Question for controllers

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I am reminded of an episode of the "A Team" where the bad guys took over an airplane on the ground and they were threatening to kill hostages if they didn't get permission to take off from the tower.
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Reminds me of an airfield ops meeting they had (that I wasn't invited to) in which they came up with the bright idea and all engine runs and tows had to be cleared with the tower in order to "prevent hijacking." First of all, its rare that someone is going to steal a military aircraft and second, there is nothing the tower can do about it other than call someone and say "hey, there's someone taxiing around and not talking to us."
 
I might be tempted to answer, “Primary target destroyed, switching to secondary.”
 
Aren't the destination changes reported to a central location so that a pattern can be detected if there was another coordinated multiple-aircraft attack?
 
Larry in TN said:
Aren't the destination changes reported to a central location so that a pattern can be detected if there was another coordinated multiple-aircraft attack?
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Even so, they don't need to know "why" to detect the pattern.
 
Ravioli said:
What does a VFR flight plan have to do with Flight Following? My opinion: Nothing
I always use flight following and I haven't filed a VFR flight plan since my checkride.

Are you saying that Search and Rescue commences?
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Yes, that is what I am saying. There are two ways that VFR flight following are put into the “computer”. One is into the overlying ARTCCs system. If the aircraft’s beacon code isn’t dropped within a certain distance from the destination airport, it is flagged as overdue and SAR is initiated. The vast majority of these are completed with a phone call “did you work a N12345? They were due at ABC half an hour ago, but you were the last facility we have their track with”. “Yes, they cancelled flight following, I forgot to remove them from the FDIO”.

If they are input locally (you’re flying across my approach control’s airspace), and it’s slow and I observe you change to a 1200 code and go land somewhere, then I don’t worry about it. If I don’t notice you change to a 1200 code, and suddenly I don’t see your target and you don’t answer me anymore, SAR is initiated. If it’s to an airport without a control tower, usually a call is made to the FBO at that airport, “have you seen N12345? They stopped talking to me and were enroute there”.

In either case, if you aren’t located at an airport within 30 mins of your ETA, they’ll go back and pull up the radar data, and follow your target to an airport or the scene of the crash. If your target doesn’t drop at an airport, they’ll (police, EMS) will physically go look for the airplane. If ATC suspects something bad has happened, the 30 minute rule doesn’t apply.

There are a lot of rules on ATC responsibility with VFR aircraft. The presumption is that if you request flight following, it is because you want the extra set of eyes on you...what good is it if when you disappear, they don’t do anything?
 
Jmcmanna said:
Yes, that is what I am saying. There are two ways that VFR flight following are put into the “computer”. One is into the overlying ARTCCs system. If the aircraft’s beacon code isn’t dropped within a certain distance from the destination airport, it is flagged as overdue and SAR is initiated. The vast majority of these are completed with a phone call “did you work a N12345? They were due at ABC half an hour ago, but you were the last facility we have their track with”. “Yes, they cancelled flight following, I forgot to remove them from the FDIO”.

If they are input locally (you’re flying across my approach control’s airspace), and it’s slow and I observe you change to a 1200 code and go land somewhere, then I don’t worry about it. If I don’t notice you change to a 1200 code, and suddenly I don’t see your target and you don’t answer me anymore, SAR is initiated. If it’s to an airport without a control tower, usually a call is made to the FBO at that airport, “have you seen N12345? They stopped talking to me and were enroute there”.

In either case, if you aren’t located at an airport within 30 mins of your ETA, they’ll go back and pull up the radar data, and follow your target to an airport or the scene of the crash. If your target doesn’t drop at an airport, they’ll (police, EMS) will physically go look for the airplane. If ATC suspects something bad has happened, the 30 minute rule doesn’t apply.

There are a lot of rules on ATC responsibility with VFR aircraft. The presumption is that if you request flight following, it is because you want the extra set of eyes on you...what good is it if when you disappear, they don’t do anything?
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Interesting. Good to know. Thanks.
 
I've been chased down on VFR FF before. I was talking to PCT and about the time I hit the Eastern Shore I realized I couldn't hear them anymore. i cancelled in the blind and dialed up 1200. By the time I showed up on OXB's CTAF there were people looking for me. Similarly, I've been asked by ZTL if I could give a call on SVH's unicom and see if a certain plane they had been working was down safely.

The "Airport Manager" for our field rings my phone. I've had calls looking for planes. One was the night of our HOA meeting. I had some friends staying at our house (our airport flyin is the next day).

CHIP: The FAA Called.
ME: What did they want?
CHIP: I don't know I didn't answer.
ME: How do you know it was the FAA?
CHIP: It was in the caller ID.

Turns out one of my neighbors forgot to close his VFR plan. Fortunately, someone else had picked up the call (it's one of these redirector numbers) and let them know he was on the ground safely.

I've had another call from the FAA looking for another neighbor who said he had canceled properly. Guess it got lost.

The strangest showed up on my phone as AMOC.

ME: Long Island Airpark.
AMOC: This is Homeland Security (AMOC turns out to be the Air-Marine Operations Center). Who just departed from your airport.
ME: Don't know, I'm off field right now. I can find out for you and call back.
AMOC: Nah, don't bother. We're tracking him. If he turns back to your place, we'll call.

I quickly called Margy and asked who it was. Turns out a neighbor who had gotten a full briefing and specifically requested and update at 12PM about the TFR start time, was told that the TFR would not go into effect until 2PM.
Now he flies a radial engine plane and it takes near an hour to get that thing pulled out, warmed up, and in to the air. Apparently at 1207 they updated the start time to 1300. He busted the presidential TFR. They were looking for him at his destination and even knew the type and color of his aircraft. HSA was pretty nice about it when they found out he had done everything properly (he did notice the TFR show up on his Garmin and immediately bugged out). The FAA on the other hand strung him along in an enforcement action for months before finally relenting. You do need to give more than 50 minutes advance notice on TFRs.
 
Salty said:
When on VFR flight following, if I change my destination enroute they always ask "why". It doesn't bother me, and I have no problem telling them why or saying "cuz I changed my mind", but I'm curious as heck why there's an obvious procedure to ask since every time I've always been asked. What difference does it make?
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Great discussion! I'm looking forward to mining the wisdom on this site!
 
I’m pretty sure me telling DEN that it was because my wife had to pee, is one of the reasons TSA let up on that silliness for VFR over time. LOL.
 
PaulMillner said:
As noted, after 9/11 TSA decided safety was enhanced if IFR change of destinations were queried. Had a controller actually argue with me one day... I changed my fuel stop because there was a cell sitting on the airport per NEXRAD (XM-Sirius). He told me there wasn't a cell. OK, fine... I see one, and I'm not landing there. Next?

As a result of this silliness, BeechTalk folks developed a standard response to the why change of destination question: "Booty Call!" Let them stew about that a bit, I suppose... or introduce a note of levity.

Paul
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This gives me an idea for the next time. “Now that I hear you on the radio, I know your wife is available.” Ok, I’m not that much of an arse.
 
Salty said:
This gives me an idea for the next time. “Now that I hear you on the radio, I know your wife is available.” Ok, I’m not that much of an arse.
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Oh, don't be so modest.....you're a tremendous arse....;)
 
denverpilot said:
I’m pretty sure me telling DEN that it was because my wife had to pee, is one of the reasons TSA let up on that silliness for VFR over time. LOL.
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The regulatory language most applicable in this situation is: to attend to physiological needs. Both physiological and needs are broad enough to encompass most non aircraft related reasons for diverting. Wife has to pee, I have to pee, kid is hungry, kid is puking, I just need a break. Very flexible language.
 
Arnold said:
The regulatory language most applicable in this situation is: to attend to physiological needs. Both physiological and needs are broad enough to encompass most non aircraft related reasons for diverting. Wife has to pee, I have to pee, kid is hungry, kid is puking, I just need a break. Very flexible language.
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Yeah, but I was picking on my wife since she knew better than to take a diuretic before that flight! LOL.

Why she puts up with me, nobody knows! :)
 
Arnold said:
The regulatory language most applicable in this situation is: to attend to physiological needs. Both physiological and needs are broad enough to encompass most non aircraft related reasons for diverting. Wife has to pee, I have to pee, kid is hungry, kid is puking, I just need a break. Very flexible language.
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But it might be more fun to tell them, “To attend to psychological needs.” :D
 
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