Private Pilot Moving an Airplane?

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tacobob101

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tacobob101
I have my private pilot license but not my commercial certificate. My friend owns his own plane and wants me to move it from one city to another in the SE of the US. Am I able to fly this plane by myself without being considered a commercial pilot. Also, do I need to pay any of the expenses out of my own pocket? My friend is not paying me for my time but I would like him to pick up any landing fees and gas for the trip? Should I take it?
 
Technically not legal.

But I think the FAA needs to butt out of what happens between two people who have a longstanding relationship outside of aviation.
 
You have to shell out for gas and any fees, and should do it anyway. What a great excuse to fly! So long as you're rated for the aircraft and the conditions you're good to go.
 
steingar said:
What's not legal about a pilot flying an aircraft between two airports?
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Quid Pro Quo.

There's a difference between, "Hey, here's the keys to my plane, fly it whenever or wherever you want," and "I need you to fly my plane from ABC to XYZ." The former is legal, the latter is not with only a private.

Of course that's only if someone complains to the FAA.
 
Quid Pro Quo.

There's a difference between, "Hey, here's the keys to my plane, fly it whenever or wherever you want," and "I need you to fly my plane from ABC to XYZ." The former is legal, the latter is not with only a private.

Of course that's only if someone complains to the FAA.




I just don't want to show up for a check ride down the road and have the examiner tell me that it was not legal to log the hours. I don't really think anyone will ever complain.
 
EdFred said:
Quid Pro Quo.

There's a difference between, "Hey, here's the keys to my plane, fly it whenever or wherever you want," and "I need you to fly my plane from ABC to XYZ." The former is legal, the latter is not with only a private.

Of course that's only if someone complains to the FAA.
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If the OP pays for the gas/fees, then no problem, right?

And then a week later his bud hands him a nice stack of greenbacks just because he's a swell guy!
 
EdFred said:
Quid Pro Quo.

There's a difference between, "Hey, here's the keys to my plane, fly it whenever or wherever you want," and "I need you to fly my plane from ABC to XYZ." The former is legal, the latter is not with only a private.

Of course that's only if someone complains to the FAA.
Click to expand...

I dunno if that even cuts it. If the fellow isn't getting paid, what's the difference. Am I violating a FAR when Mrs. Steingar asks me to fly us to Ann Arbor?

(I know I'm violating the laws of good sense if we do that, but not the FARs)
 
steingar said:
What's not legal about a pilot flying an aircraft between two airports?
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To be legal the expenses would at least be split equally...

Butthe way I see it, the friend just being a great guy happens to buy you lunch, dinner, whatever outside of the flight then ;) follow the thought here
 
Bill Jennings said:
If the OP pays for the gas/fees, then no problem, right?

And then a week later his bud hands him a nice stack of greenbacks just because he's a swell guy!
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Someone at the GC said that "goodwill" and flight hours count as compensation. Doing your buddy a favor constituted goodwill. Yeah, they want their nose in everything.
 
But, 14 CFR 61.113(c) only prohibits less than pro-rata contribution for a flight with passengers.

That would seem to cover it if it's flown solo. Of course, if the OP isn't PIC, he doesn't have to pay a dime.
 
steingar said:
I dunno if that even cuts it. If the fellow isn't getting paid, what's the difference. Am I violating a FAR when Mrs. Steingar asks me to fly us to Ann Arbor?

(I know I'm violating the laws of good sense if we do that, but not the FARs)
Click to expand...

I don't know if the FAA views a married couple as a single entity or not. But there was a case a while back where sharing expenses between a married couple (one on business, one riding along) was ruled pretty much the opposite of what you think it should be.
 
tacobob101 said:
I just don't want to show up for a check ride down the road and have the examiner tell me that it was not legal to log the hours. I don't really think anyone will ever complain.
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That won't come up unless you put something up in the logbook saying as such.
 
MAKG1 said:
But, 14 CFR 61.113(c) only prohibits less than pro-rata contribution for a flight with passengers.

That would seem to cover it if it's flown solo. Of course, if the OP isn't PIC, he doesn't have to pay a dime.
Click to expand...

It falls under compensation/hire section, not sharing.
 
EdFred said:
Someone at the GC said that "goodwill" and flight hours count as compensation. Doing your buddy a favor constituted goodwill. Yeah, they want their nose in everything.
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So the "free" flight hours are compensation? Blows.
 
EdFred said:
I don't know if the FAA views a married couple as a single entity or not. But there was a case a while back where sharing expenses between a married couple (one on business, one riding along) was ruled pretty much the opposite of what you think it should be.
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Reference please?
 
tacobob101 said:
I have my private pilot license but not my commercial certificate. My friend owns his own plane and wants me to move it from one city to another in the SE of the US.
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You framed the question the wrong way. Here is the right way to frame the question so you dont have to worry about the answer:

I have the opportunity to borrow my friends airplane. I was planning to fly it from Z to Y, what are good BBQ places somewhere along that route.

Anything else surrounding this flight is irrelevant and between you and your friend at the next opportunity. Just dont crash.
 
tacobob101 said:
I just don't want to show up for a check ride down the road and have the examiner tell me that it was not legal to log the hours. I don't really think anyone will ever complain.
Click to expand...

So just don't log it. That problem is solved.

Whatever you choose to do, make sure that the owner's insurance will cover you as PIC sole occupant.

-Skip
 
Bill Jennings said:
So the "free" flight hours are compensation? Blows.
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The FAA has consistently construed compensation broadly. Compensation "does not require a profit, a profit motive, or the actual payment of funds." Legal Interpretation to Joseph Kirwan (May 27,2005). Rather, compensation is the receipt of anything of value. The FAA has previously found that reimbursement of expenses (fuel, oil, transportation, lodging, meals, etc.), accumulation of flight time, and goodwill in the form of expected future economic benefit could be considered compensation. Legal Interpretation to John W. Harrington (Oct. 23, 1997); Blakey v. Murray, NTSB Order No. EA-5061 (Oct. 28, 2003).
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From here:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...013/hancock - (2013) legal interpretation.pdf
 
Skip Miller said:
So just don't log it. That problem is solved.

Whatever you choose to do, make sure that the owner's insurance will cover you as PIC sole occupant.

-Skip
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Which is probably the bigger issue.
 
tacobob101 said:
So your saying I should just not log the time?
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I don't think he is saying that. I think he is saying don't write anything in the logbook about the purpose of the flight, or who paid for what.

Although there are interpretations that say that logged flight time can be considered compensation, I don't see why it would come up at a future checkride if you just logged the basic stuff, e.g., tail number, type, airport identifiers, hours flown, etc.
 
tacobob101 said:
I have my private pilot license but not my commercial certificate. My friend owns his own plane and wants me to move it from one city to another in the SE of the US. Am I able to fly this plane by myself without being considered a commercial pilot.
Click to expand...
Yes, provided...
Also, do I need to pay any of the expenses out of my own pocket?
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...you pay all your expenses, including the direct cost of the flight (mainly the fuel).

My friend is not paying me for my time but I would like him to pick up any landing fees and gas for the trip?
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Legally, your friend can't pay you anything at all. Nothing. Zip, zilch, nada, nil.

Should I take it?
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Sure -- as long as you pay all your own expenses including the direct cost of the flight as defined in 14 CFR 61.113(c) ("fuel, oil, airport expenditures", the latter being things like landing and parking fees). Anything else would be a quid pro quo in return for your providing this valuable service in violation of that section of the regulations.
 
EdFred said:
Quid Pro Quo.

There's a difference between, "Hey, here's the keys to my plane, fly it whenever or wherever you want," and "I need you to fly my plane from ABC to XYZ." The former is legal, the latter is not with only a private.

Of course that's only if someone complains to the FAA.
Click to expand...
There is no difference, period. The only thing that changes if nobody complains is that you didn't get caught breaking the rules -- which you did break regardless of whether or not you were caught.
 
tacobob101 said:
I just don't want to show up for a check ride down the road and have the examiner tell me that it was not legal to log the hours. I don't really think anyone will ever complain.
Click to expand...
Is your question whether or not it's legal, or whether or not you'll get in trouble? There is absolutely no question that it's not legal for you to make this flight if you receive any compensation whatsoever, or if you do not pay the direct cost of the flight entirely by yourself. OTOH, if you're asking whether you can get away with it, I suppose that depends on whether someone who cares about it finds out -- and that's beyond your control.

You have a clear choice here. You can decide that you'll play by the rules of aviation, or you can decide that you're only going to obey those rules when you think you'd get in trouble if you didn't. The operative word is "integrity" -- do you have it, or not?
 
steingar said:
I dunno if that even cuts it. If the fellow isn't getting paid, what's the difference. Am I violating a FAR when Mrs. Steingar asks me to fly us to Ann Arbor?

(I know I'm violating the laws of good sense if we do that, but not the FARs)
Click to expand...
Assuming you're paying for the flight, you can fly Mrs. Steingar anywhere she likes and that's fine with the FAA.
 
vfsit said:
To be legal the expenses would at least be split equally...
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...between everyone in the plane with a common purpose for the flight (see 61.113(c)). Since the owner won't be in the plane, that doesn't work. And even if the owner goes along, the OP lacks common purpose for the flight, and so cannot share the expenses, but must pay them all.
 
EdFred said:
Someone at the GC said that "goodwill" and flight hours count as compensation. Doing your buddy a favor constituted goodwill. Yeah, they want their nose in everything.
Click to expand...
First, goodwill is only an issue if there is a business relationship between the two parties, not when they are merely friends. Second, the flight hours don't count as compensation if you paid for them yourself (i.e., you paid the direct cost of the flight).
 
MAKG1 said:
But, 14 CFR 61.113(c) only prohibits less than pro-rata contribution for a flight with passengers.
Click to expand...
...and it sounds like there are none, so the OP has to pay the entire direct cost personally.

That would seem to cover it if it's flown solo. Of course, if the OP isn't PIC, he doesn't have to pay a dime.
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There is nothing requiring passengers to pay anything, so if the OP merely rides along, the OP need not pay anything. But if the OP is doing the flying, the OP has to pay for the flight time.
 
EdFred said:
I don't know if the FAA views a married couple as a single entity or not. But there was a case a while back where sharing expenses between a married couple (one on business, one riding along) was ruled pretty much the opposite of what you think it should be.
Click to expand...
If you're speaking of Mangiamele, the issue was not married couples sharing expenses, but rather the Private Pilot being reimbursed by his employer for flying with a passenger -- something which the FAA Chief Counsel has determined is prohibited under 14 CFR 61.113(b).
 
Fly the airplane ,log the time. The examiner , when he checks your log book ,doesn't ask if the plane was rented,or who owned it. Leave the remarks section blank.
 
tacobob101 said:
So your saying I should just not log the time?
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I don't know for sure what Ed's saying, but I'm saying that in the view of the FAA Chief Counsel, if you provide this pilot service in return for any compensation at all (including expense money of any amount), you're violating 14 CFR 61.113 whether you log the time or not.
 
Skip Miller said:
So just don't log it. That problem is solved.
Click to expand...
That does not solve the legal problem if the aircraft owner paid even one dime of the expenses.

Whatever you choose to do, make sure that the owner's insurance will cover you as PIC sole occupant.
Click to expand...
... and as an additional insured, too, unless you have your own non-owned aircraft insurance policy.
 
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