Progressive Worth It?

[ARFlyer]

Our 172N had had several large ticket items break over the last few months. We have thoughts that a lot of the issues have been caused by the previous shop. The last straw was a mag eating itself the other night on me at low altitude. It had 2700 hours on it with no 500 hour overhaul.

The other partners and I want the maintenance tightened up. My thought is to throw it into Progressive Maintenance. The Service Manual recommends Progressive for airframes with more then 200 hours of use a year. We were averaging between 150 to 200 hours with an expected 300-400 hours in the next year. I’ve consulted with our new mechanic and another one recommended by some buddies. Both highly approve of the idea. They said it will be more $$$$ up front but that we will save money in the long run. They also recommended completing some of the SIDs as the airframe is getting up in age.

I understand that it’s FAA Approved and a Custom Program for our aircraft has to be written.

What do y’all say?

 

[bnt83]

Our 172N had had several large ticket items break over the last few months. We have thoughts that a lot of the issues have been caused by the previous shop. The last straw was a mag eating itself the other night on me at low altitude. It had 2700 hours on it with no 500 hour overhaul.

The other partners and I want the maintenance tightened up. My thought is to throw it into Progressive Maintenance. The Service Manual recommends Progressive for airframes with more then 200 hours of use a year. We were averaging between 150 to 200 hours with an expected 300-400 hours in the next year. I’ve consulted with our new mechanic and another one recommended by some buddies. Both highly approve of the idea. They said it will be more $$$$ up front but that we will save money in the long run. They also recommended completing some of the SIDs as the airframe is getting up in age.

I understand that it’s FAA Approved and a Custom Program for our aircraft has to be written.

What do y’all say?

What for? Get an excel spreadsheet out and sit down with the logbooks and find these things and track them, before something craps the bed. You are making this a lot more difficult than needs to be.

If you can't find when the last time ___________ was inspected/overhauled, take it off and send it in. Then update the spreadsheet when its back on and tested,

 

[bnt83]

Tracking --

Magnetos, any dry vacuum pump, alternator/generator, vacuum regulator filter, instrument filters, spark plugs, spark plug harness, engine fuel & oil hoses, oil coolers, alternator belt, any standby batteries, propeller, carburetor, prop governor, fuel pump, Garmin GPS navigator internal battery, ELT battery, ELT remote battery, ELT buzzer battery, main ship batteries, plastic vacuum pump drive couplings, tires and tubes if you want, the number of thigs you can track are endless, no FAA involvement is needed just some common sense. If you're MX provider log entries are so bland this info isn't documented then find a different MX provider.

 

[Tom-D]

Do the maintenance...... forget the paper work.
There is nothing saying you can't set the times any way you like.
If you like to change parts at a set time, do it.

 

[Bell206]

What do y’all say?

The downside is having to schedule around the increased mx downtime. As to whether cheaper in the long run... depends on a number of things. In my experience, didn't see much difference in costs if aircraft was preflighted/postflighted properly and all discrepancies repaired in between annuals instead of wait till annuals.

 

[Tom-D]

I understand that it’s FAA Approved and a Custom Program for our aircraft has to be written.

What do y’all say?

This is correct, the FAA does approve the program.

 

[bnt83]

I've got a dropbox file where keep it all and I can tell you status of anything, all I need is the current tach time to calculate time in service of the tracked items.

 

[Tom-D]

This is like the new owner and their first annual. Get Avlog.com, do the ADs and start from there.

 

[ARFlyer]

What for? Get an excel spreadsheet out and sit down with the logbooks and find these things and track them, before something craps the bed. You are making this a lot more difficult than needs to be.

If you can't find when the last time ___________ was inspected/overhauled, take it off and send it in. Then update the spreadsheet when its back on and tested,

Tracking --

Magnetos, any dry vacuum pump, alternator/generator, vacuum regulator filter, instrument filters, spark plugs, spark plug harness, engine fuel & oil hoses, oil coolers, alternator belt, any standby batteries, Garmin GPS navigator internal battery, ELT battery, ELT remote battery, ELT buzzer battery, main ship batteries, plastic vacuum pump drive couplings, tires and tubes if you want, the number of thigs you can track are endless, no FAA involvement is needed just some common sense. If you're MX provider log entries are so bland this info isn't documented then find a different MX provider.

Do the maintenance...... forget the paper work.
There is nothing saying you can't set the times any way you like.
If you like to change parts at a set time, do it.

Historically the logbooks are very bland with information. I can’t even tell you if the Backup Battery in our Aspen has been replaced. Much less the Vacuum Pump filters. The annuals are all the exact same wording. Heck out last one was done by trainee A&P as a 100 hour then signed off by a IA in another entry that just said “100 hour was done as an annual”.

I’v changed shops since then. The new mechanic who was highly recommended found no go items as soon as he took the cowl off. As an example the cabin air intake hose and exhaust shroud were removed and zip tied to the bottom of the engine.

 

[mondtster]

Remember who’s responsibility it is to track maintenance and be in control of when things are done. Based on the initial post in this thread it sounds like the mechanic is being blamed for things that the owner should be taking charge of. A progressive inspection will not change that sort of thing.

 

[Tom-D]

This says it all.
91.403 General.
(a) The owner or operator of an aircraft is primarily responsible for maintaining that aircraft in an airworthy condition, including compliance with part 39 of this chapter.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Just keep the maintenance program you have and work up the items you feel need attention. Keep inspection and maintenance separate. It will take a while, but work out all of the lax maintenance of the previous owners.

Strive for perfection.

 

[NordicDave]

Do the maintenance...... forget the paper work.
There is nothing saying you can't set the times any way you like.
If you like to change parts at a set time, do it.

Just keep the maintenance program you have and work up the items you feel need attention. Keep inspection and maintenance separate. It will take a while, but work out all of the lax maintenance of the previous owners.

Strive for perfection.

Flying close to 200 hours a year means 2 50 hour inspections, a 100 hour inspection, and an annual inspection. Should provide enough opportunity to find and fix what needs attention if following the check list in the factory service manual, plus known squawks.

 

[bnt83]

If no one is actually documenting anything useful there is no way to tell what the status of anything is.

Find a guy that logs stuff like this

 

[Grum.Man]

This is the price you pay when you don’t do your homework on an airplane. Due to the skyrocketing prices a lot of rejects are getting dusted off and pencil whipped annuals to get them for sale. People are grabbing them up like fresh brownies. Have a through AD search and compliance done, go through all the components that require servicing and catch them up. After that the POH gives guidance on maintenance intervals.

 

[Tom-D]

Flying close to 200 hours a year means 2 50 hour inspections, a 100 hour inspection, and an annual inspection. Should provide enough opportunity to find and fix what needs attention if following the check list in the factory service manual, plus known squawks.

Exactly !

 

[Sinistar]

@ARFlyer: Maybe relevant to your case....

TLDR: Have a mid to large size flight school mx shop do the mx on your plane.

Longer Version:

Our first mechanic retired. We really liked him. I felt like he wanted us to have the right mix between a safe plane and not digging into things that can easily wait. Maybe he was spacing things out a bit...who knows.

Info: We fly a 182P.

For the next shop I thought what the heck. There's a pretty reputable shop for the nearby flight school and all they do is 172, 150, Archers...but mostly a Cessna single's shop. I gave him a call. The first call was about a possible prop issue. They assisted on that, didn't immediately jump to a engine oil pump (rebuild), prop overhaul, etc. I thought he played it pretty calm. Eventually I figured it out (another thread). So when it came time for the annual I said what the heck.

Well he found about $2800 of items beyond the base fee. Okay...what is this all about?

For the questionable prop issue he had me start a online account. So for the annual I just logged in. I could see the full squawk list. Several items were "recommended". IIRC there were like 22 items. I immediately approved 19 of them. Had questions on 3 and approved 1 more. Since they have several mechanics he was able to work them all from a wed morning to a Friday afternoon. The two big ones were that the fuel control valve would leak in the off position! Neither my wife or I had ever turned it to the OFF position. That would have sucked in a emergency when trying to stop all fuel flow. And a forward motor mount had went - sorta disintegrated so replaced both front mounts. Some of the items that were recommended were cable tensions, a pulley that was mostly working but would stick just a bit, etc. I remember the first time my wife flew it she was like the controls are "awesome". I really had no point of reference since I learned in it the way it was. He showed me every part replaced, etc - just like the previous A&P did. The cable tension tweaks also helped with the pilot wing heavy issue (now almost perfect)

Where I am going with this is maybe there is a good flight school mx shop that you could bring your plane to. I wouldn't enter it into any type of FAA program. Just have them do the work and track all the stuff for you....IF they have a decent software system AND they are big enough to handle it quickly. Or maybe they can apply their program to your plane?

Or this a terrible idea

I do know this...our first A&P wrestled with the front strut and we always it always leak out during the winter. This new shop that does that same strut x 10 planes x N student pilots treated it like a student plane. Whatever he did it hasn't leaked this winter! These young guys really seem to run a professional shop. And they document almost exactly like bnt83's example above. That level of documentation can come in very handy if you have any deviations or other issues that bring you to the FSDO. Yes, the owner is always ultimately responsible. But I can tell this new shop has to be on their game pretty darned good given its a decent size fleet of flight school planes. Since you have several flying your plane you might want to be sure you have that same level.

Bonus: For the base annual fee - they scrubbed the belly cleaner than I ever could That was worth about $100 to me right there!

 

[ARFlyer]

Flying close to 200 hours a year means 2 50 hour inspections, a 100 hour inspection, and an annual inspection. Should provide enough opportunity to find and fix what needs attention if following the check list in the factory service manual, plus known squawks.

That was the other path. I was just seeing if Progressive made more sense as I noticed according to the flow chart the service manual recommended it.

If no one is actually documenting anything useful there is no way to tell what the status of anything is.

Find a guy that logs stuff like this

View attachment 93092

Yeah I would love that type of entry! Ours have just been the generic one block of text Annuals that tell you nothing.

 

[denverpilot]

This is like the new owner and their first annual. Get Avlog.com, do the ADs and start from there.

They might want to get adlog.com since the other thing doesn’t exist.

 

[ARFlyer]

@ARFlyer: Maybe relevant to your case....

TLDR: Have a mid to large size flight school mx shop do the mx on your plane.

Longer Version:

Our first mechanic retired. We really liked him. I felt like he wanted us to have the right mix between a safe plane and not digging into things that can easily wait. Maybe he was spacing things out a bit...who knows.

Info: We fly a 182P.

For the next shop I thought what the heck. There's a pretty reputable shop for the nearby flight school and all they do is 172, 150, Archers...but mostly a Cessna single's shop. I gave him a call. The first call was about a possible prop issue. They assisted on that, didn't immediately jump to a engine oil pump (rebuild), prop overhaul, etc. I thought he played it pretty calm. Eventually I figured it out (another thread). So when it came time for the annual I said what the heck.

Well he found about $2800 of items beyond the base fee. Okay...what is this all about?

For the questionable prop issue he had me start a online account. So for the annual I just logged in. I could see the full squawk list. Several items were "recommended". IIRC there were like 22 items. I immediately approved 19 of them. Had questions on 3 and approved 1 more. Since they have several mechanics he was able to work them all from a wed morning to a Friday afternoon. The two big ones were that the fuel control valve would leak in the off position! Neither my wife or I had ever turned it to the OFF position. That would have sucked in a emergency when trying to stop all fuel flow. And a forward motor mount had went - sorta disintegrated so replaced both front mounts. Some of the items that were recommended were cable tensions, a pulley that was mostly working but would stick just a bit, etc. I remember the first time my wife flew it she was like the controls are "awesome". I really had no point of reference since I learned in it the way it was. He showed me every part replaced, etc - just like the previous A&P did. The cable tension tweaks also helped with the pilot wing heavy issue (now almost perfect)

Where I am going with this is maybe there is a good flight school mx shop that you could bring your plane to. I wouldn't enter it into any type of FAA program. Just have them do the work and track all the stuff for you....IF they have a decent software system AND they are big enough to handle it quickly. Or maybe they can apply their program to your plane?

Or this a terrible idea

I do know this...our first A&P wrestled with the front strut and we always it always leak out during the winter. This new shop that does that same strut x 10 planes x N student pilots treated it like a student plane. Whatever he did it hasn't leaked this winter! These young guys really seem to run a professional shop. And they document almost exactly like bnt83's example above. That level of documentation can come in very handy if you have any deviations or other issues that bring you to the FSDO. Yes, the owner is always ultimately responsible. But I can tell this new shop has to be on their game pretty darned good given its a decent size fleet of flight school planes. Since you have several flying your plane you might want to be sure you have that same level.

Bonus: For the base annual fee - they scrubbed the belly cleaner than I ever could That was worth about $100 to me right there!

One of the local flight schools has a Large MX facility that does everything in Progressive. The flight school is attached to a large FBO, 135 and Jet shop. They’re actually the largest Cessna piston and jet MX provider in the area the other is up in the NW part of the state.

 

[Dan Thomas]

I used Excel to track every timed item on every flight school airplane we had. These were inspected and replaced at the recommended times as per OEM, with some mods to that where justified.

One has to remember that a busted vac pump or failed mag isn't just a replacement cost. It's cancelled bookings, lost revenue and ticked-off students or renters. It's a loss of reputation if it happens often enough. It's false economy to run components to failure, and it raises the risk of accidents and insurance premium increases.

 

[ARFlyer]

I used Excel to track every timed item on every flight school airplane we had. These were inspected and replaced at the recommended times as per OEM, with some mods to that where justified.

One has to remember that a busted vac pump or failed mag isn't just a replacement cost. It's cancelled bookings, lost revenue and ticked-off students or renters. It's a loss of reputation if it happens often enough. It's false economy to run components to failure, and it raises the risk of accidents and insurance premium increases.

I purchased a Planelogix account a few weeks ago and have been slowly adding everything to it. The software is extremely nice and the owners are great at responding to issues. I hope to have all the major items in the tracking section in another few weeks or so.

 

[Clip4]

What you need is a spread sheet with scheduled maintenance times for various components. Mags, vac pump, batteries, filters, brakes, ect.

 

[Dan Thomas]

What you need is a spread sheet with scheduled maintenance times for various components. Mags, vac pump, batteries, filters, brakes, ect.

ADs, SBs, SIDs too. Lots of stuff. My Excel listed the airplanes across the top and the tasks down the columns. Four pages long when printed out.

 

[bnt83]

Our 172N had had several large ticket items break over the last few months. We have thoughts that a lot of the issues have been caused by the previous shop. The last straw was a mag eating itself the other night on me at low altitude. It had 2700 hours on it with no 500 hour overhaul.

The other partners and I want the maintenance tightened up. My thought is to throw it into Progressive Maintenance. The Service Manual recommends Progressive for airframes with more then 200 hours of use a year. We were averaging between 150 to 200 hours with an expected 300-400 hours in the next year. I’ve consulted with our new mechanic and another one recommended by some buddies. Both highly approve of the idea. They said it will be more $$$$ up front but that we will save money in the long run. They also recommended completing some of the SIDs as the airframe is getting up in age.

I understand that it’s FAA Approved and a Custom Program for our aircraft has to be written.

What do y’all say?

Just a few things I'd consider