me, that's even sillier than flying at night with your lights off in an airport environment.

 

[Stewartb]

The first time you have a near miss in the pattern with any airplane radio or not you'll become more vigilant about looking for those other guys. Some guys that have radios don't use them very well. Misinformation is more dangerous than no information. Just because you hear another plane talking doesn't relieve you from visually finding him. Apply that same care for guys who aren't talking. Assume they're out there.

No radio planes usually don't have recognition lighting either. Double whammy. Flying a standard pattern helps provide time and angles for you to see them whether the other guys fly a good pattern or not. Guys that do long straight-ins to uncontrolled strips are what scares me most. They're betting on assumptions.

 

[MAKG1]

No radio planes usually don't have recognition lighting either. Double whammy. Flying a standard pattern helps provide time and angles for you to see them whether the other guys fly a good pattern or not. Guys that do long straight-ins to uncontrolled strips are what scares me most. They're betting on assumptions.

How do you recommend instrument approaches?

It's possible to approach an uncontrolled field in the soup, break out at 700 AGL, above minimums, and immediately encounter legal VFR traffic right below the cloud deck. At least in daytime. And often in a nonradar environment.

And virtually all instrument approaches are "long straight ins."

 

[Stewartb]

None of that instrument stuff where I fly. Instead of dissing my comment perhaps you might offer a solution???

 

[MAKG1]

None of that instrument stuff where I fly. Instead of dissing my comment perhaps you might offer a solution???

As much as it threatens some people's manhood, it simply is not possible to see and avoid under all circumstances without using a radio properly. The solution is obvious. Use a radio properly.

 

[Palmpilot]

Sharing paternity? I'm intrigued. Go on. =D

I believe Grover Cleveland did that once.

 

[luvflyin]

I was hoping this guy was going to write about his experience with a NORDO traffic mid air collision and he did.

Great read: http://airfactsjournal.com/2016/01/surviving-mid-air/

So, you know, get a damn radio!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good job keeping his cool and landing safely. I'm really wondering about something though. He is on final, the NORDO Pitts enters downwind in front of two other aircraft in the pattern that had been following the Cherokee on final. Did they see the Pitts? If either of them did, did they see the Pitts turning and descending onto the Cherokee?

 

[James331]

How do you recommend instrument approaches?

It's possible to approach an uncontrolled field in the soup, break out at 700 AGL, above minimums, and immediately encounter legal VFR traffic right below the cloud deck. At least in daytime. And often in a nonradar environment.

And virtually all instrument approaches are "long straight ins."

This doesn't happen very often. I can't recall ever breaking out at a altitude like 700 and seeing a plane right infront of me.

If it's 2k OVC and there is a flyin at a airport, yeah probably a couple J3s not talking, but I'll breakout well outside of the pattern they are flying.

 

[TonyG]

I'd have to look, but I think I'd be hard pressed to find a field with an IAP that had minimums below 700' that didn't have class E to the surface. If it's class E to the surface and 700', no legal VFR traffic. SVFR required.

Regardless, I've never had this happen either. VFR? Eyeballs, eyeballs, eyeballs, fly predictably, and watch for those that aren't.

--Tony

 

[luvflyin]

It's NTSB ID: ERA15LA084A

The Pitts enters downwind then makes a "descending base and final" not establishing on final until 1000 feet from the runway. Sounds like a 180 to the runway instead of a base leg followed by turn to final. How much of this was due to NORDO and how much was due to how he flew the pattern????

It looks like the pilots of the other aircraft in the pattern were never interviewed. I've never encountered a situation where I saw something bad developing and thought I should call it it out to the pilots concerned and I've never had another pilot call one out to me. What is everyone's thoughts on this? Have you ever encountered this? If we see something serious developing, should we push the button and get involved?

 

[Palmpilot]

I'd have to look, but I think I'd be hard pressed to find a field with an IAP that had minimums below 700' that didn't have class E to the surface. If it's class E to the surface and 700', no legal VFR traffic. SVFR required.

The minimums at my home airport are below 500 AGL, and the airspace below 700 AGL defaults to class G when the tower is closed.

https://skyvector.com/airport/PAO/Palo-Alto-Airport

 

[Palmpilot]

...I've never encountered a situation where I saw something bad developing and thought I should call it it out to the pilots concerned and I've never had another pilot call one out to me. What is everyone's thoughts on this? Have you ever encountered this? If we see something serious developing, should we push the button and get involved?

On a practice ILS to Livermore (LVK), another pilot once mentioned that he could hear my gear warning horn when I was transmitting. It wasn't an issue under the circumstances, but I appreciated the heads-up nevertheless.

 

[EdFred]

I'd have to look, but I think I'd be hard pressed to find a field with an IAP that had minimums below 700' that didn't have class E to the surface. If it's class E to the surface and 700', no legal VFR traffic. SVFR required.

Regardless, I've never had this happen either. VFR? Eyeballs, eyeballs, eyeballs, fly predictably, and watch for those that aren't.

--Tony

There are hundreds, maybe thousands of them. Many more G surface airports with IAPs than E surface airports in the US with IAPs. Especially with the VNAV GPS approaches.

 

[Stewartb]

So a pilot on an IFR flight into an uncontrolled airport breaks out at 700'. Who is responsible for aircraft separation in that area?

 

[Everskyward]

So a pilot on an IFR flight into an uncontrolled airport breaks out at 700'. Who is responsible for aircraft separation in that area?

The pilots. I can only recall one time that I heard a VFR airplane in the pattern when we were doing an approach to an airport with low ceilings and visibility. The other airplane was on the CTAF frequency and said he could see us. I found that to be a little implausible since we were still IMC, but maybe he saw our lights. This was in Alaska, with mountains all around, so the other pilot was presumably familiar with the area...

 

[MAKG1]

I'd have to look, but I think I'd be hard pressed to find a field with an IAP that had minimums below 700' that didn't have class E to the surface. If it's class E to the surface and 700', no legal VFR traffic. SVFR required.

Regardless, I've never had this happen either. VFR? Eyeballs, eyeballs, eyeballs, fly predictably, and watch for those that aren't.

--Tony

I can find several examples just within 50 miles, mostly but not completely related to part time towers.

KHAF (both LPVs), KSNS (ILS), KPAO (LNAV!), KLVK (ILS and LPV), KSCK (ILS and LPV), even KMRY (all -- and yes, a Class C can revert to Class G when the tower is closed). Having personally encountered a Pitts (with radio) flying VFR patterns at KHAF with a 1000 foot overcast, yes, it does happen.

 

[luvflyin]

So a pilot on an IFR flight into an uncontrolled airport breaks out at 700'. Who is responsible for aircraft separation in that area?

The pilots. It's see and avoid. That's the problem with approaches with lower minimums and no Surface Area.