PT6 question

N747JB

Final Approach
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John
When I bought the Conquest in April, the left engine ran slightly hotter than the right, maybe 10 degrees at cruise with the torques matched. After 20 or so hours I noticed the left engine getting hotter, temping out at 10,000 ft, vs 16-18,000!:eek: Had a compressor wash done last month during a phase inspection. The mechanics comment was lots of black gunk came out of the left side, I think black gunk is a mechanical term for black crap!:D The right side was much cleaner.:confused:
Anyway, now the temps are matched up, or at least within 10 degrees.:D
My question is what causes this? My thought was that a lot of low altitude, low temp operations, might have something to do with it, since these engines are designed to run at close to max temps, or so I'm told. :idea:
Any thoughts as to what would cause one engine to get sooted up while the other stayed fairly clean?
Thanks
 
Someone's going to have to go drag Wayne to a computer and away from his golf game.


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How are the fuel flows. Pretty even? And when was the last time the nozzles were flow checked. Normally it's a 400 hour check. A few of them might be going bad.
 
Buncha black gunk sounds like worn out nozzles (or compressor :eek:)
 
I guess I forgot that part, the left (hotter) engine had a LOWER fuel flow than the right! Fuel nozzles were checked by West Star less than 100 hours ago.:confused:

How are the fuel flows. Pretty even? And when was the last time the nozzles were flow checked. Normally it's a 400 hour check. A few of them might be going bad.
 
The shop didn't feel like it was a compressor issue, hot sections were done about 500 hours ago. Issue is pretty much resolved, I'm just trying to figure out what would cause one engine to soot up?

If the temps and torque and FF are matched and a compressor wash brought it back it wouldn't be a compressor problem. :nonod:
 
The shop didn't feel like it was a compressor issue, hot sections were done about 500 hours ago. Issue is pretty much resolved, I'm just trying to figure out what would cause one engine to soot up?

A leaky oil seal or possibly the fuel isn't getting purged completely on shutdown would make for an unusually high buildup. If it wasn't flushed in a long time you could have some buildup or maybe coking around the combustion liner/nozzles if that hasn't been cleaned in awhile. We just flushed our engine a couple days ago and the water was murky but nothing major. After the flush you should've gone back to normal temps.
 
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I have no clue or experience on turbines. But I have a question: which engine is normally started first? Would the first, starting only on battery power be inclined to start slower than the second which would benefit from the higher voltage of the first engine's generator? And then . . .

See, I told you I don't know anything about turbines.

Scott
 
Yea like others have said... When were the nozzles cleaned last? If I remember correctly on the Caravan Phase inspections I believe they are cleaned every so often. Last nozzle I seen go bad chewed through the combustor liner and some turbine blades were ruined. There is different type of washes for the pt6 because of the centrifugal compressor design if you didn't know that already; here is a link with some reading material starting at page 31. Seems odd that is it only on one engine so IMHO it points to something else and might warrant further investigation if you get a split in temps like that again.

http://www.pwc.ca/files/en/Know_your_PT6A.pdf
 
The shop didn't feel like it was a compressor issue, hot sections were done about 500 hours ago. Issue is pretty much resolved, I'm just trying to figure out what would cause one engine to soot up?
Just a thought, but when did you start noticing this problem? Was it after the Hot section? I had one start acting bad on my after a hot section (would temp out earlier than normal) and we actually found a missing seal from the hot section inspection. Just a thought. I would assume that this has not been going on for 500hr.
 
Are they saying they think the junk was from the compressor?

I'm not too familiar with the PT-6 detailed architecture, but what would come to my mind is that junk on the compressor blades would reduce efficiency, thus reducing airflow to that engine and it would temp out earlier. Left engine on the Cheyenne was similar (although they never washed it). I think it had a seal that was leaking oil slightly.
 
Well something is getting in there and burning, if its in the compressor then I'd bet oil. I'm no PT-6 expert though.
 
When they do a compressor wash, is it limited to the compressor or do they wash all the way through?
 
I believe if you just spray the compressor in the pt6 it will not get through the hot section because of the two 180 deg turns in the combustor area. Some probably will, but they have a provision to do a turbine wash also.
 
When they do a compressor wash, is it limited to the compressor or do they wash all the way through?

The stuff that we use on the RR 250 is called ZOK compressor cleaner. The mech injects it into the front of the compressor and then we motor the starter to get it through the blades. It'll pool in the combustion chamber and will cause corrosion so we have to drain it and then start it. On start up a residual amount will go out through the exhaust.

I'm sure the PT-6 uses something similar. It may go all the way through the exhaust but it's purpose is to clean the front compressor section.
 
I just looked at the West Star invoice from last November, they sent the fuel nozzles out for inspection and flow check, that was maybe 100 hours ago.
I'll keep any eye on the temps going forward and I don't foresee a lot of low power operations like I had this Spring and Summer, with all the trips to the avionics shop and short trips to Athens.;)
 
John, a couple of things to consider. Unless you know your gauges are accurate you don't have useful info. Fuel flow and TIT must be calibrated or you don't really know what is going on. In very broad terms the fuel nozzles can cause improper flame and CAN lead to sooting in the PT section. It is generally accepted that temps close to max are better for the PT wheels. Worn CT blades can lead to increased temps and decreased performance but normally does not cause sooting.
Low altitude will cause more sooting per hour since you are burning more fuel. In other words the soot on external surfaces will be worse. This should not be different from engine to engine. The "temp out" altitude should be close to the same for both engines. Again, you must have accurate gauges to be able to determine fuel flows verses performance. You need to know that the torque, fuel flow and temps are for real before you can troubleshoot anything on the PT6. Which PT6's are you running?
To the original question, lower fuel flows, higher temps at the same torque is for sure a sign something is different right verses left.
Do some research on the pros and cons on compressor washing, especially concerning corrosion.
 
They are -112's. I've flown one round trip since the compressor wash and the temps were very close, the left side was maybe 10 degrees hotter at altitude, not bad. I actually had the temperature probes and gauges checked, they are within spec and for now the engines are matched up and temping out at the expected altitude.:) I've got a few more trips coming up I around Christmas, so I can see if they stay the same.
I haven't heard anything against compressor washing, I know some engine/airframes recommend it more frequently. Is there an issue that I'm not aware of? :confused:


John, a couple of things to consider. Unless you know your gauges are accurate you don't have useful info. Fuel flow and TIT must be calibrated or you don't really know what is going on. In very broad terms the fuel nozzles can cause improper flame and CAN lead to sooting in the PT section. It is generally accepted that temps close to max are better for the PT wheels. Worn CT blades can lead to increased temps and decreased performance but normally does not cause sooting.
Low altitude will cause more sooting per hour since you are burning more fuel. In other words the soot on external surfaces will be worse. This should not be different from engine to engine. The "temp out" altitude should be close to the same for both engines. Again, you must have accurate gauges to be able to determine fuel flows verses performance. You need to know that the torque, fuel flow and temps are for real before you can troubleshoot anything on the PT6. Which PT6's are you running?
To the original question, lower fuel flows, higher temps at the same torque is for sure a sign something is different right verses left.
Do some research on the pros and cons on compressor washing, especially concerning corrosion.
 
First one quick question. Do you get any smoke out of the stack as the turbine spools down to a stop?

The -112, Conquest I and maybe the Caravan? Not sure. Anyway on the compressor wash. First I am not a PT6 expert by any means. I do read a lot and the mechanic that did all of the maintenance on the plane I just retired from flying is an expert. I was present for all maintenance and did not shy away from asking questions. In fact we became good friends and still talk frequently.
If you are flying in salt areas, coastal or you are flying at low altitudes (Caravans, ag work for example) you should follow P & W washing instructions. The salt can combine with the sulpher in fuel and lead to sulfidation. Also the low turbine temps can cause more carbon build up. I will skip this since it does not apply to you.

If you are doing a "compressor performance recovery wash" then a rinse of drinking water quality water must follow this. Both are to be done a 10-25 %Ng

Here is where there is a difference of opinion. The CT and PT blades slide into their respective hubs. Some say the soap used in the power recovery wash gets into the spaces around the blade to hub area and is difficult to wash out causing corrosion in that area of the blades. This would be exasperated if the cleaning is done and the engine sets for hours or perhaps days before it is run. My mechanic said that the PT 6 run at the proper temps should not have any build up even at several hundred hours. My engines were the -61's which are somewhat bigger than yours but should be the same principle. We never did compressor washes. These particular engines were 24 years old with just under 4000 hours at OH and had no sign of sulfidation or corrosion.

Again, not giving advice just throwing out ideas. If this happens again I would want a borescope done by somebody that has the correct attachments to do the Pratt engines and see if you are getting carbon build up. If you are, something is wrong. I promise you these engines do not resolve their problems on their own.

I am not familiar with the -112 engine but, I do have a question. I believe their thermodynamic rating is just 500 HP. Are they flat rated to a lower HP? If not it would seem they would temp out way before 16,000 feet. Not related to the OP, just curious.

Edit: I do not think there is anyway to check the thermo couple ring itself. At hot section they may have been replaced. There is a trim stick that the overhauler uses to get the the thermocouple to give the correct temperature. This is normally checked at overhaul on the test stand. It is all kind of magic to me. All the mechanic can do is inject a millivolt signal into the leads at the engine and see it they read correctly. Any corrosion at any junction can throw this off. As far as I know you just have to hope the thermocouples along with the trim stick is correct. IMO if you have accurate fuel flow this is the best way to match engines. I know we are all told to match torque. The torque is actually an oil pressure sensor and can be a little flaky. I found it hard to get the torque gauges to read linear full scale, YMMV. If you happen to have digital fuel flow that you know is accurate I think the matched FF is better. This is all just opinion and may not be worth anymore than you paid for it.:dunno:
 
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Edit: I do not think there is anyway to check the thermo couple ring itself. At hot section they may have been replaced. There is a trim stick that the overhauler uses to get the the thermocouple to give the correct temperature. This is normally checked at overhaul on the test stand. It is all kind of magic to me. All the mechanic can do is inject a millivolt signal into the leads at the engine and see it they read correctly. Any corrosion at any junction can throw this off. As far as I know you just have to hope the thermocouples along with the trim stick is correct. IMO if you have accurate fuel flow this is the best way to match engines. I know we are all told to match torque. The torque is actually an oil pressure sensor and can be a little flaky. I found it hard to get the torque gauges to read linear full scale, YMMV. If you happen to have digital fuel flow that you know is accurate I think the matched FF is better. This is all just opinion and may not be worth anymore than you paid for it.:dunno:

You can check the accuracy of the thermocouple in the circuit you are testing. You apply a known quantity of heat to it, preferably a temperature close to the expected reading since thermocouples are non-linear. With the heat applied you can then adjust your gauge to read the correct temperature. This practice is done all the time in test labs but odds are a typical maintenance shop may not have the equipment to do it. Personally, I wouldn't get too hung up on temperature readings. If you're within a few degrees of your expected temps I don't think you're going to get much closer.
 
Just exactly how are you going to get to the thermocouple ring without a hot section disassembly?
 
Just exactly how are you going to get to the thermocouple ring without a hot section disassembly?

Sorry, I can't help you with that part. I took your comment to mean that thermocouples couldn't be calibrated in general, not just in this specific application. It sounds like calibrating this one would be cost prohibitive unless you were doing a major repair.
 
Actually even if you could get to them you would need a molten salt bath or something similar to get the temps up to where you need for the I think type K. Anyway, totally out of my wheelhouse. Like I said earlier, the way the overhaul shops do that is close to magic, at least for me.
I have seen my mechanic check to see if they were working during a time he opened up the hot section. He put a meter to each one and heated the thermocouple with a torch. He went to each one in the ring to see if there was any output. He said a thermocouple is like a lightbulb, it either works or it don't. Seems like there are six in each ring.
 
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