PaulMillner
Line Up and Wait
The wife is insisting on a 4 seater, high wing airplane for me to purchase. I ain't rich, so an older 172 type trike will have to be the one. I recently looked at 177s, and we both fell in love with the look, and the price. However, who's ever HEARD of a 177? I know there are about 1.234 million 172 and 182s out there, and that is the most popular 4-seat Cessna. But is the 177 just as good as the 172? Is there any inherent "stay FAR away from that one, boy" issues I should look for?
[Hi Riff, I'm one of the principals in Cardinal Flyers, the type club for Cardinals pilots and owners. Cessna has built about 50.000 172's; Cessna built between 4118 and 4295 Cardinals of all descriptions (177, 177A, 177B, and 177RG). But... the oldest Cardinal was built in 1967; the oldest 172 ~1955, so attrition may have impacted the fleets slightly differently. The Cardinal is well known to those who love them, whether owners or those hoping to be owners.]
Where else can I ask this, among Cessna owners (though, I would think they would be bias?) I saw one Cessna 177 website, but were asking to pay, just to get any information about the plane. EEP! No thanks.
[Well, no, not accurate... at www.cardinalflyers.com there is quite a bit of shopping data on the different years and models, as well as prepurchase info, outside the paywall. But, of course, if $34 to get ALL the info is too much, well... you may not be ready for aircraft ownership.
Paul]
It would be really tough for me to buy one with a dual magneto, especially if a long-term owner that ends up overhauling or replacing the engine at some point.
[I guess I don't understand the sentiment about overhaul. If it concerns you, at overhaul you can convert to two separate mags. Certainly, there are legitimate concerns about the dual (two-in-one-housing) magneto, but diligent maintenance works, as supported by the NTSB record... take care of them, and they'll keep working. But now there's an option to add electronic ignition for one set of plugs, and leave the dual mag for the other, increasing isolation between the redundant ignition sources.]
The 1968 with regular pistons (150 horse engine) can run on regular 87 octane ethanol-free mogas.
[And the 177A and 177B *engines* are approved for unleaded premium; no one has bothered getting the airframe STC yet, though.]
The initial 1968 model accounted for over 35% of all Cardinals built.
[Well, 28%, but close enough. Paul]
If door stewards in the Cardinals were made by the same guy at factory as the ones in our 182...well they're pretty fragile.
[Door Steward is the brand name of an aftermarket door closer made in Oregon; they're STC'd for the Cardinal and other aircraft. I haven't heard of one failing yet. Paul]
Some AD work regarding the elevator was required?
[There's no elevator, the Cardinals have stabilators. There's a service bulletin that suggests inspecting the brackets for cracks, but this is thought to be from poor fabrication practice, in other words not an ongoing "I don't have cracks now, but maybe they'll develop?!" concern.]
The RG is a nice option if you want extra speed but make sure you get a later year model because the earlier years are known for gear trouble. Most of the trouble comes from the electric motors.
[Hmmm. I doesn't matter what year Cardinal RG, there's only one electric motor, and it runs the hydraulic pump that powers the gear up and down. That motor has not been a particular source of concern.]
In the later hydraulic gear, if the electric pump fails, you can easily (no exaggeration here) pump down the gear with the emergency gear extension handle between the seats.
[All Cardinal RGs are the same in that respect; if there's a hydraulic pump problem, you hand-pump the gear down. However, we recommend that folks install a gear-pump-running light in ready view of the pilot. If the system develops a leak, and the pump starts running to keep up, you could pump most of the fluid overboard. The hand pump can still be used to lower the gear, but it's a lot easier to do if you catch it early before the fluid is lost.]
But economy is where the 177 shines. Pull her back in cruise and see 7-8 gph. But of course you won't make the book TAS numbers. For that, you need to bump the rpm to 2,500, IIRC. Which drinks more gas but you'll see the promised 145KTAS.
[There's also the aftermarket turbo Cardinal, which maintains sea level power to 20,000' allowing 170 knot cruise on 10 GPH.]
If you buy and RG and the wear / age parts on the hydraulic gear system haven't been replaced in the last X years per the manufacturer's recommendation, seriously consider having a good Cardinal mechanic replace them. I know, I know, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but it's a lot cheaper to have good seals and valves than a repair AFTER that stuff fails and you lose hydraulic pressure and can't pump it down, either.
[The good news is that four hoses and a handful of o-rings every five to ten years is pretty inexpensive preventative maintenance.]
Best place to educate yourself on this type is http://www.cardinalflyers.com/home/_home.php
[Concur! Paul]
The doors are huge, makes it easy to enter and exit, but the big doors are also prone to getting blown beyond their hinge limit, and ripping out their door post.
[Never heard of a ripped door post. What can happen is that either fuselage or door skins get wrinkled, and the door hinges can be broken. All fixable, but best to avoid in the first place. If you don't have the Door Steward closers to protect the doors, take care to park into the wind.]
The center wing carry thru is a huge aluminum casting, and is prone to inter-granular corrosion.
[No, it is not. This has happened to a few airplanes in 50 years, we can count them on the fingers of one hand. Of course, it's good to always do a thorough prepurchase inspection, but a 0.001 incident rate is not "prone" by any rational measure.
The RG [is] a real money maker with the proximity switches Cessna used.
[These switches can be renewed for less than $10 in parts, and there's three of them. They're not really a problem if you have a trained mechanic, but if you're worried, replace them every five years when you replace the gear hoses.
Few components in common with other legacy Cessnas.
[As far as the normal wear and tear items, they're pretty much common with all Cessnas, or even all light piston twins. There's no Achilles heal of parts availability. Cessna continues to support the fleet, and the Cardinal community has been successful at identifying workarounds and alternative supply for things that Cessna wants too much money for.]
You have to push the plane by yourself, no struts, no place to help
[The assist handles in the tail became an option in the 1970 mode year; they can be retrofitted from salvage, or via an STC owned by BAS (the seat belt folks) that uses all new parts.]
If you want a 4 seat Cessna that will do everything better than a 177 find a 175 that has been converted a 180 horse Lycoming 0360. at half the cost.
[I like the Skylark. But the Cardinal has more room, better visibility, sexier looks, and cruises faster. What else is contained in "everything"?]
I can’t imagine recommending anyone fly this model airframe with the 150 or 180 HP versions.
[The 180 HP Cardinal actually gets off the ground a bit faster than the 200 HP; I flew my 180 HP Cardinal for 15 years; it met the mission fabulously. No, it's not a fill the seats and fill the tanks airplane, but airplanes that are lack flexibility!]
Heavy on maintenance with the RG systems.
[Folks say that; I've only had my RG 21 years now... maybe the heavy maintenance is yet to come? The key, as with many aircraft, is to have someone who understands the systems. We've done a pretty good job of identifying those folks.]
I almost bought a 177 until I found out the windows don't open!
[You've been misinformed... they open just fine, as forward pointing vents, and there are aftermarket mods to allow you to hang most of your body out the window if you need to.]
Lack of the wing strut means you need a ladder to check the fuel. Can be problematic at some cross-country airports, but not insurmountable.
[There's a nifty little step stool that folds up to not take any space... and if you're over 6' you may not even need that.]
[Hi Riff, I'm one of the principals in Cardinal Flyers, the type club for Cardinals pilots and owners. Cessna has built about 50.000 172's; Cessna built between 4118 and 4295 Cardinals of all descriptions (177, 177A, 177B, and 177RG). But... the oldest Cardinal was built in 1967; the oldest 172 ~1955, so attrition may have impacted the fleets slightly differently. The Cardinal is well known to those who love them, whether owners or those hoping to be owners.]
Where else can I ask this, among Cessna owners (though, I would think they would be bias?) I saw one Cessna 177 website, but were asking to pay, just to get any information about the plane. EEP! No thanks.
[Well, no, not accurate... at www.cardinalflyers.com there is quite a bit of shopping data on the different years and models, as well as prepurchase info, outside the paywall. But, of course, if $34 to get ALL the info is too much, well... you may not be ready for aircraft ownership.
Paul]It would be really tough for me to buy one with a dual magneto, especially if a long-term owner that ends up overhauling or replacing the engine at some point.
[I guess I don't understand the sentiment about overhaul. If it concerns you, at overhaul you can convert to two separate mags. Certainly, there are legitimate concerns about the dual (two-in-one-housing) magneto, but diligent maintenance works, as supported by the NTSB record... take care of them, and they'll keep working. But now there's an option to add electronic ignition for one set of plugs, and leave the dual mag for the other, increasing isolation between the redundant ignition sources.]
The 1968 with regular pistons (150 horse engine) can run on regular 87 octane ethanol-free mogas.
[And the 177A and 177B *engines* are approved for unleaded premium; no one has bothered getting the airframe STC yet, though.]
The initial 1968 model accounted for over 35% of all Cardinals built.
[Well, 28%, but close enough. Paul]
If door stewards in the Cardinals were made by the same guy at factory as the ones in our 182...well they're pretty fragile.
[Door Steward is the brand name of an aftermarket door closer made in Oregon; they're STC'd for the Cardinal and other aircraft. I haven't heard of one failing yet. Paul]
Some AD work regarding the elevator was required?
[There's no elevator, the Cardinals have stabilators. There's a service bulletin that suggests inspecting the brackets for cracks, but this is thought to be from poor fabrication practice, in other words not an ongoing "I don't have cracks now, but maybe they'll develop?!" concern.]
The RG is a nice option if you want extra speed but make sure you get a later year model because the earlier years are known for gear trouble. Most of the trouble comes from the electric motors.
[Hmmm. I doesn't matter what year Cardinal RG, there's only one electric motor, and it runs the hydraulic pump that powers the gear up and down. That motor has not been a particular source of concern.]
In the later hydraulic gear, if the electric pump fails, you can easily (no exaggeration here) pump down the gear with the emergency gear extension handle between the seats.
[All Cardinal RGs are the same in that respect; if there's a hydraulic pump problem, you hand-pump the gear down. However, we recommend that folks install a gear-pump-running light in ready view of the pilot. If the system develops a leak, and the pump starts running to keep up, you could pump most of the fluid overboard. The hand pump can still be used to lower the gear, but it's a lot easier to do if you catch it early before the fluid is lost.]
But economy is where the 177 shines. Pull her back in cruise and see 7-8 gph. But of course you won't make the book TAS numbers. For that, you need to bump the rpm to 2,500, IIRC. Which drinks more gas but you'll see the promised 145KTAS.
[There's also the aftermarket turbo Cardinal, which maintains sea level power to 20,000' allowing 170 knot cruise on 10 GPH.]
If you buy and RG and the wear / age parts on the hydraulic gear system haven't been replaced in the last X years per the manufacturer's recommendation, seriously consider having a good Cardinal mechanic replace them. I know, I know, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but it's a lot cheaper to have good seals and valves than a repair AFTER that stuff fails and you lose hydraulic pressure and can't pump it down, either.
[The good news is that four hoses and a handful of o-rings every five to ten years is pretty inexpensive preventative maintenance.]
Best place to educate yourself on this type is http://www.cardinalflyers.com/home/_home.php
[Concur!
Paul]The doors are huge, makes it easy to enter and exit, but the big doors are also prone to getting blown beyond their hinge limit, and ripping out their door post.
[Never heard of a ripped door post. What can happen is that either fuselage or door skins get wrinkled, and the door hinges can be broken. All fixable, but best to avoid in the first place. If you don't have the Door Steward closers to protect the doors, take care to park into the wind.]
The center wing carry thru is a huge aluminum casting, and is prone to inter-granular corrosion.
[No, it is not. This has happened to a few airplanes in 50 years, we can count them on the fingers of one hand. Of course, it's good to always do a thorough prepurchase inspection, but a 0.001 incident rate is not "prone" by any rational measure.
The RG [is] a real money maker with the proximity switches Cessna used.
[These switches can be renewed for less than $10 in parts, and there's three of them. They're not really a problem if you have a trained mechanic, but if you're worried, replace them every five years when you replace the gear hoses.
Few components in common with other legacy Cessnas.
[As far as the normal wear and tear items, they're pretty much common with all Cessnas, or even all light piston twins. There's no Achilles heal of parts availability. Cessna continues to support the fleet, and the Cardinal community has been successful at identifying workarounds and alternative supply for things that Cessna wants too much money for.]
You have to push the plane by yourself, no struts, no place to help
[The assist handles in the tail became an option in the 1970 mode year; they can be retrofitted from salvage, or via an STC owned by BAS (the seat belt folks) that uses all new parts.]
If you want a 4 seat Cessna that will do everything better than a 177 find a 175 that has been converted a 180 horse Lycoming 0360. at half the cost.
[I like the Skylark. But the Cardinal has more room, better visibility, sexier looks, and cruises faster. What else is contained in "everything"?]
I can’t imagine recommending anyone fly this model airframe with the 150 or 180 HP versions.
[The 180 HP Cardinal actually gets off the ground a bit faster than the 200 HP; I flew my 180 HP Cardinal for 15 years; it met the mission fabulously. No, it's not a fill the seats and fill the tanks airplane, but airplanes that are lack flexibility!]
Heavy on maintenance with the RG systems.
[Folks say that; I've only had my RG 21 years now... maybe the heavy maintenance is yet to come? The key, as with many aircraft, is to have someone who understands the systems. We've done a pretty good job of identifying those folks.]
I almost bought a 177 until I found out the windows don't open!
[You've been misinformed... they open just fine, as forward pointing vents, and there are aftermarket mods to allow you to hang most of your body out the window if you need to.]
Lack of the wing strut means you need a ladder to check the fuel. Can be problematic at some cross-country airports, but not insurmountable.
[There's a nifty little step stool that folds up to not take any space... and if you're over 6' you may not even need that.]
