Pros/Cons of Joining the Civil Air Patrol?

denverpilot said:
Wow. I'm a supporter in general of CAP and even I'm more than ready to vote to de-fund any organization that wrote that drivel.
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There actually are a couple of good ideas in there, but they sure did bury them in a heap of bureaucratese! :rofl:
 
denverpilot said:
Wow. I'm a supporter in general of CAP and even I'm more than ready to vote to de-fund any organization that wrote that drivel.
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As both perpetrator and victim of strategic planning, I would say that this one is below a poor average of quality. The verbosity and determination to "focus" on a hundred different things, though, is not atypical.

The problem is this: If every organization that produced a strategic plan like this one was "de-funded" the US unemployment rate would probably go up two or three points. Maybe more.

The good news is that, like most strategic plans that cannot be summarized in an elevator speech, it will be pretty well forgotten in a few months anyway.
 
airdale said:
As both perpetrator and victim of strategic planning, I would say that this one is below a poor average of quality. The verbosity and determination to "focus" on a hundred different things, though, is not atypical.

The problem is this: If every organization that produced a strategic plan like this one was "de-funded" the US unemployment rate would probably go up two or three points. Maybe more.

The good news is that, like most strategic plans that cannot be summarized in an elevator speech, it will be pretty well forgotten in a few months anyway.
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Amen to that!

I was in several strategic planning sessions with an organization that I belonged to years ago. I thought the whole process was an incredible waste of time and money. From what I could see nothing of any benefit to the organization ever came out of it.
 
denverpilot said:
Ahh hell, I misread it.

Here's the summary you'll receive from PoA:

- Some folks will say they've had good experiences in CAP.
- Other folks will say they don't like it and will shout everyone else down who says there are good squadrons and bad squadrons.

That last part is probably the most important. Visit one and see how it runs, and don't believe anything you hear... ask pilots who've been there less than a year if they're involved in flying and missions yet, or if there's a cadre of old-timers that has them pushing the paperwork for them.

And don't kid yourself... there's a metric ass-ton of paperwork to be done. It's volunteer and managed by USAF liasons who think you have time in your normal day to do as much paperwork as they do, flying a desk.

That said, I enjoyed my time in CAP and even on Wing staff as a Communications Engineer under the Wing DC. I just moved wayyyyyy too far out of town to ever make a squadron or Wing staff meeting, and the DC just happened to be "retiring" around the same time, so it was a good time to make a clean exit...

For the second time.

Don't ever tell anyone you know a damned thing about radios, and pretend you don't even know how a mash to mumble button works... or you'll find yourself manning a radio for 16 hours a day during live missions and "the expert" on radios. :)

Still fulfilling knowing you helped, but if you're a pilot... stick to pretending you know nothing but airplanes. :) :) :)
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Necrothread, sure, but the topic isn't necro so I'll post to agree with Nate.

For me the best thing about CAP was the guys I worked and flew with. I met some extremely accomplished pilots in CAP. I met and flew with Vietnam combat pilots, current and retired airline guys, numerous instructors, expert mountain pilots, and too many motivated, competent private pilots to name. I met cops, paramedics, teachers, doctors, finance experts, entrepreneurs, members of the media, politicians. What I took from CAP was directly proportional to what I put into CAP.

Never mind the structure bureaucracy of the CAP itself. It is patterned after the USAF to which it reports. It can be frustrating but isn't necessarily frustrating. In 2004, I was frustrated at not being able to get air crew training done very quickly. It got a lot better over the 6 years I was a member of CO-162 as the squadron moved more toward a training focus, which ebbed and flowed with funding.

Agree with Nate on the Comm thing. I was squadron ES and Comm Officer and a Comm Unit Leader in the -- whatever they call it now -- Incident Command system. It was fun. I liked it and learned a ton.

Another aspect of CAP that I admired was the cadet program. Physical training, learning, achievement, accountability, respect. I know other orgs teach that stuff too but whoever does it... it can't be a bad thing.

A rare few poor souls go into CAP thinking it's an easy way to fly on the cheap or get ratings or whatever. Not so. Don't go in for that reason because you will soon quit. I think this myth has largely been dispelled but it bears repeating.
 
I wish it were dispelled.

I'm a recruiting and retention officer, and I make DANG sure to mention using CAP as a source for free or cheap flying isn't going to work well. 'Cause I find a lot of people think it will. If emergency services float your boat, you'll be happy; it's a way to exercise that. The PITA factor for just going out flying is significantly higher than for a flying club, and flying off orders is not free (but it is cheap -- though not much cheaper than a rental 172 unless you fly real slow)! The checkout procedure is significantly more expensive than a flying club unless you're already proficient on a 182 (G1000, if that's what the squadron has), as the checkout is basically a flight review. Plus an IPC if you want instrument privileges.

I've heard senior command staff tell recruits they can get advanced ratings in the CAP aircraft. I object; while that's literally true, it's practically impossible, so IMO it's unethical to dangle that carrot. You have to find a CAP instructor willing to do all that work for free, and you won't.

The type of flying CAP does is quite different from everyday flying. A search is flown on a rather precise path (usually GPS enhanced, though it can be done visually, and we all have to demonstrate that as part of a Form 91 checkout), generally at 1000 AGL unless there is some reason to go higher. You pay much more attention to terrain and obstructions, as it's not an option to just go flying around at 2500 AGL if you actually want to find anything visually. Electronic searches are another story, but you'll still want to get close in to narrow it down.

Same deal with aerospace education (given that my squadron is very close to a NASA aeronautics facility, that's a big deal). If you enjoy that, it's a way to exercise it.

Marching around for seniors just doesn't happen. That's to teach the cadets attention to detail.

IMO, it's very much worth it. It's not for everyone.
 
MAKG1 said:
I wish it were dispelled.

I've heard senior command staff tell recruits they can get advanced ratings in the CAP aircraft. I object; while that's literally true, it's practically impossible, so IMO it's unethical to dangle that carrot. You have to find a CAP instructor willing to do all that work for free, and you won't.
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Two friends in CAP (or used to be) worked it out - one, a CFII, willing to do it gratis, and the other a VFR pilot; but the hassles grew so thick they gave it up, and did it via a club airplane.

There was some good, fun flying - CAP gets a little over the top and breathless about being a "Mission Pilot" and the "demands" of flying searches; it's a bit overblown - not like a 1,000 AGL is exactly nap-of-the-earth. Touchier in mountains, of course. But if you can trim for level flight, and hold altitude in a turn, you can pretty much do the job.

Again, it might be worth your time to at least take a look, attend a couple of meetings; it could work out for you, depending on your personal tolerances and preferences, and the character of the squadron.

Not to be too contrarian with recent posters, but once you are a MP, there is rarely a good reason to pay to fly a CAP airplane - fly a funded training or other mission. Otherwise, the difference in costs (especially for a 172) isn't worth the trouble, unless your local FBO(s) are hideous expensive.
 
For what it's worth, I'd look into the USCG aux WAAAY before the CAP.
 
James331 said:
For what it's worth, I'd look into the USCG aux WAAAY before the CAP.
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I did. I found it was impractical unless you owned your own twin. Even if there was a flotilla within reasonable distance.

USCGAUX, like everyone else, frowns at taking singles out of gliding distance of shore.
 
They have been quite interested in my with my single engine. Play for fuel, oil, mx, and they seem to be way less BS factor.
 
James331 said:
They have been quite interested in my with my single engine. Play for fuel, oil, mx, and they seem to be way less BS factor.
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I have a flying buddy who did both, for quite a while. The only USCG AUX issue was getting 4 point harnesses.

About over water - the AUX flies singles 500 AGL over the Chesapeake Bay, so that has them out of range of land quite a bit, but it is protected water, with lot's of surface traffic.

I had CAP missions 70+ miles off shore, Atlantic, though that was unusual.
 
I'm happy to report 'Operation Burrito' was a success!

IMG_1867.jpg


I don't know the specifics of the operation but it seemed to entail grabbing lunch at Enrique's, a Mexican restaurant on field at KPNC.
 
I would like to announce 'Operation Burrito' is still in full effect...

IMG_1973.jpg


Repeat of last mission however instead of two mission pilots, it looks as though this was a single mission pilot, his mother and maybe his brother or friend riding along.... very important business this chapter is conducting.
 
OkieAviator said:
I would like to announce 'Operation Burrito' is still in full effect...



Repeat of last mission however instead of two mission pilots, it looks as though this was a single mission pilot, his mother and maybe his brother or friend riding along.... very important business this chapter is conducting.
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They would have to be members.
 
OkieAviator said:
I would like to announce 'Operation Burrito' is still in full effect...

IMG_1973.jpg


Repeat of last mission however instead of two mission pilots, it looks as though this was a single mission pilot, his mother and maybe his brother or friend riding along.... very important business this chapter is conducting.
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What's wrong with grabbing a bite on a training or proficiency mission? CAP pilots have to eat, too, after all.

I don't understand. You're objecting to exactly what? The Air Force doesn't fund $100 burgers.
 
OkieAviator said:
I would like to announce 'Operation Burrito' is still in full effect...

IMG_1973.jpg


Repeat of last mission however instead of two mission pilots, it looks as though this was a single mission pilot, his mother and maybe his brother or friend riding along.... very important business this chapter is conducting.
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Interesting..

NO one is allowed to fly in the CAP planes here without being a CAP member and having the proper tests / checkout's done..

I wonder how he got the flight release from god..
 
OkieAviator said:
I would like to announce 'Operation Burrito' is still in full effect...
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Slow day for you, then? Monitoring the ramp has to be pretty boring. I guess speculating on things you know nothing about might spice things up a bit.
 
airdale said:
Slow day for you, then? Monitoring the ramp has to be pretty boring. I guess speculating on things you know nothing about might spice things up a bit.
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Ruh Row....

The Cappies are getting defensive...
 
N801BH said:
Interesting..

NO one is allowed to fly in the CAP planes here without being a CAP member and having the proper tests / checkout's done..
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Not precisely no one, but dang close. There are procedures for flying local emergency workers, for instance. That requires PITA approvals and just ain't happening to haul family members along. And, rather recently, NHQ has authorized using CAP aircraft for Angel Flights, at the member's expense.

Heck, I'd like to give my son a ride, but he'll have to grow to 12 and join CAP like everyone else.
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm having trouble figuring out what you're trying to say in that sentence.
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CAP planes can't go up without prior approval (A flight release) from someone on the ground. No flight release officer would approve the flight knowing a non-CAP member was on board.

Aside from that CAP is the reason I was able to get my private pilots certificate and instrument rating as a cadet. The instructors I have ran across have all been great guys, volunteering their time to help cadets learn about aviation. The SAR missions aside they do a lot of great flying to expose kids to general aviation.
 
RileyMitchum said:
CAP planes can't go up without prior approval (A flight release) from someone on the ground. No flight release officer would approve the flight knowing a non-CAP member was on board.

Aside from that CAP is the reason I was able to get my private pilots certificate and instrument rating as a cadet. The instructors I have ran across have all been great guys, volunteering their time to help cadets learn about aviation. The SAR missions aside they do a lot of great flying to expose kids to general aviation.
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Yup.. That was my point....
 
RileyMitchum said:
CAP planes can't go up without prior approval (A flight release) from someone on the ground.
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I know, but it looked like he was asking how the guy got a flight release from god.

No flight release officer would approve the flight knowing a non-CAP member was on board.
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I didn't see any mention one way or the other about whether the passengers were members.
 
airdale said:
Slow day for you, then? Monitoring the ramp has to be pretty boring. I guess speculating on things you know nothing about might spice things up a bit.
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Obviously it's a slow day, I flew an airplane to lunch... if I was in a hurry then I don't think that would of been the best use of my time. Doesn't take much to 'monitor the ramp' since in the first picture they were parked next to me, and in the picture today I walked right past it on the way to my plane. If it makes you feel better I didn't even bother to get close to the plane to take a good picture, just a snap on the phone... doesn't really put me out much.

So all I'm left with is the speculation on what 'Operation Burrito' truly consists of... made that clear on my first picture...
OkieAviator said:
I don't know the specifics of the operation but it seemed to entail grabbing lunch at Enrique's, a Mexican restaurant on field at KPNC.
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Maybe some of you military cosplay types can let me in on the details...
 
James331 said:
I think that's the best description of the CAP I've come across
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I turned one of my old military flight suits into my airplane building fiberglass coveralls... my kid came out and asked what I was wearing and I told him it was my tactical 'onesy' from the Navy. Actually impressed it still fits...
 
OkieAviator said:
Maybe some of you military cosplay types can let me in on the details...
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ROFL! "Military Cosplay"! I love it... I've met a few like that when I was active in CAP. I wasn't interested.

As far as this flight goes, could be training, could be simple currency, could be a lot of stuff. Stopping for lunch isn't much of interest.

(Recently I was reading a friend's descriptions from a few years ago up at UND, and was amazed to read that their flight program was so overwhelmed back then with a mixture of "contract" -- as in foreign flight students not pursuing a degree with the school -- and "undergrads" that UND wouldn't even authorize stopping for lunch on long-assed flights because they needed the airplanes turned around so bad, or whatever their excuse was. Hints of "safety" always tossed in for good measure, apparently. It's OT for this thread, but the lunch-stop thing made me think of it. I don't know if I have permission to link to his article about it, but wow... sounded... ridiculous and non-fun. Especially for the price you'd pay to go there as an undergrad. Ouch. I suppose if this triggers any desire to discuss, someone could start a separate thread on it...)
 
OkieAviator said:
I turned one of my old military flight suits into my airplane building fiberglass coveralls... my kid came out and asked what I was wearing and I told him it was my tactical 'onesy' from the Navy. Actually impressed it still fits...
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I use a baggy old Army mechanic jumpsuit for washing the belly of the plane. I still come out soaking wet underneath the thing, but at least the crud is on the jumper and not me.
 
N801BH said:
Ruh Row....

The Cappies are getting defensive...
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Not at all. I know nothing about the situation and could care less.

The interesting thing is to speculate about the type of personality and the type of life of a person who has nothing better to do than to post this kind of drivel. Possibly if you got a life, you'd have something more productive to do?
 
airdale said:
Not at all. I know nothing about the situation and could care less.

The interesting thing is to speculate about the type of personality and the type of life of a person who has nothing better to do than to post this kind of drivel. Possibly if you got a life, you'd have something more productive to do?
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:p
 
airdale said:
Not at all. I know nothing about the situation and could care less.

The interesting thing is to speculate about the type of personality and the type of life of a person who has nothing better to do than to post this kind of drivel. Possibly if you got a life, you'd have something more productive to do?
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I think it's because the American citizens are not making enough money not to care how it's spent, their dollar is worth less and less, resulting in less and less money in John Q Smiths bank account, yet the government spends more and more and steals more and more out of Mr. Smiths paycheck.

Since most everyone knows the CAP gets it's funding from the tax payers, folks are going to be critical of anyone "playing" around on our tab, especially when we don't have a choice not to pay for it.
 
James331 said:
I think it's because the American citizens are not making enough money not to care how it's spent, their dollar is worth less and less, resulting in less and less money in John Q Smiths bank account, yet the government spends more and more and steals more and more out of Mr. Smiths paycheck.

Since most everyone knows the CAP gets it's funding from the tax payers, folks are going to be critical of anyone "playing" around on our tab, especially when we don't have a choice not to pay for it.
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EXACTLY....

The Cappies always forget ( or want to downplay) .. ALL CAP planes belong to EVERY taxpaying citizen of the United States and get mad when someone dares to take a picture of it, or comments about their activities without their permission.....

The ultimate show of arrogance.......:mad::mad::mad:
 
denverpilot said:
ROFL! "Military Cosplay"! I love it... I've met a few like that when I was active in CAP. I wasn't interested.
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Same here. I especially roll my eyes at the compulsive efforts to find new ways to change the uniform designs, and I thought that changing the color of the non-military version of the flight suits was abusive of the volunteers' finances. Fortunately, by the time I became active again, I had lost enough weight so that regulations allowed me to wear the hand-me-down military one that I had previously gotten for cheap.
 
James331 said:
Since most everyone knows the CAP gets it's funding from the tax payers, folks are going to be critical of anyone "playing" around on our tab, especially when we don't have a choice not to pay for it.
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You do actually. CAP government funding all comes directly from Congress.

Without getting into the crazy details of how to set up a lobby, or a massive letter writing campaign, and assuming Congress even pays attention to such things below at least millions of letters...

You supposedly do have a voice in it.

To lament the state of how "representative" 500 or so people can really be of a nation of closing on 400 million, or how best to influence that mess, is best left for a political website. But if you have a way of organizing the opponents to spending money on it, you do have input on it.

All it takes in theory, is more warm bodiesthst don't want it spent, than want it spent, that way.

Cautionary tale: Unintended consequences lie here. The mandate for inland SAR would still fall legally to USAF and nobody is going to remove that requirement without a better solution. And I bet their solution if you close down CAP would be a LOT more expensive. But fire up the new Anti-CAP SuperDuperPAC and find out, if you like. A USAF general may just kiss you for it.

Maybe they'd decide to privatize it and we could start a bid for the "PoA SAR Team" to rise and take it all over nationwide. Do that and a few of us could get very rich, especially if we can get the whole thing bid as Cost Plus! Woooot! Steak dinner at Ruth's Chris for all mission pilots after landing for the day, sounds like a reasonable thing to put in the bid, doesn't it?

And psssh on G1000 182s. Let's get something way better for the job. Many somethings. With way more expensive toys on board installed by Sierra Nevada Corp. They'll help us lobby. They love those kinds of contracts!
 
N801BH said:
EXACTLY....

The Cappies always forget ( or want to downplay) .. ALL CAP planes belong to EVERY taxpaying citizen of the United States and get mad when someone dares to take a picture of it, or comments about their activities without their permission.....

The ultimate show of arrogance.......:mad::mad::mad:
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You don't need our permission to comment about our activities, and we don't need your permission to comment on your comments. :p:p:p
 
airdale said:
Not at all. I know nothing about the situation and could care less.

The interesting thing is to speculate about the type of personality and the type of life of a person who has nothing better to do than to post this kind of drivel. Possibly if you got a life, you'd have something more productive to do?
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It's obvious that you both care and take personal insult in what I posted since you resorted to the amateurish deflection tactic of trying to insinuate that I have no life... perhaps you're technically challenged in which taking pictures on a phone and posting them on the internet take up a majority of your day. So to keep you from speculating I've spent more time today urinating then I've spent typing these posts out... then again maybe you have prostate issues and spend a lot of time urinating, I don't know I can only speculate for now.
 
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