Radio Communications for Direct Back to Class D Airport under Class B Airspace

ApocalypseZ

ApocalypseZ

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ApocalypseZ
Hi communities,

I recently got my PPL license and am planning to take my wife to overfly the Baltimore city at night.

My home airport is KMTN, which is a class D airport lying under KBWI class B airspace

My plan is to take off from KMTN and contact Potomac Approach(which is the APP Controller for BWI Class B airspace ) and get clearance to orbit the Baltimore city. What i am not clear is how should i let Potomac App know that i'm going back to KMTN and how should i transit to KMTN CT?

Usually i would initiate the call with KMTN CT while i am 10 miles out, but if i'm just over Baltimore city, there is no way that i could be 10 miles away from the KMTN airport.

Should i fly away until i have a 10 miles distance then let Potomac Approach know i'm going back to KMTN and then call KMTN CT?


Sorry for this rookie question

Thanks
 
Maybe its a special flight rules area...but why do you need to talk to Approach at all if you will be under the Bravo the entire time?

Now I don't recommend that but unless this is a special use airspace it is legal.

I would ask for a squawk from the class D during taxi for departure. The will hand you off to the approach after takeoff. Yiu can state your intentions and they might vector you and might even give you a Bravo clearance.
 
There's no guarantee controllers will clear you into the class bravo. I know they wont in SF
 
Sinistar said:
Maybe its a special flight rules area...but why do you need to talk to Approach at all if you will be under the Bravo the entire time?

Now I don't recommend that but unless this is a special use airspace it is legal.

I would ask for a squawk from the class D during taxi for departure. The will hand you off to the approach after takeoff. Yiu can state your intentions and they might vector you and might even give you a Bravo clearance.
Click to expand...

Yeah, their is DCSFRA over there, but as long as i don't across the Baltimore inner harbor i'm good.

The reason i need a bravo clearance is because of the bravo ceiling on inner habor is only 1500ft and i don't want to fly that low.

Thanks for the squawk suggestions. I think that make sense.
 
Captain Sweet T said:
There's no guarantee controllers will clear you into the class bravo. I know they wont in SF
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's true, i just want to give it a try and see if i can get the clearance and then overfly the Baltimore city.
 
Perhaps I'm missing something? When you are ready to head back, listen to the ATIS and tell Approach you are going back KMTN.

They might coordinate the approach into the airport and hand you off closer. They might terminate radar services and let you go right away. If you are uncomfortable with how close you are getting to the D, ask Approach if you need to switch.

Traffic coordination with towers they serve is a big part of TRACON's job. That's especially true for busy airspace. We need to rely on that as pilots in part because there are letters of agreement between ATC facilities. Unless we have coincidentally been exposed to one, we pilots don't know what they are. They are just practical divisions of responsibilities between facilities regardless of the technical airspace boundaries we see on a Sectional.
 
MTN is a nice D airport.

Many situations where a Class D is under Class B you can get Bravo clearance prior to taxi. Potomac doesn’t allow this so you will depart, remain clear Bravo, get Bravo clearance monitor ATIS before and ATC will direct you when to call MTN tower on your return.

“Potomac 123AB returning to MTN for landing with Charlie”. ATC will then advise you to contact Tower when they are ready to dump you off.
 
Yes, I think the misunderstanding here is that you absolutely need to be talking to MTN tower before crossing the magic class D dotted line. That's true in general, but if you're talking with Potomac Approach and they know where you're going (ie MTN), then you can wait for them to tell you to "contact tower." Approach will let Tower know you're coming, and you won't get in trouble for crossing the dotted line before Potomac hands you off, nor would you get in trouble for still being in the Bravo if they hand you off early, though that's not likely to happen. We're taught in private pilot land "you have to talk to these people before you cross this line," which is true when you're not talking to anyone yet. But when you're already talking to a controller, they'll hand you off to the next one appropriately almost all of the time, and they generally have agreements between themselves to make sure it happens efficiently for everyone involved.

As everyone above has said, what you have to do is:
1. Get your squawk code for flight following from MTN if you can (it's been a while since I've flown out of there, so forget if ground and/or clearance delivery will give you one VFR), and maybe hint to them that your intention is to circle downtown Baltimore.
2. Take off and get established with Potomac approach (and a squawk code if you haven't already) and make your request in plain English, something like:
"Potomac approach, N12345, request."
"<loud sigh> N12345, say request."
"N12345 request bravo clearance to circle downtown Baltimore (or Baltimore harbor), two thousand feet and below."​
3. Expect one of three replies:
"N12345 cleared into class bravo airspace VFR two thousand feet and below; report on station." - You're good to go; the last part means they don't know where exactly you want to circle, so they want you to tell them when you've made it to the circling part so they can stop wondering "where the hell is this guy going to fly next?"

"N12345 unable, remain clear of bravo." - You'll have to stay under 1,500' and outside of the inner Bravo ring, which is a bummer, but is not really an unreasonable VFR altitude around there. It does require a good bit of vigilance to make sure you don't break any rules, so maybe try with no passengers and not personally trying to sight-see first, to get used to that kind of airspace if you aren't already.

"N12345, cleared into class bravo airspace VFR two thousand feet and below, remain... [northeast of the Patapsco river, north of Sparrow's Point, east of the Stadiums, or something like that]" - You're good to go, but I hope you have a copy of the TAC and are somewhat familiar with the airspace. If you don't know what they're talking about, you can say "Unable, unfamiliar with Sparrow's Point," but expect them to deny the Bravo clearance in that case.​
4. When you're all done get the ATIS at MTN, say "Potomac approach, N12345 returning to Martin State with information Quebec."
5. They will either say "Proceed direct to Martin State" or give you an altitude and heading. When you get close, they'll give you a handoff to the tower frequency. Don't worry about exactly what lines you're crossing when; you won't get in trouble if you're talking to someone. (Obviously if you're starting to fly the pattern at Martin State and they haven't given you tower yet, you should speak up.)

Taking this flight at night, I think you're pretty likely to get the Bravo transition approved without much in the way of restrictions...

pc205859.jpg
 
Welcome to PoA, see you around the SFRA...
 
ApocalypseZ said:
Hi communities,

I recently got my PPL license and am planning to take my wife to overfly the Baltimore city at night.

My home airport is KMTN, which is a class D airport lying under KBWI class B airspace

My plan is to take off from KMTN and contact Potomac Approach(which is the APP Controller for BWI Class B airspace ) and get clearance to orbit the Baltimore city. What i am not clear is how should i let Potomac App know that i'm going back to KMTN and how should i transit to KMTN CT?

Usually i would initiate the call with KMTN CT while i am 10 miles out, but if i'm just over Baltimore city, there is no way that i could be 10 miles away from the KMTN airport.

Should i fly away until i have a 10 miles distance then let Potomac Approach know i'm going back to KMTN and then call KMTN CT?


Sorry for this rookie question

Thanks
Click to expand...

I am sure you know all this, but it looks like there is a restricted area right next to MTN, rapidly dropping class B shelf in the other direction, and the DC SFRA a bit further. Co-ordinating between the delta tower and bravo clearance as well as maneuvering low level with a passenger for the first time at night for a newly minted private pilot might be a bit ambitious. You may want to fly this thing solo before taking up a passenger. Alternatively, you can just stay below 1500 ft and remain on the delta tower frequency. Yes, flying that low is risky, but so is doing all that other stuff if you haven't done it before. It is a trade off. Being this close to DC, MTN probably has radar.
 
sarangan said:
I am sure you know all this, but it looks like there is a restricted area right next to MTN, rapidly dropping class B shelf in the other direction, and the DC SFRA a bit further. Co-ordinating between the delta tower and bravo clearance as well as maneuvering low level with a passenger for the first time at night for a newly minted private pilot might be a bit ambitious. You may want to fly this thing solo before taking up a passenger. Alternatively, you can just stay below 1500 ft and remain on the delta tower frequency. Yes, flying that low is risky, but so is doing all that other stuff if you haven't done it before. It is a trade off. Being this close to DC, MTN probably has radar.
Click to expand...

Also, even though you have your private pilot certificate now, nobody says you can't call up your flight instructor and ask to do this exact thing as an instructional flight before going with your wife.
 
mcmanigle said:
Also, even though you have your private pilot certificate now, nobody says you can't call up your flight instructor and ask to do this exact thing as an instructional flight before going with your wife.
Click to expand...

This is a really great idea. In fact, done right, your instructor can act like a typical passenger, which means you'll need to do a full passenger briefing (making sure you talk about sterile cockpit rules for critical parts of the aircraft operation), and the instructor can pepper you with questions while you are trying to keep out of trouble.

It would be a great experience for you, and make for a MUCH better experience for your wife on multiple fronts (she'll see you as the competent, confident pilot that we are sure you are, and you won't be snapping at her to hush while you are juggling the clearances).
 
Thanks everyone for replying! I scheduled a flight with my instructor tonight and just to rehearse what i will be doing with my wife.

Thanks for all the suggestions and i really appreciate all the inputs here!
 
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