Professional Pilot (Opinions of a non-pilot)

LJS1993

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LJ Savala
Guys I have to say that I am truly disappointed about the lack of pay professional pilots are receiving. Throughout my time on this message board I have seen figures ranging from $45,000 dollars a year to as little as $18,000 which I find truly pathetic. I've heard the terms "glorified bus driver" being thrown around and that truly disturbs me. In my mind being a pro-pilot should be seen as a truly vital service whether it be cargo or humans being transported. In my mind the skill set necessary to professionally transport cargo and people in all weather conditions is something that truly is deserving of more recognition, respect, and of course BETTER pay. Like any industry the quality of personnel will suffer unless the value of the service is truly recognized and appreciated.
For you pro's out there that work for the love of flying and the service you provide I commend you in a major way. Keep up the good work. Okay, my rant is over.
 
There are some jobs for pilots that pay very well, some that have a excellent quality of life and some that have both. The nice thing about aviation is that very little is handed to you, it's not like going to college for a job, showing up for class, graduating and walking into that job.

I used to tell my students, getting your commercial requires a bit of thought, how are you going to build up those 250hrs so you are ahead of your peers, keep in mind there are many paths one can take to their CPL. The part that is even harder then the initial CPL is getting that first job and staging yourself for where you want to go.

If ones heart isn't 100% in this profession, there isn't much chance for success .
 
There are plenty of nice paying jobs in aviation. Just don't go to crappy regionals or haul cargo for a crappy operator...
 
it's not like going to college for a job, showing up for class, graduating and walking into that job.

Boy do I feel terrible now that everyone knows how I got my BSc in physics. I just showed up for the amazing tuition-free courses on things like calculus, quantum, electrodynamics, statistical and thermal physics, electronics, computer science, and lab work, let the homework and exams practically do themselves, and then graduated. Simple! No fuss, no student debt! Then I just walked into my programming jobs; nobody asked me during interviews to write code on a blackboard, review my knowledge of computer science, or arcane programming trivia, or ask about past employment.

I hate when people spill the secret of how easy college really is and how it lets you magically into high paying easy jobs! Shhh!
 
Guys I have to say that I am truly disappointed about the lack of pay professional pilots are receiving. Throughout my time on this message board I have seen figures ranging from $45,000 dollars a year to as little as $18,000 which I find truly pathetic. I've heard the terms "glorified bus driver" being thrown around and that truly disturbs me. In my mind being a pro-pilot should be seen as a truly vital service whether it be cargo or humans being transported. In my mind the skill set necessary to professionally transport cargo and people in all weather conditions is something that truly is deserving of more recognition, respect, and of course BETTER pay. Like any industry the quality of personnel will suffer unless the value of the service is truly recognized and appreciated.
For you pro's out there that work for the love of flying and the service you provide I commend you in a major way. Keep up the good work. Okay, my rant is over.

I personally know a few pro pilots. Several of them have second jobs or side businesses. They do not get paid enough, I agree.... but mostly because of how much money they spent getting the ratings and hours to even land an interview. In other words, I don't feel they make that money back soon enough. What's worse is the sooner they get to be a CFI the sooner they can use that to get hours which leaves us student pilots with some people who don't really want to be instructors. I met a Virgin America First Officer who said he wouldn't even teach his children to fly since it would be so horrible and that when he "had to be" a "flight instructor in Florida" he had "female students who couldn't even fly a kite much less a plane." What a shame, I went up to the cockpit for a tour of the controls, asked him about his career, he was in his 20's and already bitter.
 
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Guys I have to say that I am truly disappointed about the lack of pay professional pilots are receiving. Throughout my time on this message board I have seen figures ranging from $45,000 dollars a year to as little as $18,000 which I find truly pathetic.

While they're getting paid, I wouldn't consider many of those doing those jobs to be "professionals." Many of them are "time builders," curtain climbing their way into a career. If you consider the typical young inexperienced three hundred hour wonder in a regional right seat, calling that person a "professional' is a stretch.

Yes, the wages are pathetic, but the wages to which you're referring are entry level jobs, and jobs which require very little skill beyond FAA certificates and a warm body. They're akin to ski instructors, as are many flight instructors.

To reach a point where one really has something to offer, which is judgement and experience, good customer skills and a professional approach to one's job, takes far more than getting hired into a paying position, much less an entry level job.

I met a Virgin America First Officer who said he wouldn't even teach his children to fly since it would be so horrible and that when he "had to be" a "flight instructor in Florida" he had "female students who couldn't even fly a kite much less a plane." What a shame, I went up to the cockpit for a tour of the controls, asked him about his career, he was in his 20's and already bitter.

That's exactly the kind of person to which I refer. Doesn't act or speak professional, isn't professional, doesn't matter what the salary or wage. Steer clear of such types. They don't represent professional pilots. They're time builders with a uniform, and little more.
 
Doug, I agree. You should have heard how the Captain treated him. It seemed like a joke, at the time, but not very nice.

I was doing my thing, saying hi to the pilots, like I always do, while the passengers were boarding.

So, in conversation, I said to the Captain:

"What's up with those stripes on your shoulder, anyways?"

He replied (for real):

(Pointing at 3 lines on First Officer shoulder)

DON'T

ASK

ME

I

DON'T

KNOW

(he said each word, six words, as he pointed to each stripe)
 
Boy do I feel terrible now that everyone knows how I got my BSc in physics. I just showed up for the amazing tuition-free courses on things like calculus, quantum, electrodynamics, statistical and thermal physics, electronics, computer science, and lab work, let the homework and exams practically do themselves, and then graduated. Simple! No fuss, no student debt! Then I just walked into my programming jobs; nobody asked me during interviews to write code on a blackboard, review my knowledge of computer science, or arcane programming trivia, or ask about past employment.

I hate when people spill the secret of how easy college really is and how it lets you magically into high paying easy jobs! Shhh!

You said it. When I recall how easy it was to carry an average of 24 Credit Hours each and every quarter in Engineering of such gut classes as Differential Equations, mechanisims, thermodynamics, heat transfer, Calculus, machine design, finite elements, and a few other sleepers, I am amazed. Of course the lab work running various analytical mechanics experiments on car chassis and machinery frames was just a walk in the park. BUT, the quarters in between where I was working my co-op job as an apprentice Machinst was a really nice easy break.

The simple interviews I had after graduating on time in the five year program were another walk in the park where all I had to do was describe how I would approach a design for an attachment for a Cat D-6 and other similar pieces of cake.

It's a real shame the secret is now out.

rats
 
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Doug, I agree. You should have heard how the Captain treated him. It seemed like a joke, at the time, but not very nice.

I was doing my thing, saying hi to the pilots, like I always do, while the passengers were boarding.

So, in conversation, I said to the Captain:

"What's up with those stripes on your shoulder, anyways?"

He replied (for real):

(Pointing at 3 lines on First Officer shoulder)

DON'T

ASK

ME

I

DON'T

KNOW

(he said each word, six words, as he pointed to each stripe)


FO: Flap Operator
 
Depends on the operation.

I've met a few captains who really need six or seven bars on each shoulder to sooth their tired ego, and I've met a lot of first officers who have ample experience.

I've known a lot of 20,000 hour first officers.

I've known a lot of pilots who have been through more than a few employers due to furloughs, mergers, bankruptcies, etc. I've had quite a few of them myself; each one a different experience, and each move just like starting over once more, because...it is.
 
Depends on the operation.

I've met a few captains who really need six or seven bars on each shoulder to sooth their tired ego, and I've met a lot of first officers who have ample experience.

I've known a lot of 20,000 hour first officers.

I've known a lot of pilots who have been through more than a few employers due to furloughs, mergers, bankruptcies, etc. I've had quite a few of them myself; each one a different experience, and each move just like starting over once more, because...it is.

Yet another reason I didn't go into that business. I have 15 years of experience doing what I do. When I start a new job, they expect me to use those years and do what I do best. I'm often paid more than others who have been there longer and respected for what I can bring to the company.
 
As one gains more experience (and certification) in the industry, one has more options, and one can generally hold out for a higher paying job: some refuse to work for less, and end up unemployed, and some refuse to do certain jobs, and end up unemployed.

In aviation, it's a near certainty that one will experience certain turnovers in one's employment throughout one's career, be it downsizing, furloughs, bankruptcies, mergers, or a host of other reasons, often without any notice or even explanation. It happens.

When one leaves those jobs, however, one leaves typically with a type rating or specific experience that enables one to go in search of other work. For example, one who has a 737 type rating has a very common type rating, and has more consideration for a position than someone who doesn't have that rating. Having this experience doesn't mean one starts over completely, but it does mean that if one switches airlines, for example, one starts over as a first officer. One isn't going to go back to making five dollars a load flying skydivers (although flying jumpers is fun), but one is going to go back to 36,000 a year as an entry level FO. The wages jump up the second year, but starting over is starting over...and one may be stuck in the right seat again for another ten years before the chance comes along to upgrade.

I'm not current in the Learjet, though I've got quite a bit of time in them. If I want to go work for someone with a Learjet, I'm going to need to be current; the employer is going to need to spend some money to send me back to Simuflite or Flight Safety for at the recurrent course at a minimum; six to nine thousand dollars. It's not cheap. It's not the same as someone who is a legal secretary or an engineer, who can pick up where they left off. I can do that, but it's going to cost a lot, and that's the nature of aviation.

I've got friends that do contract work; they contract out by the day in a Hawker or Gulfstream or Lear. They have to maintain their own currency, which is expensive, so that factors into their daily charges. When a pilot charges eight hundred a day (or whatever he's charging for the type of aircraft he's flying), he's taking into account his insurance, and his recurrence. It's expensive.

Being qualified in multiple aircraft or types of flying means the ability to fall back and stay employed; it's a big thing in this business.

I left one job on short notice with no prospects; a week later I was making five hundred a day plus five hundred a flight hour with a new employer. Why? Because I had experience in that type of aircraft and type of operation. It enabled me to not only eat, but to make a decent income. In another case, I was furloughed; three weeks later I was making twenty dollars an hour turning wrenches as a mechanic, but within a week they needed a check airman, and I was turning wrenches, instructing, giving check rides, and writing a training program for their government contracts. I did that for a few months, then wen to Iraq for a different operation and stayed there, doing better than I'd made at the company that furloughed me. When I was recalled, I went back to my former employer at my original rate, and picked up where I left off (after turning down several recalls due to commitments in Iraq).

Yes, one finds one's self starting over all the time, but starting over isn't always a downhill spiral; it's more so for those who limit themselves by what they'll do, but I look at it as part of the variety which attracts me to the business, and an opportunity to diversify and learn more. Often, it's been these exposures to new and different kinds of flying that have given me opportunities down the road, that have been my "golden parachute" when a job went south, and that enabled me to stay employed. Take every opportunity you can to learn something new and to experience as much a diverse background as you can. You never know when it will pay off, especially in aviation.
 
I don't know if you have pets or a wife or a family. I have a boyfriend and a dog. I never want to leave this place, where I live, the Bay Area. Northern California. Doesn't do well for a pilot.

Oh and my sense of direction is probably worse than a two year old. It is not even funny at this point. It is pretty horrible.
 
I disagree. I have a soon to be wife (in one week), 2 dogs, a house in the bay area and there are plenty of aviation jobs in the bay area.

Not to mention there is a large percentage of aviation jobs that you can easily commute to from anywhere.
 
To address one of Doug's point and to reinforce the point Kimberly has just shacked dead center:

No matter how you spin it, lack of lateral income portability is one of the more fundamental shortcomings of the pilot profession. It is derived out of the seniority system and the fact most people attracted to the idea of working in a moving cubicle with a view attempt to pursue a flying job with a sense of avocation, which while seemingly admirable, turns quite toxic and counter-productive when it comes time to juggle that pesky Maslow Hierarchy of Needs Pyramid.

This is also derived out of the fact that, at least in scheduled carrier operations, the labor goal is to be carbon copies of each other, which does not really allow the leverage to offer your labor with discriminators from your peers. Shooting an ILS better than the other guy will never be able to be monetized in part 121. As such, you are at the behest of your peers and so it goes.

As opposed to oil rig work or high wire electrical maintenance, pilot is considered "neat-o" when juxtaposed to the seeming drudgery of office work, be it IT or engineering et al ad nauseam (though I consider the purgatory of commuting or reserve schedules a bigger misery than sitting at a CATIA scope all day...). As such, aviation junkies run the going asking price. They like to utilize the euphemisms "gotta do it for the love" or "pay your dues", but in essence such is the asking price of a religion, not a job....and a religion certainly falls within the spectrum of an avocation in terms of the relationship between commitment and financial solvency. I don't think jobs should have religion attached to them as asking prices.

Furthermore, there is a fundamental time-away-from-home element to the job that has nothing to do with the physical act of flying. This element is also endemic to other industries such as oil work. Those jobs however, do offer lateral career portability, because frankly there isn't a way to sell to these workers that flinging heavy metal in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico for 7 days at a time is neat-o and a non-economic remuneration in it of itself. But to each their own. And again, I speak exclusively about the part 121 world.

Automation is making all this moot. As more and more continue to flock into the pursuit of "doing what you love without object" automation will ensure that those with the aforementioned experience in judgement continue to command less and less for said value. Problem which the probervial Kimberly's of the world will never have.

That essentially describes the anatomy at the center of the OPs question about pay dynamics. Life is a choice, indeed, but let's separate and make a distinction between vocations and de facto cults, w.r.t. the need for the proletariat to be paid a wage for their labor exchange. I've always viewed my compensation to fly airplanes for uncle Sugar as a function of a bigger happenstance: that of paybanding. I might as well be called heavy machinery operator technician, for that is the equivalent banding my employer sees in his spreadsheet. That is a benefit that does not exist in private aviation. As such, I'll do this for as long as I can and when I can no longer do this, I'll do something else for a similar wage. I'm not about to make my job a religion.

In the end we set our priorities. If our vocation does not meet those priorities we change course or we die in self-made misery. Avocations are truly wonderful things, I just wish more pilots would recognize the difference for their own sake. Lots of despair and broken dreams in aviation. Look at Comair lately. Good luck to everyone in this journey.
 
It's actually pilots that cause the problem, I can't count how many times I have heard the phrase, "I'd do it for free" in threads asking about how to get their first job. As long as there is a labor pool willing to pay $100k in order to be exploited and abused, there will always be management willing and eager to exploit and abuse them.
 
I don't know if you have pets or a wife or a family. I have a boyfriend and a dog. I never want to leave this place, where I live, the Bay Area. Northern California. Doesn't do well for a pilot.

Pets, wife, and family, but I'm on a 100 day contract presently. No days off, no duty or time limits. Wrench turning when not flying, and busy. And...just found a whopping spider covered in little tiny spiders in the hangar area...right where I was sleeping for three weeks. Never a dull moment (or spider).

There are jobs in Northern California, just as everywhere else.

I have a soon to be wife (in one week), 2 dogs, a house in the bay area and there are plenty of aviation jobs in the bay area.

Congratulations on the impending marriage. From your posts, it appears that you're former military, and quite possibly in your first civil job. You probably haven't experienced multiple job losses, moves and changes yet (TDY in the military doesn't count). You probably will if you make it an extended career.

I know pilots who have been out of work for a long time (over a year), and have a hard time finding work. "Plenty of jobs" may be a rather rosy outlook, even in the good times.

Not to mention there is a large percentage of aviation jobs that you can easily commute to from anywhere.

Airline and some fractional jobs, yes, but most other jobs, no. Commuting is great is someone is paying for your ticket or if you have jumpseat privileges...otherwise it gets expensive very quickly.

As opposed to oil rig work or high wire electrical maintenance, pilot is considered "neat-o" when juxtaposed to the seeming drudgery of office work, be it IT or engineering et al ad nauseam (though I consider the purgatory of commuting or reserve schedules a bigger misery than sitting at a CATIA scope all day...). As such, aviation junkies run the going asking price. They like to utilize the euphemisms "gotta do it for the love" or "pay your dues", but in essence such is the asking price of a religion, not a job....and a religion certainly falls within the spectrum of an avocation in terms of the relationship between commitment and financial solvency. I don't think jobs should have religion attached to them as asking prices.

Aviation isn't religion. It's a job. It's a profession. It's an industry.

As aviation professionals, it's somewhat demeaning to be classed as "aviation junkies." Simply because we enjoy what we do for a living doesn't diminish our professional nature.

Most certainly one must "pay one's dues" when trying to gain the experience to marketable, every bit as much as one must intern in the medical profession.

Aviation doesn't have religion attached to it, nor an "asking price." Aviation does live on a razor-thin profit margin, and it's tenuous at best. It always has been.

No matter how you spin it, lack of lateral income portability is one of the more fundamental shortcomings of the pilot profession. It is derived out of the seniority system and the fact most people attracted to the idea of working in a moving cubicle with a view attempt to pursue a flying job with a sense of avocation, which while seemingly admirable, turns quite toxic and counter-productive when it comes time to juggle that pesky Maslow Hierarchy of Needs Pyramid.

Maslow wasn't an aviator.

The "seniority system" applies to airline pilots, and certainly not to much of the aviation industry. There is still much of the industry in which one is hired because one is the best one for the job, seniority not withstanding.

I don't work in a moving cubicle with a view. Today I got slammed around the sky, dealt with turbulence and windshear, had a cockpit full of smoke, flew between pine trees and rocks, hit one of the biggest bugs I've ever encountered in flight, landed at some unique airports, and caught a really interesting spider.

I bed Maslow never caught any spiders.
 
Boy do I feel terrible now that everyone knows how I got my BSc in physics. I just showed up for the amazing tuition-free courses on things like calculus, quantum, electrodynamics, statistical and thermal physics, electronics, computer science, and lab work, let the homework and exams practically do themselves, and then graduated. Simple! No fuss, no student debt! Then I just walked into my programming jobs; nobody asked me during interviews to write code on a blackboard, review my knowledge of computer science, or arcane programming trivia, or ask about past employment.

I hate when people spill the secret of how easy college really is and how it lets you magically into high paying easy jobs! Shhh!

There are times I think I must be speaking Swahili or something...

Ok, you got a BS in physics, I'm sure it was tough and you did a good job, great! that has jack to do with the point I was TRYING to make.

There is only one way to go through that program, you have a syllabus that is drawn out for your class time, you follow, you do well, you graduate.

Now take someone working towards their CPL, they can get their CPL much like you got your BS, however they could do it in a 172, a multi, a taildragger (like I did), in a chopper, at a puppy mill school, with a independent CFI. Most of their class time is hour building, they could just fly local (as most unfortunately do) or they could go on huge x-countries, help out pilots and paws, angel flight, etc.

Now when it comes time for a first real job how they got their CPL will make a difference between who gets a "any warm body with a CPL" job and a good first job at a company that wants to invest in them.

ALSO, as for your tuition, any idea what it costs to get a CPL??

for the average person, the ROI on 60k for flight training is VERY low compared to the soft shoed professional educational alternatives.
 
I love to fly. I have been a passenger, and give free rides to my passengers a heck of a lot of the time, but I love to fly. I think if I got paid for it I would lose the romance.

In the plane, last night, I was just awestruck with the beauty of my area at night. I could just let it all sink in. I even closed my eyes to listen to the engine, much more powerful than mine. I was in an HP / Complex, with a multi-thousand hour pilot, and then he landed and climbed in my plane.... and he relaxed with my puny hours and my three lame night landings!

Being a pilot is awesome, I just can't get paid to do it. Never. He does, but in a roundabout way. He admits it is his first love. We have a lot in common. We are both only Private Pilots. He doesn't even have an IR. I know everyone wants to see me get all these ratings, but, I'm happy. I want to get better, and fly more. I just don't know if I want to get paid.
 
I love to fly. I have been a passenger, and give free rides to my passengers a heck of a lot of the time, but I love to fly. I think if I got paid for it I would lose the romance.

Following your passion is what life is all about. I gave up a lot of what most consider the "normal" things in life, stable schedules, regular hours, getting to live in the same place for more than three years in a row. etc.

My path had one thing that most aviation careers lacked, which was stable employment. Sure the pay was low at first but the benefits such as housing and transportation assistance when making the often long and frequent moves. But it never lost that special something that I needed to feed my soul just because I got a check each month. Now that I am retired I can honestly say while my flying is drastically different, I still love it.
 
I've probably had one of the more stable aviation careers. I moved around a bit in the beginning but it was mostly my choice as I was restless. Then inertia set in...
 
Guys I have to say that I am truly disappointed about the lack of pay professional pilots are receiving. Throughout my time on this message board I have seen figures ranging from $45,000 dollars a year to as little as $18,000 which I find truly pathetic. I've heard the terms "glorified bus driver" being thrown around and that truly disturbs me. In my mind being a pro-pilot should be seen as a truly vital service whether it be cargo or humans being transported.

I think bus drivers provide a truly vital service. I suspect the world would survive longer without pilots than it would without bus drivers (and the cargo equivalent, truck drivers).

In my mind the skill set necessary to professionally transport cargo and people in all weather conditions is something that truly is deserving of more recognition, respect, and of course BETTER pay.
As long as that transportation is done by air? Re-read your post, you're not giving any respect to the people who do it by ground. If being compared to bus drivers is some egregious affront to pilots, that says something of your opinion of the professionals who do the equally thankless job by ground.

Like any industry the quality of personnel will suffer unless the value of the service is truly recognized and appreciated.
Your rant seems focussed on the airlines (and mainly the regionals). There are jobs outside the airlines where it's more of a personal connection between employer and employee. That works well for some people, not so well for others.

I've always wondered at the huge disparity between pay and lifestyle of the new hire and senior captain in the airlines. The 1st year regional pay is insulting, while the senior captain pay at a major airline is far higher. With the unions and their contracts, it seems it doesn't have to be that way, but it still is. I wonder if a less extreme disparity would make for a better career.
 
It's actually pilots that cause the problem, I can't count how many times I have heard the phrase, "I'd do it for free" in threads asking about how to get their first job. As long as there is a labor pool willing to pay $100k in order to be exploited and abused, there will always be management willing and eager to exploit and abuse them.

I agree and disagree with you on this.

Quick story.

I am a software developer, and at the time of this story was writing blast analyses software for the Air Force. Not all that fun, but it paid well.

One of my collage friends was working in a visual arts studio. I was over at his work hanging out, and he was showing me some of the stuff he was doing. At the time, he was adding in helicopters into a Michael Jackson video. He had also just done some wireframes for an episode of the Simpsons that was done with 3D animation.

He regularly did work for lots of TV shows. He was finishing up, and I said lets go grab some food. He said "sure, but your paying". I then found out, he made minimum wage. I was shocked. I asked why he didn't ask for more, and he said because there were 50 people behind him willing to take his job, and he loved what he did.

He has a CS degree, and at any point could have come worked with me for 50K a year (this was the late 90's, with 1 year out of college), but he chose to do what he did, because it was his passon.

When you do something many people in the world want to do, you don't get paid much. You are paid what you are worth, and "worth" means what it would cost to replace you with someone equally qualified.

It's why teachers don't get paid all that much. It's not that they aren't valued, it's just that there are so many people willing to do it who are very capable.

This is not old Communist Russa. I don't know of anyone entering the Aviation field who doesn't know what they are choosing to step into. Also last I checked, you could stop being one and go do something else with your life.
 
When you do something many people in the world want to do, you don't get paid much. You are paid what you are worth, and "worth" means what it would cost to replace you with someone equally qualified.

It's why teachers don't get paid all that much. It's not that they aren't valued, it's just that there are so many people willing to do it who are very capable.

This is not old Communist Russa. I don't know of anyone entering the Aviation field who doesn't know what they are choosing to step into. Also last I checked, you could stop being one and go do something else with your life.

VERY, VERY well said!
 
I've had more than one pro pilot step through my doors trying to use education to get a better life. I think my nephew will spend about as much on an engineering degree as he would on pilot training. I think his employment prospects will be far better though.

What gets lost here is I can't see anyone falling in love with wearing some airline's cheap looking uniform and managing systems on a jet. I love flying, but that sounds dull even to me. We fall in love with flying a cub a treetop level adoring the setting sun.

At least, that's how I see it. I love flying, but I am glad I never pursued aviation as a job. I am gratified that members of our little asylum have been able to do so generating fulfilling careers, though.
 
\__[Ô]__/;961818 said:
I've always wondered at the huge disparity between pay and lifestyle of the new hire and senior captain in the airlines. The 1st year regional pay is insulting, while the senior captain pay at a major airline is far higher. With the unions and their contracts, it seems it doesn't have to be that way, but it still is. I wonder if a less extreme disparity would make for a better career.

Yea, if was me, I would pay per person on the plane (with some sliding scale for size and distance).

I think of it like a pharmacist. a 1st year and 20 year pharmacist can both be making the same salary.

The reason, is they both need to be equally good. Neither of them can afford a mistake, or someone dies.

So if someone is carrying 20 people 300 miles in a flight, they get paid X. I don't care if it's your first year, or 15th. You both need to be equally good at it.
 
Yea, if was me, I would pay per person on the plane (with some sliding scale for size and distance).

I think of it like a pharmacist. a 1st year and 20 year pharmacist can both be making the same salary.

The reason, is they both need to be equally good. Neither of them can afford a mistake, or someone dies.

So if someone is carrying 20 people 300 miles in a flight, they get paid X. I don't care if it's your first year, or 15th. You both need to be equally good at it.
It's all about supply and demand. Paramedics don't get paid that well either because too many people watched "Emergency!" and shows like it when they were kids.

I managed to avoid the really low-paying pilot jobs at the beginning of my career because I had a niche job in a cliquish industry and I stayed in that industry for a long time.
 
Pets, wife, and family, but I'm on a 100 day contract presently. No days off, no duty or time limits. Wrench turning when not flying, and busy. And...just found a whopping spider covered in little tiny spiders in the hangar area...right where I was sleeping for three weeks. Never a dull moment (or spider).

There are jobs in Northern California, just as everywhere else.



Congratulations on the impending marriage. From your posts, it appears that you're former military, and quite possibly in your first civil job. You probably haven't experienced multiple job losses, moves and changes yet (TDY in the military doesn't count). You probably will if you make it an extended career.

I know pilots who have been out of work for a long time (over a year), and have a hard time finding work. "Plenty of jobs" may be a rather rosy outlook, even in the good times.



Airline and some fractional jobs, yes, but most other jobs, no. Commuting is great is someone is paying for your ticket or if you have jumpseat privileges...otherwise it gets expensive very quickly.



Aviation isn't religion. It's a job. It's a profession. It's an industry.

As aviation professionals, it's somewhat demeaning to be classed as "aviation junkies." Simply because we enjoy what we do for a living doesn't diminish our professional nature.

Most certainly one must "pay one's dues" when trying to gain the experience to marketable, every bit as much as one must intern in the medical profession.

Aviation doesn't have religion attached to it, nor an "asking price." Aviation does live on a razor-thin profit margin, and it's tenuous at best. It always has been.



Maslow wasn't an aviator.

The "seniority system" applies to airline pilots, and certainly not to much of the aviation industry. There is still much of the industry in which one is hired because one is the best one for the job, seniority not withstanding.

I don't work in a moving cubicle with a view. Today I got slammed around the sky, dealt with turbulence and windshear, had a cockpit full of smoke, flew between pine trees and rocks, hit one of the biggest bugs I've ever encountered in flight, landed at some unique airports, and caught a really interesting spider.

I bed Maslow never caught any spiders.


I was military but have been out since 2006. I have had multiple aviation jobs and just took another job for a charter company. There are jobs out there, it's all about who you know.

And quite frankly, the job losses, displacements and all that other drama is largely associated with regionals and major airlines. It's not as bad in the 135 world. That's not to say I have been fortunate because I have. But in the corporate world you really don't experience the pains that the 121 passenger industry experiences.

As for commuting, the majority of aviation jobs' schedules allow for commuting. Every 121 operator, the majority of 135 charter jobs have schedules that allow it. Whether or not those companies have reciprocal agreements is another story.
 
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What gets lost here is I can't see anyone falling in love with wearing some airline's cheap looking uniform and managing systems on a jet. I love flying, but that sounds dull even to me. We fall in love with flying a cub a treetop level adoring the setting sun.

At least, that's how I see it. I love flying, but I am glad I never pursued aviation as a job. I am gratified that members of our little asylum have been able to do so generating fulfilling careers, though.

When I was in the Navy I was at a crossroads. I had to choose whether to get paid to fly, or try and make money to fly for fun. I chose professional aviation and haven't regretted it one bit. No matter what anyone tells you, getting paid to fly as a job takes some of the fun out of it. If they tell you otherwise they are full of crap. But people have to remember that there are many aspects of aviation that people can fall in love with. I LOVE manhandling a Pitts S2c to its limits, but I also love hitting the flight levels in a complex airplane, managing complex systems, negotiating weather and other situations, and getting unknowing passengers to a cool destination. All the while making it look easy. I also love flying a King Air single pilot, full of bull seamen through a thunderstorm to reach an airport that is in the middle of nowhere.

Right now aviation is at a low, waiting for a rebound. It will get good again but who knows when that will be.

I also disagree with you about the uniform. I remember as a kid when I would hop on a jet, and the captain would be there to greet us. He looked 20 feet tall to me and I was in awe. That uniform was respected, and a symbol of something. I think that has been lost. Or at least the lust lost on me lol. But I still love putting my captain bars (or FO bars depending) on my freshly ironed uniform. I am proud of it and wear it proudly. Nothing makes me more mad than when I see some crapbag wearing some dirty, sloppy uniform.
 
It's all about supply and demand. Paramedics don't get paid that well either because too many people watched "Emergency!" and shows like it when they were kids.

I managed to avoid the really low-paying pilot jobs at the beginning of my career because I had a niche job in a cliquish industry and I stayed in that industry for a long time.

yea, the absolute salary is based on supply and demand. My point was someone with a little experience and a lot of experience in isolated fields, should get paid the same, because if the one with less experience is less capable, they shouldn't be doing the job in the first place.
 
I chose professional aviation and haven't regretted it one bit. No matter what anyone tells you, getting paid to fly as a job takes some of the fun out of it. If they tell you otherwise they are full of crap.

I have a friend that drives a truck for a living. On his days off, he gets in his 66 Mustang, and drives around for fun.

Not sure why aviation wouldn't be the same. If you got a fun GA aircraft, do you think it would be less fun to fly because you fly for a living?
 
And quite frankly, the job losses, displacements and all that other drama is largely associated with regionals and major airlines. It's not as bad in the 135 world. That's not to say I have been fortunate because I have. But in the corporate world you really don't experience the pains that the 121 passenger industry experiences.

I've experienced those job losses and displacements and "other drama" working for the government, contracting jobs, airline flying, corporate flying, charter flying, fractional flying, doing ag work, utility flying, and other duties in aviation. It's not at all an airline thing.

I don't know a single corporate pilot who hasn't lost a job with little or no notice. It happened to me too; I was given a day's notice. We're selling the aircraft, thanks for your service, goodbye. I've known others who showed up to find the building locked, no notice.

I know a lot of out of work fractional pilots. I was one of them.

Try seasonal flying; your'e out of work every year for half the year. Been there, done that.
 
I've had a pretty good/lucky career so far. Fairly good money, certainly more than the $20-40k often quoted, and spend more time at home than my wife wants me to I think. I've flown more in the last month or so than I have in the last nine and I'm still under 300hrs for the year because most of it has been in the last couple of months. I'm in my mid 30s and have two small children that see me so much they consider it strange when I walk out the door. That's a great feeling.

If someone wants to sit in a cubicle 40hrs a week running a computer and fixing whatever problem they have been tasked to solve, more power to them. I'd rather look out at the bleak beauty that is Greenland, watch the northern lights in the winter and gaze at the noctilucent clouds on summer mornings. Fly great equipment into some interesting destinations and get to see other parts of the world. Hop off the airplane and my job is done, it's time to go have fun. Fine cuisine and beverages while enjoying the company of some great individuals. See the sights, take in some culture, and occasionally rest since I have two small children at home. :)

My situation may be unique in the 121 world, but not everything is working and being gone 21 days a month while staying at a Ramada in North Platte, NE.

No offense to anyone from North Platte.
 
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I also disagree with you about the uniform. I remember as a kid when I would hop on a jet, and the captain would be there to greet us. He looked 20 feet tall to me and I was in awe. That uniform was respected, and a symbol of something. I think that has been lost. Or at least the lust lost on me lol. But I still love putting my captain bars (or FO bars depending) on my freshly ironed uniform. I am proud of it and wear it proudly. Nothing makes me more mad than when I see some crapbag wearing some dirty, sloppy uniform.

The only other people I know of employed in private enterprise wearing a uniform do so working in the fast food industry.
 
I agree and disagree with you on this.

Quick story.

I am a software developer, and at the time of this story was writing blast analyses software for the Air Force. Not all that fun, but it paid well.

One of my collage friends was working in a visual arts studio. I was over at his work hanging out, and he was showing me some of the stuff he was doing. At the time, he was adding in helicopters into a Michael Jackson video. He had also just done some wireframes for an episode of the Simpsons that was done with 3D animation.

He regularly did work for lots of TV shows. He was finishing up, and I said lets go grab some food. He said "sure, but your paying". I then found out, he made minimum wage. I was shocked. I asked why he didn't ask for more, and he said because there were 50 people behind him willing to take his job, and he loved what he did.

He has a CS degree, and at any point could have come worked with me for 50K a year (this was the late 90's, with 1 year out of college), but he chose to do what he did, because it was his passon.

When you do something many people in the world want to do, you don't get paid much. You are paid what you are worth, and "worth" means what it would cost to replace you with someone equally qualified.

It's why teachers don't get paid all that much. It's not that they aren't valued, it's just that there are so many people willing to do it who are very capable.

This is not old Communist Russa. I don't know of anyone entering the Aviation field who doesn't know what they are choosing to step into. Also last I checked, you could stop being one and go do something else with your life.

I'm missing the part where you disagreed with me...:dunno:
 
I'm missing the part where you disagreed with me...:dunno:

As long as there is a labor pool willing to pay $100k in order to be exploited and abused, there will always be management willing and eager to exploit and abuse them.

They are not being exploited or abused. They are being paid what they are worth, asked to work no more hours then many many other professions.
 
The only other people I know of employed in private enterprise wearing a uniform do so working in the fast food industry.

Private security, transportation, maintenance, etc. heck, you can make a good argument that the suit worn by executives in banking, finance, etc. is a uniform at just isn't supplied by the company,
 
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