Race to an EV truck - skin in the game edition

[FastEddieB]

Karen and I love our Honda Clarity PHEV. We’re virtually certain our next vehicle purchase will be a pure EV, and a pickup would be handiest as a daily driver.

When the Tesla CyberTruck rolled onto the stage at the unveiling, I thought it was a joke. But it was intriguing enough we put down a $100 refundable deposit. But right now, CyberTruck production is not set to even begin until late 2022, and we’re not very high on the list for deliveries.

Now the Rivian R1T has come onto our radar. The reviews are quite positive, and they’ve begun deliveries, albeit only to employees with very early positions. The compact size, similar to our Honda Ridgeline, appeals to us more than something like an F150 Lightning. Anyway, on Friday we spec’d out an R1T and went ahead and put $1,000 down*.

We’re aware that the deposits are refundable, but also imply no commitment from Tesla or Rivian concerning locking in today’s prices nor any commitment as to delivery date. And that we’re almost certainly two years or more away from delivery. Good news is that at our age, the years pass by really quickly - wasn’t it just Christmas?

Anyone else have skin in this game?

As an aside, with our Clarity 500 miles away in a body shop, and likely stuck there for months awaiting parts, it’s been a shock going from $18 of gas every couple of weeks to $50+ fill ups pretty regularly in our Ridgeline and Flex! Makes us a lot less likely to just “go for a drive”, which we did pretty often with COVID lockdowns.


*We simultaneously bought 10 shares of Rivian stock @ $116 as a flyer. With our Tesla stock, now even more skin in the game!

 

[eman1200]

I kinda like both the rivian and the 150 lightning, but not $70k+ like it.

 

[FastEddieB]

I kinda like both the rivian and the 150 lightning, but not $70k+ like it.

A lot of money, to be sure, but have you priced new pickups lately?

And there’s some hope for increased tax credits for EV’s coming down the pike, which will put these EV prices pretty close to their gas/diesel counterparts. We’ll see.

 

[wayne]

Too big for the tiny garage in our townhome. My convertible Mustang fits, but tighter than it should be.

I'm looking at the Kia Niro EV once I get tired of the Mustang. The convertible Mustang is terribly impractical. Lots of fun, but impractical.

 

[eman1200]

A lot of money, to be sure, but have you priced new pickups lately?...

no, but 70G's puts a massive dent into my TBM940 fund.

also, universal charging ports. I mean, c'mon, man!

 

[Oldmanb777]

Interesting for sure. The market and technology is (and will be ) rapidly changing for the next few years. I'm going to wait a while and see what comes to market in the next 5 yrs or so. Actually, I may never need to purchase a new vehicle in my life time. All my cars will easily out live me. I'm 67 But it's fun to see what's happening.

 

[Bill]

I kinda like both the rivian and the 150 lightning, but not $70k+ like it.

I've owned a few pickups in the past, but the extreme price runup compared to other vehicles makes then unattractive to me anymore. Is owning a truck nice? Yes! Is it $50-70k nice? Nope.

 

[FastEddieB]

I'm 67 But it's fun to see what's happening.

I’m 72, which is putting me pretty firmly in the “If not now, when?” mentality.

 

[simtech]

I recently purchased a new ram 2500. It was expensive and it sucks fuel, but the smiles per gallon is outstanding haha.. Plus the tax advatage of it being my company work truck.

EV vehicles are coming but my biggest gripe is, which I'm sure will get figured out, but charging time. Can you imagine a sunny summer day road tripping to the beach...you all now how packed a Bucc-ees can get...now imagine that many people having to wait 30 plus minutes to "fill up". No thanks! I wouldnt get into EV's until the mile range is in the thousands. But that's just me. I like burning gas! Haha

 

[SoonerAviator]

I generally need a truck to be "a truck". I tow with my trucks, and frequently haul things that require driving out to rural areas. The EVs (especially the Rivian) have taken big hits on their range when towing anything of significance. I'm not paying $70K+ for a truck that I can't use like a truck. I'll wait out the EV truck for a decade or two to see what they have come up with. My trucks and full-size SUV will remain ICE for now. I'm likely buying a used sports sedan in the next few months, and it may be the last ICE car I buy (that isn't a classic muscle car).

 

[Kenny Phillips]

I recently purchased a new ram 2500. It was expensive and it sucks fuel, but the smiles per gallon is outstanding haha.. Plus the tax advatage of it being my company work truck.

EV vehicles are coming but my biggest gripe is, which I'm sure will get figured out, but charging time. Can you imagine a sunny summer day road tripping to the beach...you all now how packed a Bucc-ees can get...now imagine that many people having to wait 30 plus minutes to "fill up". No thanks! I wouldnt get into EV's until the mile range is in the thousands. But that's just me. I like burning gas! Haha

Or ... get a charge before going to the beach? Same way I get a fill up on petrol before heading to an area with no fuel or costly fuel.

 

[kmacht]

I don’t get why you would want an electric truck yet. The premium you are going to pay for an all electric truck will never be recouped in gas savings compared to a F150 or Silverado. You are trading spending a few dollars more a week in gas for thousands of dollars towards the premium you pay for Ann electric truck right now. The mileage they claim on the electric trucks also goes down to almost unusable as soon as you start towing something. If you are really going to use the truck as a truck then buy one with an ICE. If you just need to occasionally pick up some plywood or bring some garbage to the dump then buy a hybrid SUV and a cheap trailer to tow behind it.

 

[eman1200]

Or ... get a charge before going to the beach? Same way I get a fill up on petrol before heading to an area with no fuel or costly fuel.

obviously you'd charge before going on a trip. it's what happens when you're ON that trip where the difference lies. either no charging stations or a lengthy 'sit there with your thumb up your butt for a couple of hours while your EV charges'. if you find a gas station, you're in and out in minutes. EV charging, not so much. I just punched in a trip to the beach.....I could easily do round trip on one tank of gas. I'd have to charge at least once with current EV mileage estimates, which is NOT an in and out process.

 

[wayne]

EV vehicles are coming but my biggest gripe is, which I'm sure will get figured out, but charging time. Can you imagine a sunny summer day road tripping to the beach...you all now how packed a Bucc-ees can get...now imagine that many people having to wait 30 plus minutes to "fill up". No thanks! I wouldnt get into EV's until the mile range is in the thousands. But that's just me. I like burning gas! Haha

It should be charging while you are having fun at the beach. That should be way more time than needed to recharge with a high powered charger.

Not an issue for me though. I fly to the beach. It's been a while since I drove to the beach.

When the kids were younger the youngest and I would go to St Simons Island for the day. We'd fly down, rent bicycles, bike around where we needed to go. She's 23 now, so we haven't done that in a while.

 

[chartbundle]

Your beaches have chargers?

There are places I can't get to in Oregon with an EV, truck or not. Well, ok, I could get there but without a guaranteed charger there's no way I could get back. And most of the places that people want to go in the west to get away from it all aren't going to have chargers. Sure you can tow your RV and then run the generator to recharge your car/truck I guess. Same idea with the F150 bed mounted range extender.

 

[FastEddieB]

As far as charging infrastructure, it is admittedly very poor across some pretty wide swaths of the US. This map is just Tesla Superchargers:

But that’s now, and as I said, just Superchargers. Bigger question is what the situation will be in two years or so. Ford, Rivian, VW, GM and Tesla all realize the need for more, and more compatible, charging stations. And the government wants to give big incentives to companies to expand their networks. This will, undoubtedly happen, the question is just how fast.

Potential owners have to ask themselves what percentage of their driving would be easily accommodated by a 300+ mile range and just charging at home. In our case I’d guess in excess of 95% of our driving. If we had a pure EV, we’d likely keep our Clarity for impromptu road trips where we don’t want to hassle with charging and would be happy just getting 42 mpg in hybrid mode.

 

[Rich Holt]

I don’t get why you would want an electric truck yet. The premium you are going to pay for an all electric truck will never be recouped in gas savings compared to a F150 or Silverado. You are trading spending a few dollars more a week in gas for thousands of dollars towards the premium you pay for Ann electric truck right now. The mileage they claim on the electric trucks also goes down to almost unusable as soon as you start towing something. If you are really going to use the truck as a truck then buy one with an ICE. If you just need to occasionally pick up some plywood or bring some garbage to the dump then buy a hybrid SUV and a cheap trailer to tow behind it.

2022 F150 Base $29,290 (tax credit $0) net $29,290
2022 F150 Lightning $39,974 (tax credit $7,500, possibly $11,500) net $32,474 (Your taxable income needs to be at least $46,000 to get the entire $7500)

"Premium" $3184 or about 6 months of gas

F150 ~ $.15 per mile for fuel ($3 a gallon)
Lightning ~ $.09 per mile ($.17 per kWh)

Looks like that premium will fade in less than a year of operating. Even sooner if you factor in things like oil changes.

As far as the range when towing going down, I'm not sure how you quantify "unusable." The range of the ICE also goes down significantly when towing, especially at max towing/payload. It's physics. I would not buy an electric truck to pull a camper cross country. I see the majority of half-ton trucks towing 1 person to and from whatever. I've owned 5 trucks and can count on one hand the number of times that I've towed something. YMMV

 

[Lachlan]

No electric vehicles for me (yet) but I noticed the OP really likes the phrase “skin in the game.” If only his skin was covered with photovoltaic cells…

 

[Rich Holt]

As far as charging infrastructure, it is admittedly very poor across some pretty wide swaths of the US.

I bet the cell phone coverage in those large swaths are equally terrible, and for the same reasons.

 

[Bob Noel]

I recently purchased a new ram 2500. It was expensive and it sucks fuel, but the smiles per gallon is outstanding haha.. Plus the tax advatage of it being my company work truck.

EV vehicles are coming but my biggest gripe is, which I'm sure will get figured out, but charging time. Can you imagine a sunny summer day road tripping to the beach...you all now how packed a Bucc-ees can get...now imagine that many people having to wait 30 plus minutes to "fill up". No thanks! I wouldnt get into EV's until the mile range is in the thousands. But that's just me. I like burning gas! Haha

bring a small generator and charge it from that.

<big grin>

 

[FastEddieB]

Here’s a stretched analogy…

I remember when CD’s first came out. Record stores had records and cassettes at the time. There brought in maybe a couple dozen CD’s on a single end cap. I recall Madonna and Dire Straights among our first CD purchases. Inexorably, the CD section expanded and expanded until taking over the majority of the store.

We will see this as chargers start to be installed at gas stations, subsidized or even mandated by the government. They will go from being a rarity to replacing gas pumps at a faster and faster rate, just as CD’s did. It’s inevitable - the only thing in question is how long it will take.

 

[eman1200]

2022 F150 Base $29,290 (tax credit $0) net $29,290
2022 F150 Lightning $39,974 (tax credit $7,500, possibly $11,500) net $32,474 (Your taxable income needs to be at least $46,000 to get the entire $7500)
...

the 39k is only for commercial customers:

"The entry model starts at $39,974 MSRP (commercial-oriented). More-equipped mid-series (XLT) starts at $52,974 MSRP,"

EDIT: you're also not including any other charges like mandatory destination BS and whatnot. and really, who gets the absolute base model of ANY vehicle? so unrealistic pricing you have here.

 

[Rich Holt]

the 39k is only for commercial customers:

"The entry model starts at $39,974 MSRP (commercial-oriented). More-equipped mid-series (XLT) starts at $52,974 MSRP,"

EDIT: you're also not including any other charges like mandatory destination BS and whatnot. and really, who gets the absolute base model of ANY vehicle? so unrealistic pricing you have here.

The mandatory destination BS and whatnot applies to both the F150 and the Lightning equally, and was left out of my reply for that reason. It's also the base model for both, so equally a waste of typing.

 

[ebetancourt]

Hummer!

 

[Mahneuvers]

..Your taxable income needs to be at least $46,000 to get the entire $7500...

Is there a phase out income level? After buying my 2007 Camry Hybrid, at tax time, I realized my income level disqualified me for the tax deduction. A good problem to have for sure but the experience made me cautious of vehicle tax incentives.

 

[steingar]

Had a truck. I was everyone's best pal too. Truck was no fun at all to drive, and actually made a fairly suckwad car. I was happy to see it go.

 

[Rich Holt]

Is there a phase out income level? After buying my 2007 Camry Hybrid, at tax time, I realized my income level disqualified me for the tax deduction. A good problem to have for sure but the experience made me cautious of vehicle tax incentives.

There is. I cannot remember what it is off-hand.

 

[schmookeeg]

Kinda surprised to see "pickup would be handiest as a daily driver" but you know your routines.

Harvesting EV credits is an amusing sport. Don't discount leases -- EVs generally depreciate faster than the money factor and residual drop, add in the incentives and you can get some real cheap vehicles AND protect yourself from EV obsolescence as they keep refining and improving them with time and experience.

I know common strategy is to buy a car and run it into the ground for 10-20 years, but this should be more considered "electronics" than "durable equipment" in my view. How many electronic gadgets do you still use that are > 10 years old?

$0.02

 

[Brad W]

.....
We will see this as chargers start to be installed at gas stations, subsidized or even mandated by the government. They will go from being a rarity to replacing gas pumps at a faster and faster rate, just as CD’s did. It’s inevitable - the only thing in question is how long it will take.

The thing is about this talking point about charger network... it's a different paradigm than a gas station. You need those in every neighborhood....but with plug in EV's the vast majority of charging happens at home at night...so the infrastructure issue...to use a term beat to death lately I think really is more about power plants and the grid, and also about getting chargers put in at apartment complexes....than it is about public chargers. The high speed chargers are most needed at rest areas, hotels, and restaurants for use on road trips.

I would probably be driving a Rivian or a Lightning if they were being shipped a year and a half ago. My Silverado was getting tired, and I ended up buying an E-Tron for a bout the same money that a gas F-150 was going to cost me. Bought it for the gadget novelty, not for any political or perceived "green" reasons. I've really enjoyed most aspects of driving it, have been on several road trips without issue.

 

[Brad W]

correction...just remembered one road trip issue. Was counting on charging using a family member's dryer outlet, but that fell through and there weren't any convenient high speed chargers nearby. I made it work but it was a bit of a hassle. I found a hole in the "infrastructure"

 

[N659HB]

No desire for a EV truck (yet) but I’m in the game with a new (to me) 2017 Chevy Volt. It has just enough battery range to accommodate my daily commuting and charges easily overnight. Having the ICE means I don’t have to spend a lot of time charging on trips. I could care less about the “green” factor. It’s a cool car. I considered a Ford Escape plug-in, but they are: a) all new; b) more than I want to spend; and c) rare as hen’s teeth. Owning the Luscombe has accustomed me to “limited range”.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I'm sure EV's will be the preferred mode of transportation at some point. I have no problem with that. But the battery problem still has not been solved. They are getting better, but we are not there quite yet.

 

[Oldmanb777]

I’m 72, which is putting me pretty firmly in the “If not now, when?” mentality.

I totally agree. That said, a 1963 Split Window would be a lot more appealing than a new Tesla, or Rivian!

 

[Everskyward]

Rivian. Watch Long Way Up on Apple TV+. They used Rivians as support vehicles. Pretty sure they were provided by Rivian for the publicity. Not sure it was entirely positive publicity...

But they made it from Ushuaia (Southern tip of Argentina) to Los Angeles.

 

[Ghery]

We just bought a Ford Escape Hybrid about a month ago. Great range, gassed up in Pullman and just filled the tank again a couple days ago. 450+ miles on that tank. 13+ gallons. That said, a pure EV would have made sense for a commute car back when I was working for a living. 19 miles each was to/from the office, 120 miles (or less) each way if I needed to go to Oregon and couldn't get a seat on the airplane. But today? No chance for an EV. They don't have the range that I would need. And if I were to get a new vehicle that could pull the boat (3000+ pounds) there's no way that a current EV could handle it. I'll need something like our current tow vehicle (a 2006 Jeep Commander) to have the margin needed. And EVs don't presently have the capacity.

 

[luvflyin]

I've owned a few pickups in the past, but the extreme price runup compared to other vehicles makes then unattractive to me anymore. Is owning a truck nice? Yes! Is it $50-70k nice? Nope.

It ain't about 'nice'

 

[Morgan3820]

Or ... get a charge before going to the beach? Same way I get a fill up on petrol before heading to an area with no fuel or costly fuel.

Or you bring a generator and charge the EV while you relax on the beach.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Kinda surprised to see "pickup would be handiest as a daily driver" but you know your routines.

Harvesting EV credits is an amusing sport. Don't discount leases -- EVs generally depreciate faster than the money factor and residual drop, add in the incentives and you can get some real cheap vehicles AND protect yourself from EV obsolescence as they keep refining and improving them with time and experience.

I know common strategy is to buy a car and run it into the ground for 10-20 years, but this should be more considered "electronics" than "durable equipment" in my view. How many electronic gadgets do you still use that are > 10 years old?

$0.02

All of my computers.
Average age of phones on my account is five years. Really irritating how often they need to be replaced.

 

[FastEddieB]

Is there a phase out income level?

Pretty sure the details of any future tax incentives are still up in the air as the Build Back Better plan is finalized. I think a vehicle price cap of $80,000 is being proposed. You can spec a Rivian below that - for now. No one knows the final as delivered prices two years from now. There may also be restrictions based on income, but again, nothing is written in stone.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I’m sure whatever it is will be a waste of my money. I don’t think you need any help buying the truck.