question about experimental aircraft and congested areas

Cap'n Jack

Cap'n Jack

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Cap'n Jack
91.319 states:
Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.
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I suppose this means that a homebuilt experimental plane can't be flown over New York City or other such places?

What am I missing...people fly out of Las Vegas in experimental aircraft?
 
Cap'n Jack said:
91.319 states:


I suppose this means that a homebuilt experimental plane can't be flown over New York City or other such places?

What am I missing...people fly out of Las Vegas in experimental aircraft?
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There have been several versions of experimental operating limits over the years. The version associated with a particular aircraft will determine its limits. For instance, the version associated with my RV-6 has no airspace restrictions after the Phase 1 flight test period (typically the first 25 or 40 hours). Other versions have the restriction you listed, but those can be amended to a more recent less restrictive version by working with the FSDO to update the aircraft's op limits. Plenty of folks go that route with aircraft that have older op limits.
 
Thanks, Kyle!

How does one fiind out experimental operating limits? Are they granted after they are built? Or do RV's (for example) built by the plans get the 25-40 hr limit because they are well known?
 
The DAR issues you your operating limitations at the airworthiness inspection. They are a required document in the aircraft. 25 hour is for a certified engine/prop combo, 40 hours if not. There may be exceptions.

Tim

Cap'n Jack said:
Thanks, Kyle!

How does one fiind out experimental operating limits? Are they granted after they are built? Or do RV's (for example) built by the plans get the 25-40 hr limit because they are well known?
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Cap'n Jack said:
Thanks, Kyle!

How does one fiind out experimental operating limits? Are they granted after they are built? Or do RV's (for example) built by the plans get the 25-40 hr limit because they are well known?
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The 25/40 hour thing is entirely related to the engine/prop combination. RV's get the same fly-off period and limits as, say, a Lancair IVP, with a turbine engine.

The limits are assigned by the DAR when the aircraft is inspected and is issued its registration. The DAR is a surrogate for the FAA and is operating under FAA guidance to apply the same (FAA mandated) rules to all experimental amature built aircraft.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Thanks, Kyle!

How does one fiind out experimental operating limits? Are they granted after they are built? Or do RV's (for example) built by the plans get the 25-40 hr limit because they are well known?
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Jack .. call the FSDO and ask to talk to one of the A/W inspectors
that does experimentals. Or ask for Mark Gaffney, he's an OPs inspector
and is in our EAA chapter. He could direct you to the right person.

RT
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Thanks, Kyle!

How does one fiind out experimental operating limits? Are they granted after they are built? Or do RV's (for example) built by the plans get the 25-40 hr limit because they are well known?
Click to expand...

The 25 hr limit is granted to planes that have an engine/prop combination that is already proven (as in flying in a certified plane already) and known not to have any surprise harmonics that will damage things..

By default you get a 40 hr phase 1 test phase unless you qualify explicitly for the 25 hr period.

During that phase 1 test period you are expected to wring out the plane and demonstrate the envelope.. If you dont go there during phase 1, you aren't supposed to go there during phase 2.

You test your design to the plan builders recommendations, but you are free to set your own gross weight, speeds, approved maneuvers... etc.. because YOU are the manufacturer.

Remember what is legal isnt always smart. A cautious, methodical, test pilot approach to envelope expansion is best. Once you prove the plane is safe in phase 1, you make a logbook endorsement and move to phase 2 ops.. and can operate within the envelope you documented and proved in phase 1.. at least thats how its MEANT to happen. More than 1 person has gone out and flown in circles for 40 hrs.
 
If you are looking to purchase an Experimental, and the seller says it has had the phase 1 and 2 flight time flown off, make sure the entry has been made in the log books. A copy is also required to be in the aircraft with the AW cert and registration. When I was shopping for a Challenger I was surprised at how many don't have them and the log book entry is missing.
 
If you ever need to get a copy of the Operating Limitations for any aircraft you can order them on line from the FAA for $5.00. They get lost, misplaced, worn out, all the time.
 
Dean said:
If you are looking to purchase an Experimental, and the seller says it has had the phase 1 and 2 flight time flown off, make sure the entry has been made in the log books. A copy is also required to be in the aircraft with the AW cert and registration. When I was shopping for a Challenger I was surprised at how many don't have them and the log book entry is missing.
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I feel a need to clarify here...

You don't have to fly off Phase 2 flight time. After Phase 1 flight test (usually the initial 25 or 40 hours), a logbook entry is made which among other things transfers the aircraft to Phase II flight test. Phase II is where Experimentals routinely operate, the idea being that they are experimental and are forever being tested.

There is the option to return the aircraft to Phase 1 flight test if you make major changes to the aircraft. That can (sometimes) be done by logbook entry and would be appropriate if you made a major alteration. Typically, only 5 hours of additional Phase 1 flight testing is required before the aircraft can be returned to Phase II.
 
The definition of a "congested area" has been elusive at times and seems to be a bit like pornography - I'll know it when I see it. My advice would be, if you think you'd have to be flying over NYC to be over a congested area, to do a little research that will be eye opening in terms of what's been ruled a congested area.
 
I fly over NYC all the time..... Time flown off and is registered with an N number

That deals with phase I & II
 
PittsDriver said:
The definition of a "congested area" has been elusive at times and seems to be a bit like pornography - I'll know it when I see it. My advice would be, if you think you'd have to be flying over NYC to be over a congested area, to do a little research that will be eye opening in terms of what's been ruled a congested area.
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Seems to me it's more like if there is an accident and/or complaint and the FAA can't hang anything else on you, the area becomes congested.
 
Dean said:
If you are looking to purchase an Experimental, and the seller says it has had the phase 1 and 2 flight time flown off, make sure the entry has been made in the log books. A copy is also required to be in the aircraft with the AW cert and registration. When I was shopping for a Challenger I was surprised at how many don't have them and the log book entry is missing.
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You are either in phase 1 or phase 2. Either/Or. Phase 2 is normal operations per your ops limits. Phase 1 is flight test.

Please provide chapter and verse of the rule that requires a copy of the logs to be on board...
 
Doggtyred said:
You are either in phase 1 or phase 2. Either/Or. Phase 2 is normal operations per your ops limits. Phase 1 is flight test.

Please provide chapter and verse of the rule that requires a copy of the logs to be on board...
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I suspect he meant that a copy of the operating limits has to be kept in the plane...
 
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