questions to ask when joining a flying club.

magicj

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Dave
In digging around I see there is a fair amount of info from AOPA etc about buying an aircraft and starting a flying club/partnership. But what about joining an existing club or partnership. I'm assuming a substantial 'buy in' that represents the equity in the aircraft. <at risk $>

I'm thinking besides wanting to know TSMO and TT, should one ask if a title search was performed when the aircraft was purchased. Should one ask to see the log books? What to look for in the log books?

What else should be ask? :confused:

Thanks
 
Check the number of hours each plane gets flown in a month - helps determine a/c availability. Check the 'holiday' policy - is there a high demand for a/c on holidays or other times when you might want to go on a trip. Check training requirements to get 'checked out' in the planes and availability of CFI's to perform the checkouts. Ask about any accidents/incidents within the past year or two - helps determine whether the club members are people you want to 'share' the plane with. Ask how 'major' maintenance and upgrade issues are handled.

Just thinking of some things that came up in the last flying club I was in...
 
Lots of questions about finances, structure, stability of the club, membership turnover, decision-making, democratic rights, how in's and out's are handled, etc.

In digging around I see there is a fair amount of info from AOPA etc about buying an aircraft and starting a flying club/partnership. But what about joining an existing club or partnership. I'm assuming a substantial 'buy in' that represents the equity in the aircraft. <at risk $>

I'm thinking besides wanting to know TSMO and TT, should one ask if a title search was performed when the aircraft was purchased. Should one ask to see the log books? What to look for in the log books?

What else should be ask? :confused:

Thanks
 
The term "flying club" is not well defined. Referring to an equity club where the members have a substantial investment and maintenance obligations I would treat it as a partnership. If you're paying dues and renting an airplane and those are your only obligations I would treat it more like an FBO.

For the non-equity type clubs, I would look at:

  • How well are the planes maintained? Logbooks and squawk sheets are good sources. A good preflight of a plane or two and a talk with maintenance people should give you a good idea of their attitude towards maintenance.
  • Availability of planes, look at the schedules for the last few months. Ask about holidays and weekends. Then there are how long can you take a plane and what are the minimum flight times.
For a partnership or equity club, besides the above:

  • Is there any debt, who owes it (are you personally responsible)? Remember if there is a note with multiple people and everybody else takes off with the plane you will be responsible for the full amount.
  • How do you get out of the deal when you want to move or buy your own plane? A partnership is as much fun to dissolve as a marriage, check your pre-nup.
  • What about upgrades? Can they make you pay for the $10,000 STC'ed electric toothbrush you really don't want? Can you make them pay for the $15,000 WAAS GPS that you really want? How do they feel about upgrades are they on the same wavelength?
Joe
 
In addition to engine times, a significant variable in terms of valuation of an equity share is reserves.

Sure, the plane might have a run out engine, but if they have a $25,000 reserve to overhaul it, that might just be a wash.
 
Not only that, but check to find out if it's a real "club" or merely part of the name of the organization. In Colorado there is a "Club" that is really a commercial operation. Altho when you pay your monthly "dues" you're considered a "member", in reality, you're really paying a monthly fee to a for-profit company.
 
Important consideration: Are members "additional insureds" on the club's insurance? Very important, because if you are so-named, then in the event of a covered loss, the insurance carrier will not come back after you to recoup what it paid out, and you'll be liable only for the deductible.

Hence, you'll not need to buy renters' insurance.
 
Wow. Reading this makes me glad I'm in the club I'm in! Well-equipped planes, GREAT availability (which leads to me flying more, and further - Trips from Madison to the East, West, and Gulf coasts), no squabbles, buy-in is generally $500-$1,000 but equity value of the shares in a liquidation situation would be around $4,000 right now, members are named insured on the club's policy and do not need to carry their own insurance, based at a great airport with great controllers... And yes, we do have some shares available right now. http://www.capcityflyers.org/

I'm actually in two clubs, the other is non-equity but is dirt cheap and has their own airport. (It's also a ways away from me now. :()


Now, as to what you need to know:

First, what type of club is it? "Clubs" run the gamut from a two-person, one-plane partnership (not what I'd call a "club" but some would) to massive groups like the Aspen Flying Club and the West Valley Flying Club which have dozens of airplanes and hundreds, probably in the thousands, of members. Some FBO's run a "club" which is not really a club but is a way for them to get you to pay them every month even when you don't fly, in exchange for somewhat lower hourly rates.

Most commonly, a club will be either several people with a single airplane, or a few dozen people and a handful of airplanes. Some clubs are equity clubs, where you own part of the club and its fleet, while some clubs are non-equity clubs where you don't. So, find out what the structure is, how you get into the club, and just as importantly what your options are for getting out of the club.

Second - Fleet size. How many airplanes and how many members? With only one airplane, even 8 members can bee too many to have good availability, even if some of them don't fly much. With more airplanes, you can handle more members per airplane. In a 30-member, 3-airplane club for the last 6 years, I have had *one* instance where I have wanted to fly and couldn't, and only 3-4 times where I didn't get the specific airplane I wanted and had to fly a different one. In a ~200-member, 8-airplane club for one year, I have gotten the plane I wanted every single time but that's partially because I got checked out in their complex and tailwheel airplanes and never bothered with the 152's, 172, etc.

Third - Condition of fleet. Is the paint bad enough to cause corrosion worries? Is the interior bad enough to rip your clothing? Do the airplanes leave puddles behind or run poorly? Who is in charge of maintenance, and what is the policy on fixing squawks? How do you squawk something? If you're satisfied that they keep the airplanes maintained properly, how are they equipped? Do they keep their GPS databases up to date? Are there plans in place (financial and otherwise) to upgrade the planes and overhaul the engines?

Fourth - Rules. How do you schedule a plane, and what are the scheduling rules? Are there restrictions on flying to unpaved and/or private fields? Any other restrictions on flying? Daily minimums? Initial checkout requirements? Currency requirements? Must you use a club CFI, or can you use your own CFI? Get a copy of the club bylaws and operating procedures and read them carefully.

Fifth - Costs. Initial membership cost (and do you or can you get this back when you leave the club)? Monthly dues? Hourly rates, and how often do they change? Do they bill by Hobbs or Tach time? Do you have to pay in advance, at the completion of a flight, or the end of the month? Any discounts available for pre-paying?

Sixth - What If's. Are YOU covered as named insured on the club's policy, or do you need to carry your own non-owned aircraft policy? What happens if there's an incident? What happens if you have a maintenance issue away from the home drome? What if you have to divert for weather and can't have the plane back on time?

Hope this helps. Flying clubs are the cheapest way to fly, as long as you do fly, and can provide a lot of the benefits of ownership without a lot of the uncertainty and risk. I have become a MUCH better pilot because I've been in the club(s) and have better access to nicer planes, and lower costs. So, I fly a lot, and I go places. If you can find a good club, I can't recommend it strongly enough!
 
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Some more thoughts:

-Is there a cadre of founding members who simply want to milk the newer or low-time members in order to keep the nicest plane flying (and will they consistently hog the jewel of the fleet, leaving you virtually unable to even get checked out in it)?

-Does the club welcome interested parties to sit in on their meetings ( a great way to get a real feel for the club)?
 
All of the above are good thoughts. One of the most important things is to ask is if the engine reserve fully funded? In other words if the engine is a 2000 TBO engine and it has 1000 hours on it and the cost of a O/H is 25K is there $12,500 in the bank for a O/H? Also ask when the last special assessment was? You don't want to join a club and then a month later find out they want to paint the plane or install a new GPS and now you get hit with a big assessment. The other thing to look at is the monthly fee you have to pay even if you don't fly. All in all clubs are a great tool to have access to nice planes at a cost much cheaper than buying your own.

Good Luck Mike
 
Thanks to everyone who responded, Many great comments. I'm not a complete novice, I'm a member of two very different flying clubs. Unfortunately one of them will probably be disbanded tomorrow. :cryin:

A couple of things I have learned (from being members of these and other clubs) :

Having 'many' non-flying members is not necessarily a good thing. While it keeps your share of the fixed costs low and the plane is often available for you. When 'something happens' it can quickly spell the death of the club. Or at least many unhappy members.

Record keeping, test their records, (especially if you a buying a equity position of the club) As you are going though the log books, pick a maintenance/inspection item out from a year or so ago and ask to see the receipt.

Make sure there is a Indemnification clause in the by-laws. Once your are in the club you may find yourself on the board or an officer or what ever. Make sure the club will stand behind your actions. (Ok I'm sure I'll take some heat over this one.) :wink2:

Again thanks for all the advice. I'm off to find a new club, or maybe start one myself:fcross:
 
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