Proposed Rule - Agent for Service

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kkoran

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FAA is proposing a requirement that certificate holders with no physical US address designate an agent for service of FAA documents.

Regulations.gov

www.regulations.gov www.regulations.gov

While one might think this would only apply to foreign pilots who hold a US certificate, it would also apply to US citizens living outside the US. This includes military members and other government employees/ family members stationed overseas.

The agent could be a family member or friend who resides in the US, however, if a certificate holder doesn't have someone willing and able to act as their agent, they will have to hire an agent. The FAA estimates it will cost $150 - $300 per year to hire an agent.

Comments on the proposed rule are due by August 11.
 
So the FAA requires a physical address, as do other organizations. Works for me. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I need to comment that it’s a good idea.
 
Maybe add a warehouse in OKC somewhere that the FAA can store their certificates for free and save the $150-300/year while they’re overseas.
 
You’d think they would make an exception for APO/FPO.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Maybe add a warehouse in OKC somewhere that the FAA can store their certificates for free and save the $150-300/year while they’re overseas.
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Just put the address used to send your medical records too when trying to get an SI. By the time they read the messages you'll be back in country.
 
MauleSkinner said:
That might be a good comment to make on the NPRM.
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An APO or FPO isn’t a physical address.

Reading the NPRM, if you’ve already got a physical US-based address on file with FAA, having an overseas mailing address is fine.

The FAA therefore proposes to amend 14 CFR part 3 to add subpart C with §§ 3.301 through 3.303 to require individuals with foreign addresses, AND no U.S. physical address of record on file with the FAA, who hold or apply for certificates, ratings, or authorizations issued under 14 CFR part 47, 61, 63, 65, 67, or 107, as specified below, to designate a U.S. agent for service of certain FAA documents.
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*emphasis added.

Where this will likely be a factor for a military member or other .gov employee is trying to get a rating while at Osan AB, Korea and you’re filling out IACRA. Even then, for most military members, they will have a ‘permanent’ physical address as a family member’s physical address, so now we’re down to orphans and/or being a single offspring with both parents deceased.

I think the bigger impact will be to the foreign nationals having an FAA cert but working back in their home country. Next biggest impact will be to expats actively using their cert, but again, they probably have a physical address on file.

The ‘why’ behind the rule is some countries refuse to consider notification by mail as valid notification and require the FAA to route the request thru the respective national civil aviation authority who charges the FAA to legally deliver the notice. The FAA wants to shift that to sending the US-based agent the notification and let them tell the overseas airman about it.

 
TCABM said:
An APO or FPO isn’t a physical address.
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exactly…that’s why it would be an “exception”.
TCABM said:
Reading the NPRM, if you’ve already got a physical US-based address on file with FAA, having an overseas mailing address is fine.


*emphasis added.

Where this will likely be a factor for a military member or other .gov employee is trying to get a rating while at Osan AB, Korea and you’re filling out IACRA. Even then, for most military members, they will have a ‘permanent’ physical address as a family member’s physical address, so now we’re down to orphans and/or being a single offspring with both parents deceased.
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possibly still worthy of an exception.
TCABM said:
I think the bigger impact will be to the foreign nationals having an FAA cert but working back in their home country. Next biggest impact will be…
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which are also most likely to be relevant to the reason for implementing the rule.
 
those mail forwarders like St Brendan's Isle are gonna see an uptick in business :D
 
Is somebody going to tell them about email?
 
I had registered agents in 27 states (I use legal zoom). They get the notices and email me. It’s down to 9 now as states learn about email. The FAA could just have the pilots accept email notification of service. It’s been in every contract I’ve signed for years. They are going backwards.
 
jbarrass said:
I had registered agents in 27 states (I use legal zoom). They get the notices and email me. It’s down to 9 now as states learn about email. The FAA could just have the pilots accept email notification of service. It’s been in every contract I’ve signed for years. They are going backwards.
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Have you commented to explain to them how this statement is false:
International service requirements can delay service of these documents for months (and in some cases over a year) and impose burdensome costs on the agency. These service requirements cannot be circumvented by stipulation or agreement between the FAA and the individual receiving the document as that could violate a country's national sovereignty and potentially U.S. treaty obligations. (2) Similarly, the FAA cannot avoid these international service requirements by sending these documents electronically by email. (3)
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I hold an FAA private pilot certificate but live in Canada. The FAA sends me everything to my Canadian address (not that I'm receiving a lot of mail from them to begin with). So, this new change is now saying that they won't send it to me in Canada any longer but instead they'll send it to my virtual address in the U.S.? Don't see the point for them to do this, besides saving a few pennies on postage but if they prefer doing it this way, I don't really mind. Most of us Canadians have some sort of U.S. address anyways, be it with family members, friends or one of the virtual addresses so we can shop U.S. retailers that don't ship to Canada.
 
jbarrass said:
…The FAA could just have the pilots accept email notification of service. It’s been in every contract I’ve signed for years. They are going backwards.
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Treaties. They aren’t contracts.
 
Since when has the US signed any treaty without an implied "so long as it suits the wishes of the current administration" printed at the bottom? I have some ancestors that could have attested to this going back at least a couple of hundred years.

I say the above in jest, but the move to have physical addresses for everyone isn't just an international thing. It's a human tracking thing, where it isn't just enough to have a lot of data about everyone, but where the data geeks want it to be unique, provable, and without exception. The ramifications won't play out in my lifetime, but the end game isn't going to be good. That was recognized as a problem 2000+ years ago, but it's only been in the last 50 years where it's actually possible to do.

Back to the FAA, I didn't know a US citizen was required to have a permanent address. Many people spend periods of their life effectively homeless, moving from place to place because they're having a temporary hardship. Should we add to their problems by requiring them to lose their certificate, too? And add to the burden of retired folks who choose to spend a couple of years on the road traveling?

It reads to me that they have too much money, too much staff and too much time on their hands.

EDIT - I submitted a comment. By my read of their math, this is going to cost the affected pilots a total of 15-30 million dollars a year, saving the FAA, at best, 600k, to deal with a problem that affects at most 7% of the affected pilot population, and that's assuming 1 document per pilot. If the average that they have to notify has 2 docs, which I think is a reasonable assumption, they're proposing this to fix a problem that 97+% of the foreign pilots don't have. They should be using email like the rest of the world, or at least give them that option.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
We’re not. But the FAA requires a physical address or directions to a physical location in order to issue a pilot certificate.
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Absolutely true. There are a few certs or licenses that work like that. As mobile our current society is, that doesn't seem reasonable to me. But this proposal isn't about just issuance or modification, it specifically includes pilots that aren't applying new or for an upgrade.

Granted, the proposal above only addresses foreign addresses, not US. But it's still not a reasonable proposal in my view, especially because they suggest that pilot's could hire an agency that permits electronic notification. So why couldn't a pilot do that directly?
 
Albany Tom said:
Absolutely true. There are a few certs or licenses that work like that. As mobile our current society is, that doesn't seem reasonable to me. But this proposal isn't about just issuance or modification, it specifically includes pilots that aren't applying new or for an upgrade.

Granted, the proposal above only addresses foreign addresses, not US. But it's still not a reasonable proposal in my view, especially because they suggest that pilot's could hire an agency that permits electronic notification. So why couldn't a pilot do that directly?
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Probably a more accurate way for me to have stated it would be that the FAA requires a physical address in order to hold a pilot certificate.

As to electronic communication, @Chip Sylverne claims that’s not actually an issue, so… :dunno:
 
Albany Tom said:
I say the above in jest, but the move to have physical addresses for everyone isn't just an international thing. It's a human tracking thing, where it isn't just enough to have a lot of data about everyone, but where the data geeks want it to be unique, provable, and without exception. The ramifications won't play out in my lifetime, but the end game isn't going to be good. That was recognized as a problem 2000+ years ago, but it's only been in the last 50 years where it's actually possible to do.
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It’s an aside from this thread but many countries of the world have required registered addresses for every individual and national ID cards that must be kept current, for many years. This has deep ramifications in terms of controlling your ability to move freely as you say and is something to avoid, but it’s not new.

(I could tell you a story about thousands of dollars in threatened fines when a local registrars office in a southern European country that looks like a boot found out that the long term residents in a given house were not registered to that house. They dropped the fine in the end)

In this case FAA just wants an effective mailing address with proof of delivery, which is a different and less problematic thing.
 
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Tusayan said:
...snip...

In this case FAA just wants an effective mailing address with proof of delivery, which is a different and less problematic thing.
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Agree with your views on Europe, but my read of the document from the FAA is that they're looking for an agent for anyone that doesn't have a US physical address, not mailing address, so that they may serve legal notices.
 
Albany Tom said:
Since when has the US signed any treaty without an implied "so long as it suits the wishes of the current administration" printed at the bottom? I have some ancestors that could have attested to this going back at least a couple of hundred years.
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I'm not sure what you mean by this, but the issue is other countries' interpretations of treaty obligations.
 
Albany Tom said:
my read of the document from the FAA is that they're looking for an agent for anyone that doesn't have a US physical address, not mailing address, so that they may serve legal notices.
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Agreed, but I presume the need for a physical versus mailing address would be associated with obtaining proof of delivery to an agent. Whether the person themselves is ever there or has never been there is not the issue.
 
Albany Tom said:
Agree with your views on Europe, but my read of the document from the FAA is that they're looking for an agent for anyone that doesn't have a US physical address, not mailing address, so that they may serve legal notices.
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That's what it sounds like to me. Many rules require service of process and official notice to be other than by mailing a letter or sending an email. Just like many states require a ohysucal address for a drivers license.
 
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Hmm, sounds like a small business opportunity for someone to set up to be a registered agent for all these US pilot certificate holders outside the US.

Say only 10,000 pilots, for $50 per year, is a nice half million gross to handle a few pieces of mail.
 
Pinecone said:
Hmm, sounds like a small business opportunity for someone to set up to be a registered agent for all these US pilot certificate holders outside the US.

Say only 10,000 pilots, for $50 per year, is a nice half million gross to handle a few pieces of mail.
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I'm pretty sure companies that have been providing registered agent services for more than a century will be first in line.
 
Pinecone said:
Hmm, sounds like a small business opportunity for someone to set up to be a registered agent for all these US pilot certificate holders outside the US.

Say only 10,000 pilots, for $50 per year, is a nice half million gross to handle a few pieces of mail.
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There already exist small-business registered agent services the cost less than that. I'm sure they could hand service for individuals as well
 
Pinecone said:
Hmm, sounds like a small business opportunity for someone to set up to be a registered agent for all these US pilot certificate holders outside the US.

Say only 10,000 pilots, for $50 per year, is a nice half million gross to handle a few pieces of mail.
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The FAA's own estimate is 100,000 pilots, at $150-$300/year/pilot. That's a heck of a small business opportunity. $15,000,000.00 to save $600,000.00. Their numbers.
 
I can't see that there is enough work to charge that rate.

That is why I suggested one specifically for pilots, expecting little to do, at a better rate, and still make some nice coin.
 
Been this way with the FCC for a long time. Have to have a recognized mailing address within the US if you hold any FCC license.
 
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