Procedure Turn Question

guest user said:
1) As there is no intersection for the procedure turn, any point after SNOWL would be fine, staying w/in 10mi of SNOWL, not IWA. Note that the PT is shown after a DME of 9.9 in relation to IWA, so IWA is out as the 10mi reference, and note that the diagram references SNOWL intersection so the 10mi is in relation to the SNOWL intersection.

2) The direction of the second turn does not matter, it is your choice. A turn to the left, would give you more time to set up the approach, but a turn to the right would get you on the ground sooner.



edited to clarify that point 2 was in relation to the second turn. The first turn most definitely is to the right.
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I agree with your response, but point out that the PT, although depicted after HALLB (9.9 IWA DME), it is not relevant to where the PT is conducted, that is the PT may be conducted inside or outside of HALLB as long as the aircraft remains within 10 NM of SNOWL as shown in the profile view. The fact that the PT is shown after HALLB is due to the limitation on the space needed to chart the PT.
 
John Collins said:
I agree with your response, but point out that the PT, although depicted after HALLB (9.9 IWA DME), it is not relevant to where the PT is conducted, that is the PT may be conducted inside or outside of HALLB as long as the aircraft remains within 10 NM of SNOWL as shown in the profile view. The fact that the PT is shown after HALLB is due to the limitation on the space needed to chart the PT.
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Sometimes they do have to depict things not to the usual scale so to speak, because of Chart clutter. But that doesn't seem to be the case here with the location of the Barb. It's about 6.5 miles from SNOWL. I looked at a number of other Charts and 6.5 miles is typical.

I would change your your post to read"...I agree with your response, but point out that the Barb, although depicted after HALLB (9.9 IWA DME), is not relevant to where the Course Reversal is begun if using the Barb method of PT, that is, it may be conducted inside or outside of HALLB as long as the aircraft remains within 10 NM of SNOWL as shown in the profile view. The fact that the Barb is shown after HALLB is due to the limitation on the space needed to chart the PT..."

There is no requirement to fly the Barb.
 
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aterpster said:
Pilots flew procedure turns for many, many years without DME or GPS. It's called "Rate-Time-Distance" navigation.
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Yup. When I got my instrument training in a 172 in 1992, I was taught to fly two minutes outbound from the PT fix and then fly one minute out on the 45 before making the 180 to the intercept heading. At 172 speeds, that seemed to allow ample margin to stay within the ten-mile limit.

Standard-procedure-turn.jpg

As has been pointed out, other styles of course reversal are permitted, but I never felt the need to reinvent the wheel, especially for a checkride.

[Edited to correct the date.]
 
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Palmpilot said:
Yup. When I got my instrument training in a 172 in 1991, I was taught to fly two minutes outbound from the PT fix and then fly one minute out on the 45 before making the 180 to the intercept heading. At 172 speeds, that seemed to allow ample margin to stay within the ten-mile limit.

View attachment 111621

As has been pointed out, other styles of course reversal are permitted, but I never felt the need to reinvent the wheel, especially for a checkride.
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Would you not even consider doing a Racetrack type of Procedure Turn if you arrived at GEP from the West, like on V78? You could get it done with 2 turns instead of 5.
 
Palmpilot said:
Yup. When I got my instrument training in a 172 in 1991, I was taught to fly two minutes outbound from the PT fix and then fly one minute out on the 45 before making the 180 to the intercept heading.
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That’s exactly what I was taught only 12 months ago. If it works-it works.
 
luvflyin said:
Would you not even consider doing a Racetrack type of Procedure Turn if you arrived at GEP from the West, like on V78? You could get it done with 2 turns instead of 5.
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I haven't encountered that situation, but that sounds like a good reason to do as you suggest.
 
John Collins said:
I agree with your response, but point out that the PT, although depicted after HALLB (9.9 IWA DME), it is not relevant to where the PT is conducted.
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Thanks, but I addressed that. Actually in the first sentence of what you quoted.

As there is no intersection for the procedure turn, any point after SNOWL would be fine, staying w/in 10mi of SNOWL
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So yeah, PT protected area begins at SNOWL outbound and extends for 10mi from that point.
 
I am arriving from the west over RELAE for the procedure turn. When can I descend to 13,100?
00504iyly19.jpg
 
luvflyin said:
Sometimes they do have to depict things not to the usual scale so to speak, because of Chart clutter. But that doesn't seem to be the case here with the location of the Barb. It's about 6.5 miles from SNOWL. I looked at a number of other Charts and 6.5 miles is typical.

I would change your post to read "...I agree with your response, but point out that the Barb, although depicted after HALLB (9.9 IWA DME), is not relevant to where the Course Reversal is begun if using the Barb method of PT, that is, it may be conducted inside or outside of HALLB as long as the aircraft remains within 10 NM of SNOWL as shown in the profile view. The fact that the Barb is shown after HALLB is due to the limitation on the space needed to chart the PT..."

There is no requirement to fly the Barb.
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John Collins said:
I don't need to change my post. It said what I meant it to say.
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I didn’t mean you should literally change it. I meant it’s how I would have said it.
 
If you overshoot QUIRT, the MSA is only 12,700. So you would need to be on the localizer or to the west of it.
 
luvflyin said:
How so? The answer to the question seems so obvious to me to be QUIRT that now I’m wondering if I’m missing something.
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The visual complexity of the chart. Due to surrounding terrain, there's lots of stuff happening in a very small area. It requires degree of attention you don't need with most so increased chart reading skills.
 
Walboy said:
If you overshoot QUIRT, the MSA is only 12,700. So you would need to be on the localizer or to the west of it.
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We are dealing with ground-based navaids, not GPS turn anticipation. You will go past QUIRT while turning outbound. Remember that the PT has protected airspace on the non-barb side too.

upload_2022-10-23_10-18-4.png
 
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midlifeflyer said:
We are dealing with ground-based navaids, not GPS turn anticipation. You will go past QUIRT while turning outbound. Remember that the PT has protected airspace on the non-barb side too.
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Agreed, I should have said "when" instead of "if"

Attention to detail.
 
My question is about the underlined 14,100. That means the procedure turn entry zone has a floor of 14,100. You cannot descend below 14,100 until not only past QUIRT, but proceeding outbound. (AIM 5-4-9 a. 2.)
 
aterpster said:
I am arriving from the west over RELAE for the procedure turn. When can I descend to 13,100?
View attachment 111640
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My guess would be that you can begin the descent when you are established outbound in the procedure turn.

When I was training for the instrument rating, my instructor advised me to "Never descend without course guidance!"
 
aterpster said:
My question is about the underlined 14,100. That means the procedure turn entry zone has a floor of 14,100. You cannot descend below 14,100 until not only past QUIRT, but proceeding outbound. (AIM 5-4-9 a. 2.)
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Palmpilot said:
My guess would be that you can begin the descent when you are established outbound in the procedure turn.
/QUOTE]
Of course. Like any route with a minimum altitude.
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midlifeflyer said:
The visual complexity of the chart. Due to surrounding terrain, there's lots of stuff happening in a very small area. It requires degree of attention you don't need with most so increased chart reading skills.
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Ah. Here’s Jepps chart for a different view. Seems maybe a little easier read. One thing has me scratching my head though. Wonder why they put the DME from DNW for TRIPS on there.

upload_2022-10-23_7-29-34.png
 
I think it is you stating, "Of course. Like any route with a minimum altitude.'

The procedure turn is not a route. If the entry and maneuvering are the same altitude, then you can begin descent as soon as QUIRT is passed; i.e., at the start of the outbound turn. In this case, though, 14,100 is the minimum altitude until the outbound turn is completed.
 
aterpster said:
My question is about the underlined 14,100. That means the procedure turn entry zone has a floor of 14,100. You cannot descend below 14,100 until not only past QUIRT, but proceeding outbound. (AIM 5-4-9 a. 2.)
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Here it is. I’m not so sure that says you must be on the outbound course before descending.
2. Descent to the procedure turn (PT) completion altitude from the PT fix altitude (when one has been published or assigned by ATC) must not begin
until crossing over the PT fix or abeam and proceeding outbound. Some procedures contain a note in the chart profile view that says “Maintain
(altitude) or above until established outbound for procedure turn” (See FIG 5−4−16). Newer procedures will simply depict an “at or above” altitude at the
PT fix without a chart note (See FIG 5−4−17). Both are there to ensure required obstacle clearance is provided in the procedure turn entry zone (See
FIG 5−4−18). Absence of a chart note or specified minimum altitude adjacent to the PT fix is an indication that descent to the procedure turn altitude can commence immediately upon crossing over the PT fix, regardless of the direction of flight. This is because the minimum altitudes in the PT entry zone and the PT maneuvering zone are the same.
 
aterpster said:
I think it is you stating, "Of course. Like any route with a minimum altitude.'

The procedure turn is not a route. If the entry and maneuvering are the same altitude, then you can begin descent as soon as QUIRT is passed; i.e., at the start of the outbound turn. In this case, though, 14,100 is the minimum altitude until the outbound turn is completed.
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Of course if the entry and the maneuvering are all at the same altitude, you can stay at the altitude (they are underlined too).

Well yeah, I guess technically it's a segment, not a specific course. But the principle is the same and I'm not sure how the distinction in this case is an aid to understanding.
 
aterpster said:
I didn't say on the outbound course. I said, "outbound."
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Yes you did. My jump to conclusion that you meant on outbound course. My bad.
So now the question is, when are you ‘outbound?’ When you’ve begun the turn? Passed through a heading that equals the outbound course? Something else?
 
Maybe they oughta just do away with PT's and replace them with HILPT's. @RussR , would any HILPT template be contained within a PT template? Like maybe it wouldn't need to much calculation and Flight Check. It would have already been done.
 
luvflyin said:
Yes you did. My jump to conclusion that you meant on outbound course. My bad.
So now the question is, when are you ‘outbound?’ When you’ve begun the turn? Passed through a heading that equals the outbound course? Something else?
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There's the question. I go with the "established." While ICAO has some specifics on this, the FAA does not. The best we get from the FAA is, "To be stable or fixed on a route, route segment, altitude, heading, etc." Pretty much the same as the plain English definition. For me it means, I have completed enough of the turn that I am generally heading in the correct northerly direction and am on the PT side of the fix.

Not that there's any rush to get down. Even on this approach, we have 20 miles to lose 1,000'
 
luvflyin said:
I didn’t mean you should literally change it. I meant it’s how I would have said it.
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midlifeflyer said:
There's the question. I go with the "established." While ICAO has some specifics on this, the FAA does not. The best we get from the FAA is, "To be stable or fixed on a route, route segment, altitude, heading, etc." Pretty much the same as the plain English definition. For me it means, I have completed enough of the turn that I am generally heading in the correct northerly direction and am on the PT side of the fix.

Not that there's any rush to get down. Even on this approach, we have 20 miles to lose 1,000'
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Where is that? AIM? Instrument Procedures/Flying Handbook? Page and/or paragraphs if you have them. "To be stable or fixed on a route, route segment, altitude, heading, etc."
 
The mountains in this area are significant. I fly the PT as depicted on the Jeppesen chart. My technique would be to not leave 14,100 until turning outbound heading 322 degrees.
 
aterpster said:
The mountains in this area are significant. I fly the PT as depicted on the Jeppesen chart. My technique would be to not leave 14,100 until turning outbound heading 322 degrees.
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That sounds like a good idea. Even more, seeing as how there is only 1000 feet to lose, as @midlifeflyer pointed out, waiting until turning to get established Localizer inbound would offer even more peace of mind.
 
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luvflyin said:
Where is that? AIM? Instrument Procedures/Flying Handbook? Page and/or paragraphs if you have them. "To be stable or fixed on a route, route segment, altitude, heading, etc."
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Sorry. Pilot/Controller Glossary (I think they recently added altitude).
upload_2022-10-23_15-39-31.png
 
luvflyin said:
Yes you did. My jump to conclusion that you meant on outbound course. My bad....
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"Outbound course" was me. I knew it might be more restrictive than required, but I was playing it safe by applying what my CFII taught.
 
WDD said:
When is the checkride? If you haven't already, grill everyone you can who used that DPE on what to expect, etc.
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This coming Wednesday (10/26) afternoon. My CFII has referred many IR candidates to this DPE. He’s giving me lots of good pointers
 
Palmpilot said:
"Outbound course" was me. I knew it might be more restrictive than required, but I was playing it safe by applying what my CFII taught.
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It was from post #’s 64, 66 and 68. That being said, doing what your CFII taught can be a good thing. Saying what your CFI taught is the ‘regulation’ is another thing. Not saying that’s what your CFII is doing.
 
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