Primary Training - J3 Cub Style

AggieMike88

AggieMike88

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
20,805
Location
Denton, TX
Display Name
Display name:
The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
During lunch, discussion turned to Piper Cubs and using them for primary training to today's recreational student pilot.

General consensus it was an interesting idea and do-able if the mass of the student and CFI didn't blow out the W&B numbers. Someone also pointed out that it might be a solution for those that want LSA training.

Thoughts? Discussion? Arguments Pro and Con?
Confirm that it could cover both LSA & PPL training?
 
The airport where I am doing my Tailwheel Endorsement uses Champs and J-3's as primary trainers for both Private and Sport pilots almost exclusively.

Since we trained the WWII Military Flying Forces starting with J-3's, why not?

(except the population size has ballooned:D)

Cheers
 
I'd be more worried about going over gross in a C-150/152 than a Cub. In any event, the only issue is whether or not you have the necessary radios -- demonstration of comm and electronic nav are required for PP.

As for Sport Pilot and Private Pilot, you can do either or both in a Cub (the PP radio issues notwithstanding), but if know at the start you want PP, there's no reason to go through the Sport stage en route -- just adds additional written and practical tests to the operation.
 
Ron Levy said:
there's no reason to go through the Sport stage en route -- just adds additional written and practical tests to the operation.
Click to expand...

Good to know about that.

If Denton Flying club went this direction, we'd make sure to be clear on which certificate (Sport or Private) the airman is seeking before starting.

Also good to know about the radios. Makes sense, and is hopefully an easy item to rectify if needed. (just money, right? :rolleyes: )
 
AggieMike88 said:
Good to know about that.

If Denton Flying club went this direction, we'd make sure to be clear on which certificate (Sport or Private) the airman is seeking before starting.

Also good to know about the radios. Makes sense, and is hopefully an easy item to rectify if needed. (just money, right? :rolleyes: )
Click to expand...
it's most easily rectified by doing a few flights in a plane with radios. Odds are you want them to have some exposure to those strange nosedrager planes anyway. I know of one CFI that does most training in a champ but has an ifr-panel tri-pacer for the radio and hood work
 
Will the LSP be able to use a CFI that will allow them to continue on for PPL.

That was the route I went, and glad I did. It allowed me and the Ms.'s to fly while I continued on for the PPL.

:yes::yes:
 
What's the fuel burn on J3 Cubs?

Is mogas an option?
 
AggieMike88 said:
Also good to know about the radios. Makes sense, and is hopefully an easy item to rectify if needed. (just money, right? :rolleyes: )
Click to expand...
There is nothing explicit saying the radios must be installed for this VFR operation, so some DPE's will accept hand-held nav/comms (including hand-held GPS for the nav part) for a PP-A practical test. Others won't, and there is nothing in writing which you can use to force them to accept hand-helds. Make sure you know which way the local DPE leans before you make any commitments to rely on hand-helds.
 
The newer Legend Cubs solves the radio/Nav issue, and they are LSA.
They just announced completing testing on a Super Legend Cub, using the new Lyc LSA engine and meeting LSA Max GW requirements.
 
AggieMike88 said:
During lunch, discussion turned to Piper Cubs and using them for primary training to today's recreational student pilot.

General consensus it was an interesting idea and do-able if the mass of the student and CFI didn't blow out the W&B numbers. Someone also pointed out that it might be a solution for those that want LSA training.

Thoughts? Discussion? Arguments Pro and Con?
Confirm that it could cover both LSA & PPL training?
Click to expand...
Mike,

Sorry I couldn't stop, but I was in Denton Saturday and today...

A PP or a SP student can start out in a Cub, but would have to fly one with an electrical system for night flights, and for the instrument and electronic navigation requirements. I don't think that's a huge obstacle, but the biggest issue is then when you start to slap electronics (oh, and starters, too) on them, they start to get heavy.
Fuel burn on a 65 hp Cub is going to be about 4 gph...
The Legend, or Sport Cub route is an option, although there are other similar options as well.
I've done some of this, and it can work if you do it right.

Ryan
 
Ron Levy said:
With the original A-65 engine, yes.
Click to expand...

You're not limited only to the A-65, and you still need an STC to run legally. EAA and Petersen have autogas STCs for Cubs and lots of other airplanes and various engine models. But the STC is invalid with ethanol blends. Non-ethanol gas is still around, but getting harder to find. I ran autogas 10 years ago in my Champ w/ the Petersen STC and never had issues with it. That was some cheap flying back then. Though with autogas, you want to burn through it fast enough so it doesn't break down. Not an issue with Avgas.
 
The only hurdle would be the lack of the electrical system on many of them, this would add some additional transition training, but would leave you "checked out" in two kinds of planes to start and a TW endorsement.

So it might add some extra time to it, but you would get something for it
 
The guy at our gliderport (KHXF) does all of his primary instruction in J3s. He then puts them in a Cherokee 140 for the Radio/Class C/night flying portion of the training. Seems to work out well.

Check out Cub Air in Hartford.
 
vontresc said:
The guy at our gliderport (KHXF) does all of his primary instruction in J3s. He then puts them in a Cherokee 140 for the Radio/Class C/night flying portion of the training. Seems to work out well.

Check out Cub Air in Hartford.
Click to expand...

That's where I'm based. Did all my Sport in the Cubs, now finishing up my Private in my 150. They are very busy. John Livingston instructed me for my first 15 or so hours.
 
Skylane81E said:
The only hurdle would be the lack of the electrical system on many of them, this would add some additional transition training, but would leave you "checked out" in two kinds of planes to start and a TW endorsement.

So it might add some extra time to it, but you would get something for it
Click to expand...

Not remotely a hurdle, and takes less than 10 minutes for someone to explain and demonstrate proper and safe hand-propping procedures.

For the PPL, you can do everything except for VOR navigation, hood work, and night landings in a Cub. Can do all the rest in 3 flights in a C-150. I even brought two airplanes to my checkride - Champ and C-150.

Thousands of people learned to fly in J-3s. It's not an exotic concept. :) About the best trainer there is. It's not just an old cliche - they really do hammer home basic stick-and-rudder flying skills much better than the "modern" trainers. Lots of pilots these days could use a good dose of Cub flying for this purpose.
 
Last edited:
I learned to fly in a J3 but the problem nowadays is that there just aren't that many available for rental/instruction. They also carry a substantial nostalgia premium so the cost of a Cub is a bit out of line compared to it's main contemporary competition which was the Champ. So, for about half the price, you could be using a Champ rather than a Cub and it would be much more comfortable, especially for the instructor.
 
whifferdill said:
they really do hammer home basic stick-and-rudder flying skills much better than the "modern" trainers. Lots of pilots these days could use a good dose of Cub flying for this purpose.
Click to expand...

This, in addition to it covering the LSA needs of our group, was my contribution to the conversation.

(says the guy who needs to go get his TW endorsement)
 
AggieMike88 said:
During lunch, discussion turned to Piper Cubs and using them for primary training to today's recreational student pilot.

...
Click to expand...

I did my primary training a J-3 cub with no electrical system at all. This was the single best thing that ever happened to me in aviation.

The J-3 is almost certainly the best primary trainer ever made. Learn in a J-3 and you learn what flight controls really do, in a safe and sane way.

As far as radios, the fewer the better for the first ten hours.

When I'm King of Aviation every pilot will be required to log at least ten hours in a no radio J-3 flying off of grass before he or she is ever allowed to fly any other airplane. The J-3 is that good!

Edited to add:

During that first ten hours I will require one flight where the student will familiarize with recovering from a two turn spin.
 
Last edited:
I think 30hrs in a Cub and 10hrs in a newer trainer (150, etc.) is a reasonable approach. Just focus on VORs, electronics during that 10 hour period. The Cub guy will understand adverse yaw, crosswind techniques and dead reckoning better than the 150 pilot when he is done.

AggieMike88 said:
Also good to know about the radios. Makes sense, and is hopefully an easy item to rectify if needed. (just money, right? :rolleyes: )
Click to expand...

A handheld, a 12v sealed battery and an external antenna can be had for probably $300 if you have someone who knows how to do it. Well worth it IMO. That is what I have in the Piet. The 15amp*hr battery will run the GPS and handheld for 3 to 6 months of flying between charges. With the external antenna I have been able to talk air to air up to 125NM.

Of course, the Piet is an experimental and my antenna is made of a brass brazing rod, so I was able to do the antenna a little cheaper that it might be in a Cub. I don't know the legal requirements for putting an antenna on the outside of a cub, but it shouldn't be a big deal. With a handheld antenna, range will be limited to 5 to 10 miles.
 
I suspect the insurance would be much higher than the more traditional options which would be difficult to recover in rental fees.
 
jesse said:
Do they do primary training and allow students to solo it and do they provide insurance?
Click to expand...

I can't answer you on the insurance question, the school just got new owners. Almost all students solo the Cub. I did my dual cross country in the morning, and my solo cross country that same afternoon. Private students had to do at least 10 hours in the Cub, but I'm not sure if they were required to solo it. The old owner also required students to at least experience one spin in the Cub. All Sport training was in the Cub. Took my wife up a few days in a Cub right after I passed my checkride.
 
Insurance is high... but volume would make it bearable. Been there with the Taylorcraft, which by the way I think along with the Champ is just as good as the Cub for the job.

Sent from my SPH-M840 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 
RyanShort1 said:
Insurance is high... but volume would make it bearable. Been there with the Taylorcraft, which by the way I think along with the Champ is just as good as the Cub for the job.

Sent from my SPH-M840 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Click to expand...

Flying both the Champ and J-3 and prefer the Champ.

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
Flying both the Champ and J-3 and prefer the Champ.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Will add Champ to the list of potentials... Found a nice example on Controller.com located near Denton, TX that might be worth going to see to learn more about them.
 
I like the Chief better(I'm a yoke guy), but the Champ is roomier for dual instruction because of the tandem seating.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Will add Champ to the list of potentials... Found a nice example on Controller.com located near Denton, TX that might be worth going to see to learn more about them.
Click to expand...

Some people (me for one) like the Champ since it is flown solo from the front seat and usually the instructor rides in back during dual. Others prefer the reverse in a J-3.

Cheers
 
jesse said:
I suspect the insurance would be much higher than the more traditional options which would be difficult to recover in rental fees.
Click to expand...

Hampton airfield(NH) starts everyone in a cub til solo then onto a C-172 for XC and the Checkride. As a renter I needed my own renters insurance, no idea if students need it or not.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Hampton airfield(NH) starts everyone in a cub til solo then onto a C-172 for XC and the Checkride. As a renter I needed my own renters insurance, no idea if students need it or not.
Click to expand...

I rented the Cubs at Hampton NH back in 1982. Most of the same cubs are still there. I remember they cautioned me to have renters insurance to cover the entire hull value.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top