Quality of Flight School Aircraft

BMan

BMan

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BMan
I’m nearing 20hrs of flight training but wondering if my expectations are too high or unwarranted in regards to the quality of C172M aircraft I’m flying? Here are just a few things, all on different aircraft (haven’t flown the same bird twice yet) caught in my preflight inspections or during flight:
  • Landing light inop (it was OK due to daylight?)
  • Navigation lights inop (nearing end of daylight)
  • Strobes inop (early morning)
  • Attitude indicator inop
  • Heading Indicator needs huge adjustment every after every turn
  • Turn coordinator inop
  • Door does not stay shut (popped open in flight) – door closure issues with every plane, too
  • Right seat (occupied by CFI) unlocked and slid all the way backward*
  • Factory preset rudder trim tab very weirdly bent (then felt that affect when flying)
  • Oil cap loose on filler neck, no threads to tighten it, oily mess** (I pushed my PIC-in-training rank on this one)
* CFI managed to get it locked in close enough to reach controls, thankfully.
** This last one I put my foot down and refused to fly (my CFI arrived afterward and agreed with me). However, a different CFI observing my preflight stated it’d be fine as is or just “tape it down”. Um…no…absolutely not. I’ve built engines and raced cars in the past; loose oil caps spit out oil and start a fire on a hot engine in short order; this plane spit out enough previously that it left puddles. How would a young high school kid know any better if they didn’t know engines?

Am I too picky about these things? Some strike me as real safety issues, particularly the last one; That oil cap issue I heard was previously squawked by others but not fixed. This has me hesitating to continue at this flight school but not sure if going somewhere else won’t come with a different set of issues. Feedback/thoughts or is it just me being a far too demanding newb? I don't want them to look at me on lesson day and think "oh great what's he gonna squawk about today?"
 
A new squawk every 2 hours seems like a lot to me.
 
I don’t see how it passed its 100 hour inspection. Taking them individually the only one that bothers me is the oil cap. But taking them as a aggregate, to me, just says that plane has had no maintenance oversight at all. If It has all that crap. What else is wrong with it that you can’t see?
 
I'm a student as well. Any safety concerns that you have, as a reasonable person, are absolutely legitimate. Especially some of the items that you've listed here. When you're PiC your life and the lives of others are your direct responsibility.

The seat being unlocked and sliding back - that was an AD that should have been addressed as that has killed people in the past. What happens when it's not a CFI in that seat, but a passenger, who grabs the yoke when you're departing and their seat suddenly slides back when you're 300ft above the runway at Vy?

These seem like serious items to me (but then again, as stated, I'm just a student, but a pretty admittedly cautious one at that). Your main job is to stay living. Flying is secondary.
 
As noted the oil filler issue is a no-go. However, how well the school can afford to maintain the airplane is in direct proportion to the cost per hour you are paying. Bargain basement rates actually have a cost.

I can say this now because it’s been decades. I flew in a fleet of C-150s that only had one Air Worthiness Certificate between them. We’d stick it in the airplane we were using for the examination and then flip through the document examination quickly for the check ride. It was damn cheap flying.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I don’t see how it passed its 100 hour inspection. Taking them individually the only one that bothers me is the oil cap. But taking them as a aggregate, to me, just says that plane has had no maintenance oversight at all. If It has all that crap. What else is wrong with it that you can’t see?
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I apologize if I wasn't clear, but these were separate issues on separate planes on separate days.
 
Price is important as we all know but that’s too many items that have been not overlooked but simply ignored. Like someone stated earlier”what can’t you see”. Pretty bold of the owner. I mean if there were an incident there would be some serious explaining to do!
 
BMan said:
I’m nearing 20hrs of flight training but wondering if my expectations are too high or unwarranted in regards to the quality of C172M aircraft I’m flying? Here are just a few things, all on different aircraft (haven’t flown the same bird twice yet) caught in my preflight inspections or during flight:
  • Landing light inop (it was OK due to daylight?)
  • Navigation lights inop (nearing end of daylight)
  • Strobes inop (early morning)
  • Attitude indicator inop
  • Heading Indicator needs huge adjustment every after every turn
  • Turn coordinator inop
  • Door does not stay shut (popped open in flight) – door closure issues with every plane, too
  • Right seat (occupied by CFI) unlocked and slid all the way backward*
  • Factory preset rudder trim tab very weirdly bent (then felt that affect when flying)
  • Oil cap loose on filler neck, no threads to tighten it, oily mess** (I pushed my PIC-in-training rank on this one)
* CFI managed to get it locked in close enough to reach controls, thankfully.
** This last one I put my foot down and refused to fly (my CFI arrived afterward and agreed with me). However, a different CFI observing my preflight stated it’d be fine as is or just “tape it down”. Um…no…absolutely not. I’ve built engines and raced cars in the past; loose oil caps spit out oil and start a fire on a hot engine in short order; this plane spit out enough previously that it left puddles. How would a young high school kid know any better if they didn’t know engines?

Am I too picky about these things? Some strike me as real safety issues, particularly the last one; That oil cap issue I heard was previously squawked by others but not fixed. This has me hesitating to continue at this flight school but not sure if going somewhere else won’t come with a different set of issues. Feedback/thoughts or is it just me being a far too demanding newb? I don't want them to look at me on lesson day and think "oh great what's he gonna squawk about today?"
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What bothers me about obvious broken stuff on airplanes is that this is only the stuff you *can see*. It should really make you wonder about what deferred mx you CAN'T see.
And a flight school is like any other business, there's nothing special about it. They're selling you 2 products (the rental and the instruction). If the quality of either sucks or doesn't meet your standards, let them know.
And asking for the door to stay shut in flight is not unreasonable. Asking for an oil cap to actually fit properly and not create an oily mess is not unreasonable either. And FWIW if half my instruments are INOP (even for VFR flying) and half my lights don't work -- I'm going to be emphatically telling the school their plane sucks.
 
BMan said:
Heading Indicator needs huge adjustment every after every turn
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Normal for older steam gauges.
BMan said:
Door does not stay shut (popped open in flight) – door closure issues with every plane, too
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Older well used airplanes have this problem. It usually takes a couple or three tries to get the door to latch correctly.

Well used trainers will have problems. If you are worried about maintenance then check out another flight school and look at their planes.
 
Inop instruments and controls should be removed or placarded per FAR 91.213. A school or rental operation careless about that would be a red flag to me.

I'd have to see the oil cap. Could be you don't know your way around airplanes as well as you do cars. Oil in engine compartments is not unusual and not usually a safety hazard unless the quantity indicates you are losing so much as to risk oil starvation of the engine.

Door latch ... meh. I've had a door open while inverted during an acro contest. Pretty common with older birds. Non-event. Usually means you didn't tilt your head right when closing it.
 
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The students are to blame allways want the cheapest per hour.
 
Are these items fixed quickly or do they remain broken for months?
 
The lights ehhhh.. I can live without those during the day. The seat. In no way would I fly in a plane where the seat may slide back. That just asking for trouble. It’s a simple fix. And the heading indicator, seems like that would be a must. How would you do a checkride without a heading indicator? I mean we are talking about students. It’s hard enough to learn without the extra work load of calibrating after every turn. And no working attitude indicator. WOW that’s asking a lot from a student pilot.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Inop instruments and controls should be removed or placarded per FAR 91.213. A school or rental operation careless about that would be a red flag to me.

I'd have to see the oil cap. Could be you don't know your way around airplanes as well as you do cars...
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Agreed on the instruments. The oil cap w/reservoir level dipstick appears to be stock Lycoming like the rest of their 172 fleet. In this instance, vs the several other C172M aircraft I've flown here, no twist/spin action secured the wiggly cap. It pulled straight up & out with no effort.

I'm not an A&P, but I've checked oil and fuel as part of preflight for decades (flying with buddies) before I began formal PPL training at this part 141 school; securing oil caps is not rocket science. If it just spins round and round, wiggles, and shows signs of spitting out lots of oil from a previous flight, it's no good.
 
Depends on where you are but flight school planes are Hobson's choices. What's your next nearest option?
 
BMan said:
Agreed on the instruments. The oil cap w/reservoir level dipstick appears to be stock Lycoming like the rest of their 172 fleet. In this instance, vs the several other C172M aircraft I've flown here, no twist/spin action secured the wiggly cap. It pulled straight up & out with no effort.

I'm not an A&P, but I've checked oil and fuel as part of preflight for decades (flying with buddies) before I began formal PPL training at this part 141 school; securing oil caps is not rocket science. If it just spins round and round, wiggles, and shows signs of spitting out lots of oil from a previous flight, it's no good.
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Did the dipstick spin freely within the filler tube, or did the filler tube turn with the dipstick?

I agree, sloppy maintenance, and a really easy fix. Replacement part is about $150, and maybe 30 minutes of labor max.

www.aircraftspruce.com

75736 Lycoming Oil Level Gage Tube (11.57 Long) | Aircraft Spruce

75736 Lycoming Oil Level Gage Tube (11.57 Long) Factory New Lycoming Push Rod Shroud Tube Assemblies.
www.aircraftspruce.com www.aircraftspruce.com
 
BMan said:
I'm paying $250/hr for the bird and the CFI; is that cheap?
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Not from where I sit. Our 172s rent for $145 an hour and primary instruction is $50. We do not see any of the issues you mention, and our airplanes get prompt attention when needed.
 
TRC1969 said:
The lights ehhhh.. I can live without those during the day. The seat. In no way would I fly in a plane where the seat may slide back. That just asking for trouble. It’s a simple fix. And the heading indicator, seems like that would be a must. How would you do a checkride without a heading indicator? I mean we are talking about students. It’s hard enough to learn without the extra work load of calibrating after every turn. And no working attitude indicator. WOW that’s asking a lot from a student pilot.
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In that particular plane we had done two clearing turns and the heading indicator went wayward by almost 180 degrees in that 1-2 minutes of turning. I'd turn 90 degrees heading, just a 30-degree bank, and the indicator went 45 degrees or more off heading. Every turn. Fun.
 
BMan said:
Filler tube was rock soild.
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Plastic threads on the top end of the filler tube must be stripped then. Easy fix, and no excuse for them not to have fixed.

Most students have not seen their aircraft with the cowl off. Once you become an owner and start decowling your aircraft all the time for oil changes and such, some of the mysteries are revealed and preflight troubleshooting becomes easier. A Lycoming is a really simple device.
 
If I see duct tape or bailing wire anywhere on one of their fleet ships, I'm going to call it quits there.
 
BMan said:
In that particular plane we had done two clearing turns and the heading indicator went wayward by almost 180 degrees in that 1-2 minutes of turning. I'd turn 90 degrees heading, just a 30-degree bank, and the indicator went 45 degrees or more off heading. Every turn. Fun.
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That's one reason we always did maneuvers above farmland... lots of roads that run N-S and E-W. Heading indicator? Don't need it. Still, it would be nice to have one that works, wouldn't it?

Many of the trainers I flew in - mostly Cherokees, but a couple of 172s - had balky door latches, that's not unusual. For day VFR training I'd note a light out, but it's not a huge deal. I remember having dead landing lights once or twice. Mostly it was the smell of sweat and desperation, and the occasional bad shimmy damper that made things fun. But for premium rates like that, I'd expect something a little more well maintained, to be honest.
 
DaleB said:
That's one reason we always did maneuvers above farmland... lots of roads that run N-S and E-W. Heading indicator? Don't need it. Still, it would be nice to have one that works, wouldn't it?

Many of the trainers I flew in - mostly Cherokees, but a couple of 172s - had balky door latches, that's not unusual. For day VFR training I'd note a light out, but it's not a huge deal. I remember having dead landing lights once or twice. Mostly it was the smell of sweat and desperation, and the occasional bad shimmy damper that made things fun. But for premium rates like that, I'd expect something a little more well maintained, to be honest.
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Yep. My CFI had me maneuvering and returning to a different courses as we went from practice area to practice area and maneuver to maneuver before returning to the FBO. In order to stay ahead of the plane and his instructions to "change course to 120 and maintain 3500...now do a steep turn bringing us to 180 at 3300" etc, I had to make sure that indicator was synched. The magnetic compass was thankfully pretty good so it was quick, but tedious work.
 
In short: run (and take your money with you). This is a potential death trap.

A little longer:
The most prominent red flag is:
"Right seat (occupied by CFI) unlocked and slid all the way backward*"
That is one of the primary reasons for loss of control accidents during take-off caused by wear and tear. Perhaps you take the time a read this article
generalaviationnews.com

Failure to secure seat fatal — General Aviation News

generalaviationnews.com generalaviationnews.com

Some items on your list are easy and cheap to fix, some are not. All in all, we are looking on a grand total of several AMU (Aviation Monetary Unit = 1 AMU = 1.000 USD) to fix the discrepancies. If the flight school cannot afford these necessary repairs, then I am pretty sure that there are a lot more deferred maintenance items you have not spotted yet.

Here is what I recommend to all flight students: search your training aircraft by the tail number on www.aviationdb.com. If there are unpleasant entries refering to FAA or NTSB reports, ask yourself if you have still confidence in this airplane.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I don’t see how it passed its 100 hour inspection. Taking them individually the only one that bothers me is the oil cap. But taking them as an aggregate, to me, just says that plane has had no maintenance oversight at all. If It has all that crap. What else is wrong with it that you can’t see?
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It was several planes. Not one. But still. . .
 
Some posters seem a bit quick to blame the mechanics or poor maintenance for the problems. Before I did that I'd want to know when the last time the aircraft saw the inside of a shop was. It could be that most or all of these problems popped up after the last inspection/service occurred and nobody in the flight school is addressing the problems, for one reason or another.

Take a look around at other flight school options. Sometimes the cheapest option ends up costing more in the long run.
 
mondtster said:
Some posters seem a bit quick to blame the mechanics or poor maintenance for the problems. Before I did that I'd want to know when the last time the aircraft saw the inside of a shop was. It could be that most or all of these problems popped up after the last inspection/service occurred and nobody in the flight school is addressing the problems, for one reason or another.

Take a look around at other flight school options. Sometimes the cheapest option ends up costing more in the long run.
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This is true, sometimes the people that fly them don't notice or don't write up squawks.
 
BMan said:
I'm paying $250/hr for the bird and the CFI; is that cheap?
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Not cheap or the best approach in my opinion. We bought a cheap c-150, used it for private training and post training hours. We worked a deal with a friend to be cfi for free in exchange for free use of the plane whenever he wanted. After putting 200 hours on the c-150 in 2 years we sold the plane for the same price we paid for it.
 
dmspilot said:
This is true, sometimes the people that fly them don't notice or don't write up squawks.
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That's pretty common in my experience. As a flight instructor who is also a mechanic, I probably told the guys taking care of the flight school airplanes about the majority of airworthiness issues that needed to be addressed because the other instructors didn't always notice things or realize that they needed immediate attention. The guys in the shop always took the reports in stride but I'm sure they saw more of me than they would have preferred to.

Not all flight schools have their own mechanics on staff either. This could be a case where the school is trying to limp everything along until the next 100 hour with the intent to take care of it then.
 
BMan said:
I'm paying $250/hr for the bird and the CFI; is that cheap?
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Another data point for you...I'm in a club with a 172M. I describe it as "tired", but frankly it sounds a lot better than your training fleet. I pay $107/hr, wet, plus $50/mo to be a member. I know a couple cfi's who charge $50/hr. Now, I'm in a fairly low cost area. For example, my hangar is $190/mo, up around Chicago they run well north of $500.
 
Jim K said:
Another data point for you...I'm in a club with a 172M. I describe it as "tired", but frankly it sounds a lot better than your training fleet. I pay $107/hr, wet, plus $50/mo to be a member. I know a couple cfi's who charge $50/hr. Now, I'm in a fairly low cost area. For example, my hangar is $190/mo, up around Chicago they run well north of $500.
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Hangars are 600 a month...and the grass was even cut last week!
 
To the OP, I wouldn’t say you are being too picky. A little wear and tear is expected, but it reads as if the place you train at does not have a good approach to maintenance. In your shoes, I’d be looking for another flight school. $250/hour combined is not cheap either.
 
Is easy to criticize when you only know one side of the story so I don’t think a rush to judgment is an order. That said, some of those issues are more concerning than others.

Seat rails are an AD issue for Cessnas every 100 hours so they really shouldn’t be letting them “slip” by.

A lot of the other issues could’ve been caused by renters or students and just not enough time to notice and address them yet. I’ve seen renters bend trim tabs for no good reason and there are some models of the 172s and other aircraft where lights to seem to burn out faster than others.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Plastic threads on the top end of the filler tube must be stripped then. Easy fix, and no excuse for them not to have fixed.
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Do any Lycomings have a threaded dip stick? Not sure, but if not, maybe it's just the dipstick o-ring.
 
Lon Stratton said:
Do any Lycomings have a threaded dip stick? Not sure, but if not, maybe it's just the dipstick o-ring.
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The o-320 in a 172m does, as does the o-360 in an Archer III.
 
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