Question about the localizer for the ILS system

tsts4 said:
An HSI most definitely--it's a CDI and directional gyro combined. An RMI can be used for an NDB approach as an ADF display and is very useful in conjunction with a Nav radio and VOR for flying a DME arc plus useful for enroute Nav as well.
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Got it, thanks.
 
tsts4 said:
But does a non-pilot dispatcher really need to know it to that level? If so then I'll shut up and be quiet.
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Well, I have seen cases where the Localizer function of a Nav radio was INOP but the VOR still worked. Same radio, same CDI.

Asking about using a VOR receiver if you don't have a localizer receiver deserved some pedantry imo.
 
BlackManINC said:
The FAA basically says that I can shoot the non-precision localizer approach with a VOR receiver on Runway 21L at Detroit Metro Airport shown below. This of course is also based on everyones explanation here and elsewhere. And like I said, ALL of Detroit Metro Airports approaches are either "RNAV", "ILS" only, or "ILS or LOC" approach procedures like the one below.

1
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You are misunderstanding that plate. It IS NOT permissible to use DXO VOR for lateral guidance. It is for the missed approach procedure and fix. Sometimes on field VORs are used for DME, but not here.

While LOC and VOR receivers come in the same box, they do not behave the same. They also use different frequencies, though the receiver is capable of receiving both groups.
 
Sounds like to me the best thing to do is sit down with a CFI and go over the principles then have him take you up or even in a sim and demonstrate them so you can exactly what everyone has been trying to explain. Sometimes seeing something in action is a better way to get a concept across.
 
tsts4 said:
Sounds like to me the best thing to do is sit down with a CFI and go over the principles then have him take you up or even in a sim and demonstrate them so you can exactly what everyone has been trying to explain. Sometimes seeing something in action is a better way to get a concept across.
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15 minutes in front of a very basic sim would be enough to demonstrate why you want to track the localizer, not the vor
 
We had a guy tracking a nearby VOR when he was supposed to be on the localizer a few years back. Flew into a mountain. ID those stations and compare them to the navaid on the plate!
 
MAKG1 said:
You are misunderstanding that plate. It IS NOT permissible to use DXO VOR for lateral guidance. It is for the missed approach procedure and fix. Sometimes on field VORs are used for DME, but not here.

While LOC and VOR receivers come in the same box, they do not behave the same. They also use different frequencies, though the receiver is capable of receiving both groups.
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Yeah, I see that now. It says that you are going to climb to 1100 feet, then turn left and climb another 4,000 feet and intercept the DXO VOR on the 122 degree radial.

tsts4 said:
Sounds like to me the best thing to do is sit down with a CFI and go over the principles then have him take you up or even in a sim and demonstrate them so you can exactly what everyone has been trying to explain. Sometimes seeing something in action is a better way to get a concept across.
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Well, perhaps this is why 121 dispatchers are actually required by law to spend a minimum of five hours a year in a cockpit or jump seat with a headset to observe actual flight operations or five hours in a flight simulator (FAR FC 121.463). The obvious reason being is they consider 121 dispatchers to be kind of like the pilots on the ground. They get the fuel load, weight and balance and plan the route like an actual pilot would be doing if a dispatcher wasn't available like in some 135 operations where a dispatcher isn't even required. I haven't even started yet so.....yeah, that's why I'm asking these questions.

flyingron said:
We had a guy tracking a nearby VOR when he was supposed to be on the localizer a few years back. Flew into a mountain. ID those stations and compare them to the navaid on the plate!
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Was this in a flight simulator or real world?
 
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BlackManINC said:
Was this in a flight simulator or real world?
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Real world and the pilots and 12 others are really dead as a result. Was a Beech99 back in 1985 at SHD.

Here's the plate (things have changed slightly over time, but all the essential parts are there):
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1701/05369IL5.PDF

They hit the IAF, then flew the Procedure Turn. However, when they came back inbound they appear to have intercepted the 045 degree radial of the MOL VOR (note the inbound course on the LOC is roughly that).

Alas the accident report on things that old aren't the most legible but that's the gist of what happened.
 
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flyingron said:
Real world and the pilots and 12 others are really dead as a result. Was a Beech99 back in 1985 at SHD.

Here's the plate (things have changed slightly over time, but all the essential parts are there):
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1701/05369IL5.PDF

They hit the IAF, then flew the Procedure Turn. However, when they came back inbound they appear to have intercepted the 045 degree radial of the MOL VOR (note the inbound course on the LOC is roughly that).

Alas the accident report on things that old aren't the most legible but that's the gist of what happened.
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I see, well hot damn. I consider this thread to be a sort of "disaster averted" thing.
 
mscard88 said:
Or ask in dispatcher class so all dispatchers learn from the discussion.
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Hell, we had a fairly small class size and I was the one asking more than half the questions throughout. The class was moving fast, and they were trying to cram a minimum of six months of work in three less than months. Taking it all in now to how detail oriented this job really is, some would say that the course should be a year. If it was a high paying job, and 98% of everything we did in the class wasn't completely automated in the real work environment, I would 100% agree with them. In any case, I don't see how anybody can claim to truly be ready for this job in only three months, especially if you have no prior experience and aren't exactly a fast learner, but that's just me.
 
BlackManINC said:
In any case, I don't see how anybody can claim to truly be ready for this job in only three months, especially if you have no prior experience and aren't exactly a fast learner, but that's just me.
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Spent 24 years at an airline and although I am not familiar with the training program, I would think there's a lot of OJT that will occur once you're hired. I think it's great you want to know more, nothing wrong with that at all. Like many jobs, you go thru training and end up not using 100% of what you learned.

Here's a site you can check out. Go to the Regional and Major sections. It's mainly airline pilots commenting but dispatchers pop in too. Maybe start a thread about dispatching and you'll get some actual dispatchers who will chat you up. https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/
 
mscard88 said:
Spent 24 years at an airline and although I am not familiar with the training program, I would think there's a lot of OJT that will occur once you're hired. I think it's great you want to know more, nothing wrong with that at all. Like many jobs, you go thru training and end up not using 100% of what you learned.

Here's a site you can check out. Go to the Regional and Major sections. It's mainly airline pilots commenting but dispatchers pop in too. Maybe start a thread about dispatching and you'll get some actual dispatchers who will chat you up. https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/
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Great, I'll check it out.
 
flyingron said:
They hit the IAF, then flew the Procedure Turn. However, when they came back inbound they appear to have intercepted the 045 degree radial of the MOL VOR (note the inbound course on the LOC is roughly that).
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Oh. Wow. Such an easy error to make: forget to swap the active and standby frequencies. May have even correctly identified both of them ahead of time.
 
NKTFlyer said:
Based on this comment, I get the feeling that you don't know what a circling approach is either. Circling minimums are used when you wish to shoot the instrument approach to one runway, but then land on another.
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In some instances, circling minimums might be used when the approach isn't aligned with any particular runway but the runway complex itself, where there might not be any navaid on the airport. So, you might be shooting an approach to the airport complex rather than a particular runway. Just a point of clarification.
 
BlackManINC said:
Yeah I knew that, I just wanted to further clarify that a vor receiver can be used for the localizer, because in the FAR AIM, it doesn't actually say that an ILS receiver is required to shoot an approach at class B airports where you typically see ILS systems. It only says that, "for IFR operations, you need either a Vor or Tacan receiver".
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I've seen you mention class B airports a couple times and just want to clarify something. The class of airport has absolutely nothing to do with the types of approaches or requirements for them. Class B airports do often have ILS systems, but so do MANY Class C and D airports. The approach requirements are based on the type of approach and equipment. The class of airport only pertains to the airspace rules, and since we're talking about IFR flying here it really doesn't have any bearing on anything in terms of operation of the flight.
 
There are runway requirements for approaches. I know of one airport that has an adjacent grass runway that abuts the main runway (no median). FAA wont approve an approach for that runway and the airport needs it for gliders. You also see lighting, runway size, location and grade, noise abatements and night restrictions. So the configuration and rules of the airport CAN affect the approaches.
 
Honestly it sounds like the dispatch course wasn't presented very well. OP, you may want to sign up for a free AOPA membership and take advantage of their free IFR training modules, which may provide you with a helpful perspective that fills in the gaps left open by your dispatch course.
 
BlackManINC said:
And like I said, ALL of Detroit Metro Airports approaches are either "RNAV", "ILS" only, or "ILS or LOC" approach procedures
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It's designed that way to keep the little tikes like us out of there. :D
 
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