Procedure for Class D airport with TRSA (KAZO)

ArrowFlyer86

ArrowFlyer86

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I just finished a flight from KAZO to KDPA an hour ago and flight went great (aside from frigid 0 F temps). There was one hiccup and that was my communication with KAZO on the ground. Was hoping someone could help me understand the procedure and what to expect?

Let me walk through radio comms and then ask question...
Me: "KZOO Ground, Arrow 5042T at Duncan Aviation requesting VFR to the south with information X-Ray"
Ground: "Arrow 42T, KZOO ground say destination"
Me *confused why they're asking me this*: "... DuPage Airport KDPA... "
*5 seconds pass
Me: "*... via Goshen KGSH" (realizing I don't want them to think I'm flying across lake MI)
Ground: "Arrow 42T, what altitude"
Me: *confused again* "About 2000ish to start" (yes I actually said "-ish" I think... since I'm dumb)
Ground: "Arrow 5042T clear at or below 2500 feet maintain VFR at all times. Contact departure on XXX.XX"
*silence for about 60 seconds*
Me: *super confused* "KZOO ground do I contact departure for taxi clearance?"
Ground: "Taxi RWY 35 via C/A cross 5 hold short 27"
**went fine after this**

To be honest, I stumbled like an idiot on comms during this b/c I wasn't expectation any questions back to me. But I guess my question to someone more experienced is:
1) Is it normal for me to have to ask ground for my taxi communication in a follow-up message? I assume I'm not supposed to contact departure while I'm still on the ground for taxi... I'm used to getting my ground instructions on rwy/twy/cross/hold-short/etc from ground after my initial call. But I had to call them again. Is that normal?
2) I'm based at a Class D airport and always have been, so I'm accustomed to flying in/out of these airports, but I've never had them ask me my destination/waypoint before. I'm guessing this is because of TRSA service so departure knows where to point me? Not that I should do this, but could I tell them I don't want TRSA service before I even take off?
3) They automatically passed me off to South Bend approach when exiting TRSA area. I told South Bend approach I wanted to terminate flight following (and they acknowledged). Is that appropriate for me to do? Could I have done that with the TRSA before they passed me off?
4) While talking with TRSA I noticed I was the only person reading back instructions (e.g., 42T left turn towards Goshen) and then I read back. Everyone else was silent. They would say "Citation ABC descend and maintain 9000....." or "Hawker turn 320 heading and climb to 12000" (but no repeat of instruction). Just curious, should I have been verbally acknowledging his instructions -- or is it just sort of implied that you're listening? Or are they talking back to him on a different frequency?

Any recommendations/answers are appreciated so that hopefully next time I can be a little more competent talking to ATC! (and to any pilots at KAZO or ATC members who had the misfortune of hearing me stumble on the radio today, I'm sorry!)
 
Somewhere along the line you should have been taught what a TRACON is and how to operate at an airport equipped with one. Unfortunately, many instructors only give the minimum required amount of training.

Class B, C, and TRSA airports all operate similarly to what you experienced. If you pursue instrument training at some point a predeparture instrument clearance from a controlled airport follows a similar format as well.

1. Yes. After "readback correct" say "ready for taxi from [location]."
2. Yes, they are basically going to default to giving you flight following to your destination. You can decline service.
3. Yes, TRSA participation is voluntary.
4. The aircraft were on a different frequency and the same controller was handling multiple sectors.
 
Tom Wells said:
Is it normal for me to have to ask ground for my taxi communication in a follow-up message?
Click to expand...
KAZO has tower, ground and clearance delivery. Normally you'd call up CD then ground then tower. Sounds like you were talking to someone that thought they were handling CD.
Tom Wells said:
I assume I'm not supposed to contact departure while I'm still on the ground for taxi...
Click to expand...
There's a standard phraseology for clearances that goes by the acronym C.R.A.F.T - "Cleared to", Route, Altitude, Frequency, Transponder squawk. You were probably told something like "Cleared to <somewhere>, runway heading (route), at or below 2500 (altitude), contact departure on xxx.xx (frequency), squawk yyyy (transponder)." I think I learned this in PP training but promptly forgot about it until I started flying out of class C airports, which is pretty similar to a TRSA.
Tom Wells said:
Not that I should do this, but could I tell them I don't want TRSA service before I even take off?
Click to expand...
Yes, but it's a useful service. I personally wouldn't, but it's up to you.
Tom Wells said:
I told South Bend approach I wanted to terminate flight following (and they acknowledged). Is that appropriate for me to do? Could I have done that with the TRSA before they passed me off?
Click to expand...
Yes.
Tom Wells said:
Or are they talking back to him on a different frequency?
Click to expand...
Probably a different frequency. There's been a lot of that during the pandemic.
 
Sounds like a lot for a radar service area where participation is voluntary.
 
Thanks @dmspilot and @asicer.

@asicer -- Now that you write that out, that's correct and that's the instructions I did get (forgot while writing the post). They did tell me exactly that (CRAFT... cleared to, route, altitude, freq, transponder). I squawked a transponder code and then after takeoff they verified 'radar contact'. I knew using the TRSA was voluntary when operating in that area (and when I landed at KAZO I didn't use it), but wasn't sure if departure was different. I will normally use the service, but was just curious if you could ask not to use it when they tell you to as part of your instruction.
@dmspilot -- that phrase rings a bell when they told me "readback correct". Good to know that I should expect to then separately state "ready to taxi from X to Y".

Gotcha re: other frequencies... I thought that might be the case. I'm glad I read it back!

I guess only 2 remaining questions:
1) From what was mentioned, next time should I start by calling up Clearance Delivery, and getting my CRAFT readback.. THEN call ground and say "ready to taxi from X to Y"? Don't contact ground first...
2) I should plan on being automatically passed off to TRSA/Flight Following (and I see value in this service and normally I think I will use it). Does it help if I already file a VFR flight plan so they know which waypoints to direct me to as I get passed between control stations?

Thanks a lot folks. I'll be flying to KAZO a lot so this will save a lot of headache! And will be starting IFR lessons in the next couple months too.
 
You can pretend a TRSA is a class C except it's not obligatory that you participate. Outbound you're free to decline services as soon as you are out of the inner class D. Of course, most of the ones I'm familiar with, if you don't call the approach control inbound, they're a little testy if you just pop up on the tower freq at the class D boundary.
 
Tom Wells said:
1) From what was mentioned, next time should I start by calling up Clearance Delivery, and getting my CRAFT readback.. THEN call ground and say "ready to taxi from X to Y"? Don't contact ground first...
Click to expand...
Some places they want everyone to contact CD, others they only want IFR and yet others at times when they're not busy they want everyone to go straight to ground. Best to pay attention to what ATIS says about the topic. Absent that, CD will usually just tell you to go to ground if that's what they want, but you should make it clear that you're a VFR departure lest you get something inconvenient and/or confusing.
Tom Wells said:
2) I should plan on being automatically passed off to TRSA/Flight Following (and I see value in this service and normally I think I will use it). Does it help if I already file a VFR flight plan so they know which waypoints to direct me to as I get passed between control stations?
Click to expand...
ATC never sees VFR flight plans. That's something that's only between FSS and search&rescue.
 
Larry in TN said:
The "Cleared to [fix/airport]" phraseology would indicate an IFR clearance. That won't be used with VFR traffic.
Click to expand...
Ah, so "Cleared via..."?
(I haven't done much VFR departures out of class C airports since getting IFR)
 
Yeah, I feel like TRSAs are often given short shrift in PPL training because they're not all over the place and don't come up on tests much. I've heard of instructors saying "don't worry about it; a TRSA basically acts like a class C if you opt in to it, or you can ignore it." Which is almost true, but I would rephrase as "it acts just like a class C, unless you opt out of it."

If you take off from a TRSA airport, they're going to assume you want all services, and if you contact approach flying towards one, they're going to assume you want to participate. (And for good reason, because if/when you're used to working in the ATC system, you probably will.) I consider it kind of like getting a handoff from one flight following sector to another -- you don't have to take the handoff, you can always decline it, but unless you speak up ATC will (for good reason) assume you want it.
 
asicer said:
Ah, so "Cleared via..."?
(I haven't done much VFR departures out of class C airports since getting IFR)
Click to expand...
VFR from Class C/TRSA are departure instructions, not clearances. So, you won't hear the word "cleared." Instead expect the route, altitude, frequency, and transponder code to be prefaced by, "on departure..."
 
You're lucky you get a beacon code and a departure frequency from a Class D tower. Around here you would have to ask for them and the controllers have to make a phone call to TRACON to get it. The other controllers have already answered your questions so I have nothing to add other than at a lot of non-busy airports or when the controllers aren't busy, CD and ground control are the same controller. That's how it is all the time where I work only its the same frequency for ground and CD. Its not that we're not busy, that's just how it is.
 
Tom Wells said:
I just finished a flight from KAZO to KDPA an hour ago and flight went great (aside from frigid 0 F temps). There was one hiccup and that was my communication with KAZO on the ground. Was hoping someone could help me understand the procedure and what to expect?

Let me walk through radio comms and then ask question...
Me: "KZOO Ground, Arrow 5042T at Duncan Aviation requesting VFR to the south with information X-Ray"
Ground: "Arrow 42T, KZOO ground say destination"
Me *confused why they're asking me this*: "... DuPage Airport KDPA... "
*5 seconds pass
Me: "*... via Goshen KGSH" (realizing I don't want them to think I'm flying across lake MI)
Ground: "Arrow 42T, what altitude"
Me: *confused again* "About 2000ish to start" (yes I actually said "-ish" I think... since I'm dumb)
Ground: "Arrow 5042T clear at or below 2500 feet maintain VFR at all times. Contact departure on XXX.XX"
*silence for about 60 seconds*
Me: *super confused* "KZOO ground do I contact departure for taxi clearance?"
Ground: "Taxi RWY 35 via C/A cross 5 hold short 27"
**went fine after this**

To be honest, I stumbled like an idiot on comms during this b/c I wasn't expectation any questions back to me. But I guess my question to someone more experienced is:
1) Is it normal for me to have to ask ground for my taxi communication in a follow-up message? I assume I'm not supposed to contact departure while I'm still on the ground for taxi... I'm used to getting my ground instructions on rwy/twy/cross/hold-short/etc from ground after my initial call. But I had to call them again. Is that normal?
2) I'm based at a Class D airport and always have been, so I'm accustomed to flying in/out of these airports, but I've never had them ask me my destination/waypoint before. I'm guessing this is because of TRSA service so departure knows where to point me? Not that I should do this, but could I tell them I don't want TRSA service before I even take off?
3) They automatically passed me off to South Bend approach when exiting TRSA area. I told South Bend approach I wanted to terminate flight following (and they acknowledged). Is that appropriate for me to do? Could I have done that with the TRSA before they passed me off?
4) While talking with TRSA I noticed I was the only person reading back instructions (e.g., 42T left turn towards Goshen) and then I read back. Everyone else was silent. They would say "Citation ABC descend and maintain 9000....." or "Hawker turn 320 heading and climb to 12000" (but no repeat of instruction). Just curious, should I have been verbally acknowledging his instructions -- or is it just sort of implied that you're listening? Or are they talking back to him on a different frequency?

Any recommendations/answers are appreciated so that hopefully next time I can be a little more competent talking to ATC! (and to any pilots at KAZO or ATC members who had the misfortune of hearing me stumble on the radio today, I'm sorry!)
Click to expand...

Read AIM 3-5-6. The part of Chapter referenced in paragraph c. is 4-1-18 b.
Typically a controller will say "departure frequency will be ###.##" instead of what that controller did. You taxi with Ground and get cleared for takeoff from the Tower as usual. When Tower says contact Departure, you already have the frequency.
 
Timbeck2 said:
You're lucky you get a beacon code and a departure frequency from a Class D tower. Around here you would have to ask for them and the controllers have to make a phone call to TRACON to get it. The other controllers have already answered your questions so I have nothing to add other than at a lot of non-busy airports or when the controllers aren't busy, CD and ground control are the same controller. That's how it is all the time where I work only its the same frequency for ground and CD. Its not that we're not busy, that's just how it is.
Click to expand...

How many TRSAs does Arizona have?
 
It sounds like
Tom Wells said:
KZOO Ground, Arrow 5042T at Duncan Aviation requesting VFR to the south
Click to expand...

Was heard as "requesting VFR flight following" so the controller asked for the remaining information.

Someone else got in to CRAFT vs RAFT vs AFT: Normally VFR FF would just be AFT, but some places like KFUL you get RAFT because the LOA specifies turnouts to where SoCal will be picking you up after departure. Sometimes I think the C should be in there for confirmation. There are three D's with "Fort Worth" in their names. KAFW, KFTW, KFWS. They're within 30nm of each other. Close enough to get the occasional "Bugdestroyer 666 - say destination" when it gets copied down wrong and your flightpath no longer goes where they thought you were going.
 
dmspilot said:
How many TRSAs does Arizona have?
Click to expand...
Zippo.

The TRSAs are MXF (Alabama), FSM (Arkansas), FAI (Alaska), PSP (California), AGS, MCN, WRB (Georgia), RFD (Illinois), lCH, MLU (Louisiana), AZO, MKB, MBS (Michigan), GPT (Mississippi), GTF (Montana), BLM, ELM, RME (New York), ILM (North Carolina), FAR (North Dakota), ERI, MDT (Pennsylvania), TRI (Virginia/Tennesee), BPT, GGG (Texas), and HTS (Ohio/Kentucky,West Virginia.

I've hit the MDT TRI, AZO, and ILM ones. I also few in the COS and IAD ones before they got subsumed into class C and B airspaces respectively.
 
Indeed, BGM as in BinGhaMton, Formerly Broome County. I've even been there once (on the airlines). I interviewed with GE in Endicott (when they were building the 767 avionics).
 
flyingron said:
Zippo.

The TRSAs are MXF (Alabama), FSM (Arkansas), FAI (Alaska), PSP (California), AGS, MCN, WRB (Georgia), RFD (Illinois), lCH, MLU (Louisiana), AZO, MKB, MBS (Michigan), GPT (Mississippi), GTF (Montana), BLM, ELM, RME (New York), ILM (North Carolina), FAR (North Dakota), ERI, MDT (Pennsylvania), TRI (Virginia/Tennesee), BPT, GGG (Texas), and HTS (Ohio/Kentucky,West Virginia.

I've hit the MDT TRI, AZO, and ILM ones. I also few in the COS and IAD ones before they got subsumed into class C and B airspaces respectively.
Click to expand...
You missed YNG in Ohio.
 
flyingron said:
Zippo.
Click to expand...

So he's talking out his *** in other words.

Order 7110.65:
7-7-7
a. At controlled airports within the TRSA, inform a departing aircraft proposing to operate within the TRSA when to contact departure control and the frequency to use. If the aircraft is properly equipped, ground control or clearance delivery must issue the appropriate beacon code.
NOTE-
Departing aircraft are assumed to want TRSA service unless the pilot states, “negative TRSA service,” or makes a similar comment. Pilots are expected to inform the controller of intended destination and/or route of flight and altitude.
 
MKG in Michigan, not MKB.

"VFR at [altitude] to the south, no need for flight following" would have made the rest of the conversation non-existent.

But if you did, you get to then talk to Great Lakes Approach, not Kalamazoo Approach. Everything went to GLA last June or June 2019 maybe with Muskegon, Saginaw, Grand Rapids, Lansing, and Kalamazoo approach going bye-bye and consolidated into GLA. Since they did that, the default....ahem....approach....it to treat everyone like like it's a Class C. Now in Michigan the only approach/departure is Detroit and Great Lakes, but we still get to talk to 3 centers. :D
 
EdFred said:
MKG in Michigan, not MKB.

"VFR at [altitude] to the south, no need for flight following" would have made the rest of the conversation non-existent.

But if you did, you get to then talk to Great Lakes Approach, not Kalamazoo Approach. Everything went to GLA last June or June 2019 maybe with Muskegon, Saginaw, Grand Rapids, Lansing, and Kalamazoo approach going bye-bye and consolidated into GLA. Since they did that, the default....ahem....approach....it to treat everyone like like it's a Class C. Now in Michigan the only approach/departure is Detroit and Great Lakes, but we still get to talk to 3 centers. :D
Click to expand...

We still have Toledo approach too. Just south west of Detroit you will get handed off to Toledo then Great Lakes going west. Contact Toledo approach 134.35.
 
And you get South Bend Approach in the southwest corner also. But as far as tracon facilities in the state, its just the two of em now.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Easy there cowboy. I was talking about Arizona.
Click to expand...

You addressed OP and stated he was "lucky" that his controller followed the required procedure.

The thread is about TRSAs and you made a comment about airports that aren't TRSAs.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Did you also note that I said "around here"? Then you accused me of talking out my ***.
Click to expand...

Did you expect us to know at the time that you posted your comment that you were talking about non-TRSA airports in a thread about TRSA airports?
 
Ohmygod!!! Someone wrote an unclear post! Think of the children!!! ;) :D
 
flyingron said:
Zippo.

The TRSAs are MXF (Alabama), FSM (Arkansas), FAI (Alaska), PSP (California), AGS, MCN, WRB (Georgia), RFD (Illinois), lCH, MLU (Louisiana), AZO, MKB, MBS (Michigan), GPT (Mississippi), GTF (Montana), BLM, ELM, RME (New York), ILM (North Carolina), FAR (North Dakota), ERI, MDT (Pennsylvania), TRI (Virginia/Tennesee), BPT, GGG (Texas), and HTS (Ohio/Kentucky,West Virginia.

I've hit the MDT TRI, AZO, and ILM ones. I also few in the COS and IAD ones before they got subsumed into class C and B airspaces respectively.
Click to expand...

There's also a TRSA for Altus, OK (LTS).
 
I was based at Great Falls, MT (GTF) for 7 years. The only times I ever heard anyone decline radar services were when someone would take off and head to a farm field under the TRSA shelf with a Super Cub or a spray plane.
 
TRSA airports assume you want services. Most, if not all, vastly prefer you be talking to approach before talking to tower inbound. I'm pretty surprised you weren't taught about this in training, given that you are near-ish TRSA service.
 
N1120A said:
TRSA airports assume you want services. Most, if not all, vastly prefer you be talking to approach before talking to tower inbound. I'm pretty surprised you weren't taught about this in training, given that you are near-ish TRSA service.
Click to expand...

Yeah. But I overheard a CFI telling a student about TRSA’s once who didn’t have a clue.
 
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