Quick advice

Skyrys62

Skyrys62

En-Route
PoA Supporter
Joined
Apr 5, 2017
Messages
3,939
Location
hopefully not at work
Display Name
Display name:
Meet the Fokkers
Got about 15 hrs in a 172.
As you may have seen in some of the other threads, they hit a deer last night in the 172 on touchdown. Cut the deer in half, made a mess of the prop, but everyone is ok.
The plane is going in for inspection, and they are going to go ahead and OH the engine while they have it out. So, they are projecting 6 to 8 weeks.

I haven't flown since I soloed which was about 3-4 weeks now. Add to that 6 or 8 and then on top, the student backlog would jam the schedule up even more. That's a long time.

To compensate, they are offering their 2 DA-40's for use at the same rate of the 172.
So I'll be doing my XC's and maybe finishing up in the Diamond.
I'm sort of glad as I was wanting to fly it anyway.

I know it's faster, has a CS prop, and has a stick instead of a yoke.
Any advice on switching to that from a 172? Good, bad, ugly?
 
Last edited:
Perhaps.... enjoy the opportunity to fly a really good airplane at an advantageous price?
 
Seriously, you will do fine. There will be two or three hours to learn the new systems, flight characteristics, sight picture, handling, and their castering nose wheel. But once you get all that figured out, the DA40 is a really sweet airplane.
 
One significant tip for the DA40.... get really good with proper airspeed on approach and landing. That slick fuselage and glider based wing will float you long time in ground effect if you're coming in too fast.

Cessnas and all their parasitic rivets created a more forgiving enevelope in this area... but 5knots or more too much and it will be awhile before wheels kiss the runway.
 
Forget the 6 week pie in the sky. It is going to take about 9 weeks for the 172 to be on line. 8 weeks for the engine OH, 1 week and one week for the install and the engine break in. Take the upgrade deal.
 
Yup. Just go fly the DA-40. No guarantees the Skyhawk EVER comes back. Insurance company might scrap heap it. Never know.
 
Just pay attention to you airspeed on approach. The DA-40 is a slick airplane, and it will be hard to land it well if you are going too fast. Really make sure you get it slowed down to your approach speed. Otherwise it is going to float a long way down the run way. I learned in a DA-20. The stick is no problem. I now fly a Cardinal with CS prop. Not too much to worry about there, either. You'll get it just fine.
 
I'm getting my PPL in a 182 and am now at around 8hrs. Learning the CS prop has been pretty easy. Its more about the order of things. When slowing down from cruise I leave the prop in and back off the throttle and still use manifold (eg. 23" -> 20") then later when slowed down the prop is pushed in and it is so smooth. Doing the opposite will result in a quick but obvious vibration / shudder and perhaps over speed the prop. Then as you slow down more you're now using the throttle to control RPM and not paying as much attention to the MP gauge. Everyone else who's flown a CS prop knows that. However the newbie thing I did wrong early on was to look at the wrong gauge! They are next to each other and so often you here 20 or 23 or 23 squared then when he told me 1500 on final I was actually looking at the MP gauge and processing 1500 as 15".

Maybe spend 30 minutes in the new plane and just chair fly the transition into cruise, transition out of cruise, final with hand on throttle and only looking at RPM, and using the prop vernier first by sound and then a quick look to final adjust for RPM at cruise. The Vernier on the prop is very nice to have.

The run-up changes ever so slightly with a few cycles of the prop. I was babying it and pulling it just enough to see a RPM drop but not enough to get the oil cycling through. I think in winter it should even be cycled more.

Oh yeah, although I learned this before I started it was very enlightening to know just how it works. I had thought that the blades were pitched the heaviest for takeoff and the least for cruise...wrong. And our mechanic explained in better detail than I could ever explain here how the governor works and how the engine oil plays a role (at least in our setup).

Its "almost" second nature now. Cowl flaps, that's another story :)
 
I have no time in the Diamond but if the club here had one I'd be flying that instead of the 172. From pilots I know who've flown it they've said it feels tighter thanks to the push pull rods. Frankly even an Archers feels tighter than a 172.. something about that planes just makes it seem very "loose" - and I've flown many of them

Will be curious to hear what you think of it, being knew to the plane and relatively knew to flying, keep us in the loop!
 
Sinistar said:
Doing the opposite will result in a quick but obvious vibration / shudder and perhaps over speed the prop.

...

The run-up changes ever so slightly with a few cycles of the prop. I was babying it and pulling it just enough to see a RPM drop but not enough to get the oil cycling through. I think in winter it should even be cycled more.
Click to expand...

The vibration thing is a bit odd. I've got a lot of time in my 182 and have flown five different airframes and have never experienced any shudder or vibration from putting the prop back to high RPM. Vibration or shuddering upon RPM increase would indicate something quite out of balance in the rotating masses of the prop or internal weirdness. Not sure I like the sounds of that.

As far as overspeed, it won't/shouldn't do that either unless you're just absolutely jamming the prop lever forward all at once. A smooth medium speed slide of that handle should take care of that. Take care of your prop and it'll take care of you. Kinda like not slamming gears in a manual transmission but not really the same. No rush though. Give everything a little time to come back to equilibrium as you go along. Smoooooth...

If it's a 1980 or older pre-restart and has the original prop on it, there's a service bulletin for props that start leaking a little oil because they haven't been "deep cycled" enough. Apparently the seals don't get "wiped" well enough and leak a little at their end of travel points if someone always gingerly cycles them only a couple hundred RPM. They don't need to be deep cycled EVERY time but perhaps every five to ten flights maybe. And by deep I mean maybe 600-700 RPM or so. You know it when you hear it.

Our minor leak started in very cold winter conditions. It took about three flights with deep cycles during run-up to stop it. Was a number of years ago now, and we've never seen it since then after adopting an "every so often" deep cycle during run-up.

You're right about moving some oil around a bit in really cold weather. You'll see it, but the first cycle of the prop will take a second or two longer than the next after some warm oil has been moved into the hub. Second cycle will be normal speed. Third will also.

I do three in the winter for that reason, I want to see two at normal speed response, but many folks forego three and do two just to get on with it, in the summer. Even one is plenty after a lunch stop for a $100 burger somewhere, while it's still hot. Any more isn't really necessary once you know it's working.
 
Sinistar said:
I'm getting my PPL in a 182 and am now at around 8hrs. Learning the CS prop has been pretty easy. Its more about the order of things. When slowing down from cruise I leave the prop in and back off the throttle and still use manifold (eg. 23" -> 20") then later when slowed down the prop is pushed in and it is so smooth. Doing the opposite will result in a quick but obvious vibration / shudder and perhaps over speed the prop. Then as you slow down more you're now using the throttle to control RPM and not paying as much attention to the MP gauge. Everyone else who's flown a CS prop knows that. However the newbie thing I did wrong early on was to look at the wrong gauge! They are next to each other and so often you here 20 or 23 or 23 squared then when he told me 1500 on final I was actually looking at the MP gauge and processing 1500 as 15".

Maybe spend 30 minutes in the new plane and just chair fly the transition into cruise, transition out of cruise, final with hand on throttle and only looking at RPM, and using the prop vernier first by sound and then a quick look to final adjust for RPM at cruise. The Vernier on the prop is very nice to have.

The run-up changes ever so slightly with a few cycles of the prop. I was babying it and pulling it just enough to see a RPM drop but not enough to get the oil cycling through. I think in winter it should even be cycled more.

Oh yeah, although I learned this before I started it was very enlightening to know just how it works. I had thought that the blades were pitched the heaviest for takeoff and the least for cruise...wrong. And our mechanic explained in better detail than I could ever explain here how the governor works and how the engine oil plays a role (at least in our setup).

Its "almost" second nature now. Cowl flaps, that's another story :)
Click to expand...
If you're overspeeding the prop on a 182, you're cramming the blue knob in much too fast. Take it easy.

If you're cruising at less than 2400 RPM, you can wait for low throttle as a matter of technique, but it isn't truly necessary. Some airframes (e.g. 206) have a time limited red line, so it's more important to wait for low throttle there.
 
As always, thanks for the info DenverPilot! I should clarify the effect I describe is indeed from pushing in the prop to briskly at higher MP settings (doing so at lower MP settings is irrelevant). And I probably over exaggerated the descrption. When the prop is pushed in (too) quickly at high MP you can just hear and feel it. However the entire plane does not shake or vibrate. You can just hear & feel that fast spinny thing up front changing.

Every time I pre-flight I look and swipe my pinky finger around the area where blade meets the hub to check for oil. Here is a good argument for a small flash light even during daylight. Sitting in the hanger or out in strong direct lighting it can be hard to see this area good enough down low where it is shaded by the blade. During preflight along with visual inspection and checking for nicks/scratches/cracks I also check each blade to see if there is any wobble and if it can twist at all.

Our prop is old. Our A&P said it is still looking good. Given its age we have already planned for it being overhauled.

Yes,this is a 1972 182P model. And I never knew cycling it could actually seal it up again if it did start leaking. Thanks for the info!

When we do the run up I cycle it twice. And yes, the RPM drop is quite significant. You definitely are not at 1700rpm any more - seems like it drops down around 1000RPM, maybe even more depending on how long it is pulled out.

There is another thread about what people didn't learn during the PPL. Its so funny even not having my PPL yet, using our own aircraft I was already an expert and fueling at all kinds of small town self serves (always hoping there will be a nice ladder). The CS prop and cowl flaps are another sorta unique newbie experience.
 
Fly the heck out of that DA40. I love flying Diamonds, you feel so connected to that airplane compared to a 172. It will lift off the runway and just climb when at Vr (I think it's 57 KIAS) which always feels a little slow and will often chirp the stall warning but she wants to fly.

She also sits quite a bit lower than a Cessna so you have a tendency to flare a little too high. Coupled with the high aspect ratio wing she will float and then drop if you flare too high. The good thing is, the landing gear is much more forgiving. You have to be pretty hamfisted to bounce a DA40. Visibility is amazing as well, you sit slightly ahead of the wing so even seeing down you have a clear view.

CS prop is no issue after a few lessons. Free-castoring nosewheel is also not an issue. You'll find at taxi speeds that huge rudder will have authority and you can steer with the rudder, you should only need brakes if you are stopping or attempting a low-speed turn. (Speaking of which, make sure you are slow when turning. I got a little aggressive one time as a student and nearly had one of the mains lift off in a turn, lesson learned...)

If you're a larger person, the throttle quadrant can be a little tight to get at but other than that I have very few squawks about that plane love love love it. Kneeboards will also get in the way so if you use one, find a small one.
 
got about an hour in today... a little bumpy and gusty winds, but not ridiculous by any stretch. Landings were so-so. Coming in at 75-80 feels fast compared to the 172.
Actually liked the joy stick better than the yoke me thinks. But it could just be the plane handling in general. The throttle quadrant was perfectly placed for me. Very comfortable, but prop knob has a catch and I have to jerk it back then micro-manage the next 1/4 inch to get 2400, but it got to be routine after just 3 patterns.
Did power off stall...damn that thing wants to mush.
Steep turn was a breeze, even in the gusts.
And yes... you were all correct. The airspeeds were different, but manageable. Sooooooo much easier to get in the yellow arc if you aren't careful.
Ran through the 530, 430, KAP140, and all the other bells and whistles that the 172 doesn't have. All that was a brain overload in conjunction with the new speeds and CS prop. But overall a good day.
Cross countries starting tomorrow. Wind looking a tad calmer for tomorrow, then back to the gusties. I hope the wind gives up a little before long. It's seems endless.
 
Well, the good thing is the 430 and 530 interfaces are identical except for screen size. To some extent, all Garmins are the same.

But I'm not sure it's a good idea to shove that at a student, especially with an autopilot. You'll be expected to be proficient for your checkride, and even aside from that, non proficiency is a distraction. To the uninitiated, altitude capturing modes for the KAP140 are confusing as hell.
 
MAKG1 said:
To the uninitiated, altitude capturing modes for the KAP140 are confusing as hell.
Click to expand...

Right. We messed with it on the return flight from maneuvers. The CFI fumbled with it and had to do it a couple times to capture our altitude. This was the distraction that got us well into the yellow arc amidst some bumpy air. I caught onto our speed when my tits started jiggling about.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top