Prop log required?

Is a propeller-driven airplane legally airworthy without a separate prop log.

  • Yes -- unairworthy without it

    Votes: 11 20.8%

  • No -- OK if you can find the info elsewhere

    Votes: 39 73.6%

  • I'd have to ask Marty/Tom/the FSDO

    Votes: 3 5.7%
  • Total voters
    53
  • Poll closed .
P

poadeleted20

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I'm looking for the knowledge of pilots, not mechanics, and please answer without looking in the book -- just what you think is the FAA answer off the top of your head.
 
What I think is, no a separate log is not required

That being said I just got one as I had a second prop entry for my fixed pitch prop Warrior. Besides the yellow tag that was in the airframe log book inside cover I had the prop balanced this last annual and decided to have a prop log.

Now I am off to look it up.
 
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I'd have to ask but it sure makes sense to keep a record of filing out nicks, hours flown, etc.
 
What I found
(1) Section 91.417(a)(2)(i). Requires a record of total time-in-service to be kept for the
airframe, each engine, and each propeller. Part 1, section 1.1, Definitions, defines time in
service, with respect to maintenance time records, as that time from the moment an aircraft
leaves the surface of the earth until it touches down at the next point of landing. Section 43.9
does not require this to be part of the entries for maintenance, preventive maintenance,
rebuilding, or alterations. However, section 43.11 requires maintenance personnel to make it a
part of the entries for inspections made under parts 9 1, 125, and time-in-service in all entries.
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This says a record but AC43-9C does not mandate that a separate book be kept. Just a record that has the information. I guess the maintenance record could be a loose leaf note book
 

Attachments

  • AC43-9C.pdf
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Finding "the info" means what? What info? If the plane is factory new, what info is there besides a part number?
 
My impression was always that the info needs to be logged, but there's no specification as to where its logged.

That's what I thought.
 
Since I've had a separate prop log on each plane I've owned, there must be a reason <g>. Even if not required, it would certainly be advisable.

Best,

Dave
 
I did find a reference to "Class 1 Appliance" on the AYA site ;) but Google fails to return any supporting data. I was theorizing that if something has a Type Certificate, it must have a logbook. The AYA article says yes, but provides no backup.
 
BTW, by "prop log," I mean the term as the FAA uses it -- a separate maintenance record for the individual item as opposed to putting the information in the maintenance record for the airframe or engine.
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, by "prop log," I mean the term as the FAA uses it -- a separate maintenance record for the individual item as opposed to putting the information in the maintenance record for the airframe or engine.
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My Baron has separate logs for each prop but the Porterfield tracks prop maint in the engine logbook. My vote is that the maintenance can be logged but where you put it is up to the owner. That said, I see an issue if you sell the prop or trade it in while keeping your engine (or vice versa) and the logs are combined.
 
All the airplanes I've seen operated for hire (rentals) have had separate airplane, engine, and prop logs. But several private airplanes I've flown had an airframe, and an engine log, with the prop maintenance recorded in the engine log.

I think I've seen a correlation though - the newer airplanes (or airplanes with new props) all have a separate prop log.
 
Prior to the installation of a three bladed McCauley prop all related prop items were recorded in the airframe log. The new McCauley prop came with a prop log book. All prop items including a recent prop overhaul are now recorded in the prop log. So the question was, is a prop log required? I would say no.
Ron
 
The DPE wanted to see it for the plane I took my PP check ride in. Only had the airframe and engine logs the first day when we did the oral (weathered out for flying), so I brought it the second time around. CFI hadn't run into that one before.
 
When I went for my CFI ride the examiner couldn't find and entry for the most recent annual in my prop log. He took the logs to the FSDO "expert" who found the wording in the airframe logbook (or maybe it was the engine log, I can't remember) to be sufficient. I can't remember now the exact wording that satisfied the FSDO, but I was very happy it did.

Based on that experience, no, I don't believe a separate log book for the prop is required.
 
gibbons said:
When I went for my CFI ride the examiner couldn't find and entry for the most recent annual in my prop log. He took the logs to the FSDO "expert" who found the wording in the airframe logbook (or maybe it was the engine log, I can't remember) to be sufficient. I can't remember now the exact wording that satisfied the FSDO, but I was very happy it did.

Based on that experience, no, I don't believe a separate log book for the prop is required.
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91.401 thru 91.421 are the regulations governing the maintenance , and record keeping required by the owner.

91.417 READS

91.417 Maintenance records.
(a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§91.411 and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b) of this section:

(1) Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alteration and records of the 100-hour, annual, progressive, and other required or approved inspections, as appropriate, for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. The records must include—

when read in context it is says the AIRCRAFT contains all the systems as one unit, thus the annual sign off and return to service must be in the aircraft maintenance records.

I also believe the rule answers the question Ron brought up.
 
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That word "appliance" keeps appearing. 14CFR part 1 says:
Appliance means any instrument, mechanism, equipment, part, apparatus, appurtenance, or accessory, including communications equipment, that is used or intended to be used in operating or controlling an aircraft in flight, is installed in or attached to the aircraft, and is not part of an airframe, engine, or propeller.
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Lemme see your airspeed indicator logbook, please. :D
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, by "prop log," I mean the term as the FAA uses it -- a separate maintenance record for the individual item as opposed to putting the information in the maintenance record for the airframe or engine.
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I don't think the FAA mandates any form of log book, I can't recall anywhere in the FARs, AIM, or A/Cs where they specify exactly what format the records must be kept in. Most of what we do in the way of storing the records is by convention. It can all be done in a three ring binder if you please. It's mostly about keeping records in a known format so people can find things in them.
 
I think some operators use a computerized maintenance system where they just log what they did to what assembly, and then the system lets them print out a complete log, or the entries pertaining to the airframe, avionics, a powerplant, or a particular assembly. This leads me to believe that physically separate records aren't required.
 
"Class I Product" shows up as an Underwriters Laboratories classification for surface burning characteristics of building materials, and as a classification for lasers. In Canada, "Avgas is considered a Class 1 petrol product." I still find nothing in the FAA (online) that uses this term. Also in FAA form 8130-1 Application for Export Certificate of Airworthiness, and has a blank for Aircraft, Engine, or Propeller.

Come on, Ron, the suspense is killing me!
 
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My hunch is that Ron encountered someone at "Kinder & Gentler" who just came down from Mt. Sinai with a new interpretation of the reg on stone tablets.

Wait for it ...
 
NC19143 said:
I also believe the rule answers the question Ron brought up.
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I don't believe so at all.

Ron asked is a SEPARATE book required.

I posted that the records must be kept, but nothing I have found say how those records need to be kept. It would appear that a grouping of cocktail napkins could be used as long as you can find the information that is required to be in the record.

While I would not recommend using cocktail napkins, it is conceivable that a single book could be kept that has all of those records in it. That might make it hard if you swap out some of the components but it would still be legal.
 
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Call it "separate records," i.e., not intermingled with the airframe and engine records to the extent that they cannot be physically separated and sent on with the prop if the propeller is separated from the rest of the aircraft.
 
Ron Levy said:
Call it "separate records," i.e., not intermingled with the airframe and engine records to the extent that they cannot be physically separated and sent on with the prop if the propeller is separated from the rest of the aircraft.
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I fully understand the desire to keep records that way, but if someone parts out an aircraft, would they have to provide a separate logbook for each part sold? I'm hoping the "class I product" part helps us understand, as soon as we see a source that writes it in stone.
 
JohnR said:
I fully understand the desire to keep records that way, but if someone parts out an aircraft, would they have to provide a separate logbook for each part sold?
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For many parts, yes -- or at least an 8130-3 tag. I know an owner whose Tiger sat for 18 months because there was no record of the flight time on the life-limited replacement wing that was installed. When I got the Tiger spar for the Tigerization of my Cheetah airframe, the accompanying tag certifying its source and flight time was a go/no-go item.
 
smigaldi said:
I don't believe so at all.

Ron asked is a SEPARATE book required.

I posted that the records must be kept, but nothing I have found say how those records need to be kept. It would appear that a grouping of cocktail napkins could be used as long as you can find the information that is required to be in the record.

While I would not recommend using cocktail napkins, it is conceivable that a single book could be kept that has all of those records in it. That might make it hard if you swap out some of the components but it would still be legal.
Click to expand...

To start with, the term "log book" is not used by the FAA in any regulation or FAR, the proper term is "Maintenance Record" The FAA does not give us any diection as to what form that Maintenance Record must take, But a book is a very convenient method to use and what we most likely see with GA aircraft.

FAR 91.417 para (a) 1 is very clear what must have a record.

(1) Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alteration and records of the 100-hour, annual, progressive, and other required or approved inspections, as appropriate, for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft.

The form or method use to record is not important, it could be electronic, a paper record.

FAR 43.9 also mentions the 4 biggies

(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.

(2) The date of completion of the work performed.

(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.

(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed.

The way it was explaned to us at the IA seminar by the FAA lead mechanic was this.

If the equipment has a type certificate, or if the equipment has an inspection required by regulation, or it has a time life, it must have its own Maintenance records.

think about the item that gets more pilots in trouble than any other piece of equipment, the VOR nav equipment that is flown IFR must have an logged accuracy check every 30 days. You can log it in the aircraft log but it would fill the pages pretty quickly, so most owners will have an Avionics log.
(that would classify as an appliance log)

If you were a prop repair station and you over hauled a prop and had no record for it, how would you comply with FAR 43.9? simple, you'd make a record of the repair with all the info that identifies the prop and what you did. and call it the log book for the prop.
 
Ron Levy said:
For many parts, yes -- or at least an 8130-3 tag. I know an owner whose Tiger sat for 18 months because there was no record of the flight time on the life-limited replacement wing that was installed. When I got the Tiger spar for the Tigerization of my Cheetah airframe, the accompanying tag certifying its source and flight time was a go/no-go item.
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Your Spar is an integeral part of the airframe, and time lifed in the TCDS.
Removal and replacement is recorded in the airframe log. the 8130-3 tag has nothing to do maintenance history, other than prove the time accrued. it has no maintenance history such as repairs.

8130-3 tags are a tool used in return to service entries. that's all, they have nothing to do with log books.
 
Re: Prop log required? - test

Is there a problem with the board? I made a reply to this thread yesterday
and it never posted.
 
I'm really posting because I found the Poll to be worded funny and it wouldn't let me vote. Too new, I guess. The question is worded in the positive ("Is it airworthy") but the answers are in the negative ("Yes. unairworthy without it").

As long as I'm here...

I see a lot of discussion about what is convenient and what makes sense. My interpretation - No separate prop log is required. Emphasis on "separate" and "required."

Stuff has to be logged somewhere - no doubt. That doesn't mean it has to be separate.

Having it separate makes it easier - no doubt. That doesn't mean it is required.

Someone mentioned logging VOR checks in the aircraft log versus a separate avionics log. Either will do. Neither is necessary. Completely different from engine, airframe and prop logging.

Paper napkins will do for VOR currency. As soon as you have a new entry, the old one is of no interest to anyone. Similar to passenger currency. The regs say in order to carry passengers you must have..." There is no requirement for keeping these logs for any length of time. That means, they are only useful during that time when a ramp check is possible.

There is nothing in the regs for currency (including VOR currency) that would enable the FAA to say - you know that flight you took 3 weeks ago with passengers in IFR? Show me the log entries for currency and your VOR checks."

Flame on. Oh wait. You don't do that here, do you? Nice board!

Travis
usenet refugee
 
Finally got my answers from the Feds.

First, from the FSDO -- a prop log is required, period.

Second, from the FAA's Engine and Propeller directorate:
The answer to your question about separate propeller logbooks can be found in AC 43-9C Maintenance Records 6/8/98.

That AC states: "Section 91.417(a)(l). Requires a record of maintenance, for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. This does not require separate or individual records for each of these items. It does require the information specified in sections 91.417(a)( 1) through 91.417(a)(2)(vi) to be kept for each item as appropriate. As a practical matter, many owners and operators find it advantageous to keep separate or individual records since it facilitates transfer of the record with the item when ownership changes.
Section 91.417(a)( 1) has no counterpart in section 43.9 or section 43.11."

Although a separate propeller logbook is not required we encourage owners to maintain a separate logbook for the propeller. A propeller logbook is an appropriate document for recording total time in service and time since overhaul as well as details of maintenance, inspections and damage. In some cases, lack of records may require premature maintenance activity, overhaul, or possible propeller retirement since most ADs presume if the time in service and time since overhaul is not known, the propeller requires compliance with the most restrictive level called out in the AD.
In addition if the propeller is sold or exchanged the logbook is transferred with the propeller to assure that the information is maintained. Propeller logbooks are available from various sources, including the propeller manufacturer.
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So, if your local Airworthiness Inspector shows up, you may get hassled if you don't have a separate log, but ANE-110 says it's OK as long as you have all the records, even if they're intermingled with the airframe and engine.

Me? I'll spend the $2 for a prop log.
 
Curiously, did the FSDO cite any source when giving their answer?

I'm not surprised you got a different answer from the FSDO. I got three different answers from Atlanta for resolving my 709 issue back in 2005 as a result of action in 1986. It turns out the only one that counted was that issued by regional counsel in Chicago.

I agree with the separate logs. It makes more sense for sake of keeping paperwork separate in the event of the plane and its components going their separate ways.
 
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