Proposed Restrictions at San Carlos Airport (SQL)

Palmpilot

Palmpilot

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Some folks are apparently demanding restrictions on operations at San Carlos Airport, on the San Francisco Peninsula. Posted today on a local email list:

This coming Tuesday March 8th at 9:00 AM WE NEED YOU at the San Mateo County Board of Supervisors meeting where they will consider a resolution to study the implementation of curfews (no takeoffs and landings between 8PM and 6AM), landing fees, and restrictions that could include a cap on operations at a maximum of five takeoffs and landings per day per operator.

This is in response to noise complaints caused by Surf Air flying over Atherton. This is described in the Almanac News on March 3, 2016: http://almanacnews.com/news/2016/03/03/county-supervisors-to-study-san-carlos-airport-noise-problems. As that article says, "The county has asked residents with concerns about the issue to come to the meeting and share their experiences."

We need a strong showing by supporters of San Carlos Airport at the Board of Supervisors meeting. Up to now, they have only heard from the residents of Atherton. It's time that they hear from YOU, supporters of the Airport.

Most importantly, we need supporters of the Airport in the audience. At some point during the meeting, I will ask supporters of the Airport to stand up. This will show the Board of Supervisors that there is a broad base of support for the Airport in the County. Your presence will demonstrate that.

Your attendance is vital. If you oppose the implementation of curfews, landings fees and restrictions, please plan to be at the meeting. This is the beginning of a study process that could result in new restrictions on flight operations by this summer. Now is the time to show you support the Airport.

The meeting will be in the Board of Supervisors chamber, at the Hall of Justice, 400 County Center, Redwood City, 94063 at 9:00 AM next Tuesday March 8th. WE NEED YOU THERE.

Sincerely,
Carol Ford, President
San Carlos Airport Pilots Association

P.S. There will be an opportunity for public comment at the meeting next Tuesday...​

According to the linked article, the complaints center around a turboprop airline that is operating 44 flights a day at the 2600 foot strip.
 
44 flights a day? Seriously?
 
Beats me. People in Atherton are very rich, and according to the article, the airline uses the GPS instrument approach, which concentrates their inbound flights along a narrow corridor.
 
First off surf air uses PC12s, which are very quiet.

Second, I know logic is a biotch, but was there a airport there before you bought your home? If yes, start operation shut the frack up.
 
Years ago we used to fly into Naples FL (another wealthy area) in the CRJ200 and were always weight limited taking off (runway 5000' I think). Even had a special procedure where we'd reduce power at 1000' or something like that. Think they ran us out because the wealthy didn't want airlines in there, no matter how quiet they were. So they have to drive a few hours to other commercial airports. Business jets run in there all the time and the CRJ is just as, if not more, quieter than some of them. Their loss.
 
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James331 said:
First off surf air uses PC12s, which are very quiet...
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From the article:

Mr. Porter's report says residents seem to be more disturbed by the "annoyance and disturbance" of the flights than the loudness, things that are "far more difficult to measure" than the actual noise levels.​

(ROFL)
 
Hate to say it, take one for the team.

Fine, bulldoze the airport and put in section 8 housing and a methadone clinic, they'll hate living next to the "have nots" but won't dare say anything due to rich white guilt.

Might even set a precedence for the future rich whiny snobs
 
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Palmpilot said:
From the article:

Mr. Porter's report says residents seem to be more disturbed by the "annoyance and disturbance" of the flights than the loudness, things that are "far more difficult to measure" than the actual noise levels.​

(ROFL)
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What a silly argument. I live just outside of the Class D for KBJC, which is a pretty darn active GA airport. The barn where we keep our horse is only a mile and a half from the runway. We get a ton of flights over our house (and the barn) each day, and they are no louder than the cars driving by on our neighborhood street. I only notice them because I'm an aviation buff; if I wasn't they'd just blend in with the other white noise on any given day.

I know nothing of San Carlos airport, but I'd guess that it has probably been around a lot longer than the homes (as is the case with most airport complaints).
 
was there a airport there before you bought your home? If yes, start operation shut the frack up.
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Good enough reason to shut the frack up:
KSQL was apparently started during WWI yes WW ONE..... ie 100 years ago (according to Wiki) And, likely well before almost any existing homes there were built.

AOPA needs to be involved.

And I say again: We need to have a lot of these airports designated Heritage Sites or some such thing to afford them Permanent. Federal. Protections.
 
dans2992 said:
44 flights a day? Seriously?
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How did you come up with that number?

It said limit 5 per operator, put 10 different companies on the airport and that's 50, not counting private owners.
It would be tough if a flight school with 6 airplanes were limited to 5 total flights a day. And no multiple landings for student training.
 
Too bad I would not be able to make it to the meeting due to work. But I wish my wealthy neighbors from Atherton would stop whining and think a bit less about themselves. They already own the largest, most expensive real estate in the area. They are the one percent of the top one percent. And now they want to destroy a vibrant GA community at SQL. Selfish, not-in-my-backyard people.

I live under the same approach path for runway 30 but enjoy the sound of a single engine aircraft flying overhead. I always pause to look up and wish I were the one flying.:)
 
James331 said:
Hate to say it, take one for the team.

Fine, bulldoze the airport and put in section 8 housing and a methadone clinic, they'll hate living next to the "have nots" but won't dare say anything due to rich white guilt.

Might even set a precedence for the future rich whiny snobs
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Might want to peek at a map and see just where Atherton is in relation to San Carlos. Won't work.

There are two large communities of poor people in between already. These are not airport neighbors, and they are complaining about the approach.
 
Wow. Atherton looks to be a few miles away. Traffic pattern doesn't even come close to Atherton. I guess the only thing going over that city would be departures and arrivals. Hope you get a good turnout.
 
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BillTIZ said:
How did you come up with that number?
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According to the link in first post, 44 (22 inbound and 22 outbound) is the current number of scheduled operations per day of one operator, Surf Air, which is apparently the subject of the complaints.
 
mscard88 said:
Years ago we used to fly into Naples FL (another wealthy area) in the CRJ200 and were always weight limited taking off (runway 5000' I think). Even had a special procedure where we'd reduce power at 1000' or something like that. Think they ran us out because the wealthy didn't want airlines in there, no matter how quiet they were. So they have to drive a few hours to other commercial airports. Business jets run in there all the time and the CRJ is just as, if not more, quieter than some of them. Their loss.
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There are still noise issues at Naples, even for GA aircraft arriving and departing is frowned upon after 10pm
 
MAKG1 said:
Might want to peek at a map and see just where Atherton is in relation to San Carlos. Won't work.

There are two large communities of poor people in between already. These are not airport neighbors, and they are complaining about the approach.
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I live in Menlo Park, right next to Atherton, and my Menlo Park neighbors also complain about the approach to SQL. They also complain about the left Dumbarton departure from Runway 31 at PAO as well as the jet traffic approach to SFO 28L/R. Most of them are stay-home spouses of very wealthy folks. They want traffic to fly over East Menlo and East Palo Alto whose poorer residents don't seem to complain even though things are even louder there probably because they are busy trying to earn a living.
 
In that case maybe put a slaughter house or septic plant there
 
Excellent idea! Maybe add a minimum security prison to replace the terminal, and scatter the sewage treatment tanks along where the runways used to be?
 
dans2992 said:
44 flights a day? Seriously?
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Seems like a bit of an exaggeration. I just looked at flight aware and SurfAir had 8 arrivals and 5 departures today. I suppose if they count both arrivals and departures separately they might be getting close, as there were close to 20 arrivals friday. Even so, that's just a small portion of the total number of flights. I live directly under the approach path for one of SurfAirs other hubs, and their planes are far quieter than most of the ones that pass by. This is just another case of entitled NIMBYs forgetting who came first.
 
I'm fairly certain Atherton has been around for quite some time. I can remember my mom talking about being a nanny for a family who lived there. That would have been in the late 1930s.
 
Well Since SQL has been there since WW1 it's not exactly a newcomer to the area either.
 
MAKG1 said:
Many of the towns around there date back to the Gold Rush, a few much older. Losing argument.
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Atherton was incorporated in 1923. I'm no history expert, but I'm pretty sure 1923 came after WWI. And they certainly didn't have an issue with it being a train stop prior to that, and trains are way noisier than small airplanes overhead.

Here's the big thing though:

Wikipedia said:
In September 2010, Forbes magazine placed Atherton's ZIP code of 94027 at #2 on its annual list of America's most expensive zip codes. In October 2013, 94027 moved to #1 on the list, where it remained for 2014 and 2015.
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It isn't as if they just built a new subdivision next to the airport, though. How much air traffic was the in 1923?
 
EdFred said:
Atherton was incorporated in 1923. I'm no history expert, but I'm pretty sure 1923 came after WWI. And they certainly didn't have an issue with it being a train stop prior to that, and trains are way noisier than small airplanes overhead.

Here's the big thing though:
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Incorporation in California is not equivalent to formation. It means they wrote a city charter, nothing more. Many towns exist for decades or even longer without that, and the majority of towns are not incorporated today. I live in a 160 year old unincorporated town, and I think the locals might be a bit upset with you if you told them we don't exist.
 
MAKG1 said:
Incorporation in California is not equivalent to formation. It means they wrote a city charter, nothing more. Many towns exist for decades or even longer without that, and the majority of towns are not incorporated today. I live in a 160 year old unincorporated town, and I think the locals might be a bit upset with you if you told them we don't exist.
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Then the question is, did the airport exist before any of those people moved into those houses?
 
EdFred said:
Then the question is, did the airport exist before any of those people moved into those houses?
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That's not really the question, since the airport when it was first built, probably had minimal traffic. How long has Surf Air been flying out of there?

Not saying whether or not the people should be complaining, but this is not the case of a new subdivision being built next to an existing airport.
 
Everskyward said:
That's not really the question, since the airport when it was first built, probably had minimal traffic. How long has Surf Air been flying out of there?

Not saying whether or not the people should be complaining, but this is not the case of a new subdivision being built next to an existing airport.
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Disagree. An airport is an airport. Traffic may go up, traffic may go down. Airport may get expanded, airport may get closed. You always buy expecting the worst case scenario. Don't want to take the chance? Don't buy property near an airport.

But it is the case that these people moved into the houses after the airport existed. Whether the houses were there before the airport or not is irrelevant at this point, the only relevant point is did the people that are now complaining move into these houses before or after the airport was built. I doubt the people complaining are a hundred years old, because if they were they couldn't hear the planes anyway.
 
EdFred said:
Disagree. An airport is an airport. Traffic may go up, traffic may go down. Airport may get expanded, airport may get closed. You always buy expecting the worst case scenario. Don't want to take the chance? Don't buy property near an airport.
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We can agree to disagree then. In my opinion it isn't as black and white as that.
 
EdFred said:
Then people like you are the problem. :p
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Maybe. I wouldn't complain about an airport but I might complain about a country road that got enlarged into a freeway. Not saying the analogy applies to San Carlos, but according to your theory people shouldn't be complaining about that situation either.

Not that complaining would do any good.
 
Atherton is an enclave of entitled people who live in a cloud of delusion that the entire world consists of their rarified air filled with ultra-exotic cars, 10,000 square foot mansions for two people and utter serenity and silence smack dab in the center of one of the most crowded metropolises in the country.

Totally unrealistic that they will have the quiet they demand. Plus, not a one of them has lived there since before SQL was a busy field. The irony is that the efforts and production of the Atherton residents are in no small part what spurred the Bay Area's business economy to need services like Surf Air.
 
ateamer said:
Atherton is an enclave of entitled people who live in a cloud of delusion that the entire world consists of their rarified air filled with ultra-exotic cars, 10,000 square foot mansions for two people and utter serenity and silence smack dab in the center of one of the most crowded metropolises in the country.

Totally unrealistic that they will have the quiet they demand. Plus, not a one of them has lived there since before SQL was a busy field. The irony is that the efforts and production of the Atherton residents are in no small part what spurred the Bay Area's business economy to need services like Surf Air.
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I think of Atherton as "old money" but perhaps it has changed with the tech boom.
 
Is three or four miles away "next to" the airport? I'm not sure, but the problem is said to be the proximity to the final approach course.
 
It amazes me the number of people who will comment on this without understanding the issue. Let me be clear -- unless you study the issue, YOU ARE NOISE. I'll be frank. Shut up, or you'll make it worse. You will make all the legitimate arguments look like uninformed outsiders'.

This is not a complaint about airport noise. It is not a complaint about longstanding operations. It is a complaint about overflights by one NEW SCHEDULED AIR CARRIER who has been at it only a few years. It's going to the airport specifically because no one in the area is listening. Atherton has been complaining about Surf Air since they started, and they have gotten no traction whatsoever.

Leave the noise out. It does damage, in the sense that it makes the opposition appear totally uninformed, and will give the complainants plenty of ammunition with a claim that pilots can't be trusted to police themselves because they simply don't have a clue. If you must speak up, study the issues first and respond to the actual issues, not your prejudices.

If you want to make a difference, perhaps a measurement of overflight noise compared to ambient at a few key locations -- CalTrain tracks, El Camino, I-280, Alameda de las Pulgas, etc -- might make a more coherent argument. Responding to the wrong problem is a truly stupid thing to do.
 
Do they ***** and moan about cars and rails too? Do they ***** about the Stanford band on fall Saturdays? If not they can STFU. 4sm miles away at 3 degree approach is still over 1000 AGL, and unless they are limited on climbout they are never going to be at 1000' on the departure which is louder. Hell 4 miles away in my Comanche I'm not even a trigger on a sound meter and PC12s climb a whole lot faster than I do.

Sounds like it's just a bunch of people who need something to complain about.
 
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EdFred said:
Do they ***** and moan about cars and rails too? Do they ***** about the Stanford band on fall Saturdays? If not they can STFU. 4sm miles away at 3 degree approach is still over 1000 AGL, and unless they are limited on climbout they are never going to be at 1000' on the departure which is louder. Hell 4 miles away in my Comanche I'm not even a trigger on a sound meter and PC12s climb a whole lot faster than I do.

Sounds like it's just a bunch of people who need something to complain about.
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Actually, yes, they do complain about just about everything. Which is why no one listens to them.

The issue is not departures. It's the instrument approach.
 
MAKG1 said:
Actually, yes, they do complain about just about everything. Which is why no one listens to them.

The issue is not departures. It's the instrument approach.
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And no one should listen to them.

CUZUP is 2000' whether the Z or Y approach. That's 7sm miles from the airport. 4sm from the airport (over Atherton, on the 3.05 degree approach path listed on the Z approach still has them above 1000' feet AGL. (844' drop over 3sm). They should just be run over by Target and Costco shoppers.
 
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