Premature Solo?

F

farmrjohn

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Messages
453
Display Name
Display name:
farmrjohn
I wonder if she is/was on the way to an airline cockpit? Tower did a good job with a successful outcome at least.

ATC Audio
 
Once fear appears, the confidence disappears. I’ve been in that instructor’s shoes before with a student that had a change of winds and was having trouble with the round out and keeping it on the centerline. It all worked out well.
 
TrueCourse said:
Once fear appears, the confidence disappears.
Click to expand...
Well said.

To me this is a textbook case of FAA's hazardous attitudes: resignation specifically. I don't want to know how the pilot would have performed if there wasn't someone to talk her down. Good work by controllers and the instructor in keeping things positive and on the rails.
 
Wow. Great job by the controller. Kinda interesting to hear the instructor, however. I think I would be doing a lot more of "remember what you learned", "you're doing great", "you got this", "pitch for airspeed", "power for altitude", "looking good", "you can do this" sort of thing.

And maybe forget the call sign and call the student by name? Reconnect with the student. Seemed kinda cold. Not sure how much help the instructor was during this episode.

The instructor seemed kinda young as well. Not second guessing the decision for solo, but when I soloed, my instructor (my dad) let me do lots of laps while not saying a thing, not touching a thing, and not pointing at anything. Just passenged. When the student doesn't need the instructor at all during a bunch of TO's and L's, then the student is ready to solo. And maybe that's what happened, and the student freaked anyway. I don't know, but it does seem like she was a long way from being prepared to solo.
 
Last edited:
Well at least this ended better than the one in Quebec City, rumor that was also a student pilot. I see a lot of instructors soloing students too early and then using a handheld radio as a crutch.
 
Would there be any repercussions/investigation from the FAA for the CFI or student?
 
dmspilot said:
Well at least this ended better than the one in Quebec City, rumor that was also a student pilot. I see a lot of instructors soloing students too early and then using a handheld radio as a crutch.
Click to expand...
I was just in Quebec and saw that in a local (Francophone) newspaper. Brought it back to hang in my office.
 
jimhorner said:
Not sure how much help the instructor was during this episode.
Click to expand...
Yeah. That came across clear. The controller was a Hero. The student pilot pulled it together with coaxing and was also a Hero. The instructor was absolutely a Zero.

fast99 said:
Would there be any repercussions/investigation from the FAA for the CFI or student?
Click to expand...
Hard to believe there would not be an investigation of sorts. This clearly was an emergency. Priority was given. Traffic was held. If not for a great controller, this very easily could have ended up badly. Understood this is Canada and not the USA but with all that, it would not make sense for the Canadian equivalent of the FSDO not to be asking questions about what happened here.
 
jimhorner said:
Wow. Great job by the controller. Kinda interesting to hear the instructor, however. I think I would be doing a lot more of "remember what you learned", "you're doing great", "you got this", "pitch for airspeed", "power for altitude", "looking good", "you can do this" sort of thing.

And maybe forget the call sign and call the student by name? Reconnect with the student. Seemed kinda cold. Not sure how much help the instructor was during this episode.

The instructor seemed kinda young as well. Not second guessing the decision for solo, but when I soloed, my instructor (my dad) let me do lots of laps while not saying a thing, not touching a thing, and not pointing at anything. Just passenged. When the student doesn't need the instructor at all during a bunch of TO's and L's, then the student is ready to solo. And maybe that's what happened, and the student freaked anyway. I don't know, but it does seem like she was a long way from being prepared to solo.
Click to expand...
Yeah that was very strange, instructor gets on the frequency and starts calling her by the tail # with no emotion as if she's another controller, in a situation like this I'd make it personal just like you suggested and help calm her down and walk her through it. But I'm not a CFI and this did have a positive outcome so who am I to argue. Controller was excellent.

Personally though if I were that student I'd be seriously reconsidering whether to continue training at all. As someone else mentioned, how would this have turned out if she was at an uncontrolled field with no instructor on the freq? To a degree you can chalk it up to inexperience/not being ready, but that level of panic/resignation is rare even in low time students and I'm not sure it's something that experience will necessarily solve with a potentially fatal result.
 
My take is that the instructor couldn't hear the student, and really had no idea what was actually happening. But I could be wrong.
 
TrueCourse said:
Once fear appears, the confidence disappears. I’ve been in that instructor’s shoes before with a student that had a change of winds and was having trouble with the round out and keeping it on the centerline. It all worked out well.
Click to expand...

I always teach students there are two types of fear.

Healthy fear, the type of fear that should exist and keep you from doing something stupid or exceeding your limitations. Flying into possible thunderstorms, start to pick up ice, etc. But the logical thinking still prevails and the pilot can make competent devisions.

the the unhealthy fear. This is the fear that overpowers and will resuls Are disasterous. I explain about how students when teaching to stall go in panic mode when they are are only pitching up and not even close to stall speed, or banking more than 20 or 30 degrees and the pilots fear kicks and they lose all logical thought and panic.
 
Salty said:
My take is that the instructor couldn't hear the student, and really had no idea what was actually happening. But I could be wrong.
Click to expand...
But even saying that, it seems odd that she never asked over the radio what the situation was.
 
jimhorner said:
however. I think I would be doing a lot more of "remember what you learned", "you're doing great", "you got this", "pitch for airspeed", "power for altitude", "looking good", "you can do this" sort of thing.
Click to expand...
The controller gave her the good solid encouragement that she needed. She didn't need a bunch of clichés.
 
geneseib said:
The controller gave her the good solid encouragement that she needed. She didn't need a bunch of clichés.
Click to expand...

I agree the controller did a great job.

I don't think the instructor added any value, and I personally do think that the young student would have benefited from hearing her familiar instructor's voice saying the same sort if things that the instructor (hopefully) used to say while sitting next to the student in the plane. Clearly the student was panicing, and hearing a calm familiar voice could have helped. Cliches or not, a familiar voice giving personal feedback and reassurance can be helpful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Pretty sure the reason that the instructor got on frequency is she heard the developing issue. Handhelds have very good receive on the ground. Think the student could not hear instructor as transmit with the crappy antenna's isn't great.
Having said that, the instructor was a robot. Use the student's name, tell her it's going to be OK. Adopt the same tone as the tower. Student was in full panic mode. Tower was great, student was never put in a full blown panic situation and instructor was a waste. Really only worked when Tower relayed flight instructions. Might have made more sense (in hindsight) to put instructor on ground and have tower provide the power/flap settings etc.
 
The tower controller deserves much more than a box of donuts. The instructor was totally unhelpful, and was probably intimidated by having to play ATC. This could have ended very badly. Unless the student stole the airplane and flew without permission, it is hard to imagine that the student was at fault here.
 
While I'm in the extreme early stages of PPL training, only recently has it has really stood out to me what an amazingly supportive community the aviation world is. Admittedly I didn't even think about how the ATC folks are a a big part of that as exemplified above.
 
Does Canada have any requirements for solo like FAR 61.87 or is this it?

"Once the Citizenship, Age, Medical, Fitness and Knowledge requirements have been met and evidence thereof presented to an Authorized Person, a Student Pilot Permit in the category applied for shall be issued. The instructor shall be responsible for ensuring that the applicant has reached a satisfactory standard of experience and skill to complete solo flight before authorizing the first solo flight."
 
I think you guys are mistaking the instructors help here. Without her - she may not have made a safe landing. The atc was great - we all agree. But just feeding some power and airspeed settings to a panicking student may have been critical to getting her down safely. Otherwise she could have been at too high a speed trying land. So while there are definitely places to criticize - i wouldn’t say the instructor was useless here
 
dmspilot said:
Does Canada have any requirements for solo like FAR 61.87 or is this it?

"Once the Citizenship, Age, Medical, Fitness and Knowledge requirements have been met and evidence thereof presented to an Authorized Person, a Student Pilot Permit in the category applied for shall be issued. The instructor shall be responsible for ensuring that the applicant has reached a satisfactory standard of experience and skill to complete solo flight before authorizing the first solo flight."
Click to expand...

In Canada, I had to write a pre-solo written test before my CFI would allow me to fly solo. I don't know if it's mandatory or if that was just my CFI's requirement though. I don't know the instructor but the student may have been fully capable of flying solo and just had a panic attack or low confidence moment for whatever reason. Can't blame the student obviously, but I also wouldn't want to blame the CFI, for all we know, she really thought the student was ready to go. Now, if the student expressed concerns prior to the solo and the CFI brushed it off, that would be a different story but we don't know that. When I came close to solo, I kept bugging my CFI to finally get out of the right seat because I was getting tired of the poor climb performance lol.
 
Wow. Controller went above and beyond on that one. Kept her calm and had enough sense to not have her turn while climbing out.

Those apologies seemed about a half step away from just giving up. Hope the successful landing leads to increased confidence and she flies again.

Wondering if they were having the students fly a cookie-cutter approach, specific power settings at specific distances, and outside a fully controlled environment the student could adjust. Just speculation, but based on her giving power settings rather than airspeed first, when the instructor wasn't sure where the student was. It was the controller that figured out she was too low, and instructed her to climb a bit to avoid being too low.
 
I find landing straight in from a 5 mile final way more challenging than setting up for a landing from down wind.
I realize the controller sent her miles out, to maybe collect her thoughts, but I wonder if directing her back into the circuit for a precautionary landing or a low and over, could have restored her confidence a bit.
 
The ATC guy was absolutely golden, we can all agree to that. If there were an Controller Of The Year award, this guy would be a very strong contender for it.

The instructor, I feel, also did a good job, and here's why. The student was in overload mode. The student was very busy beating herself up over what happened, apologizing, etc. By giving her distinct pitch / power commands at the end it relieved any need for processing for the student which can sometimes be beyond someone in this situation. I have seen this work in many situations. "Don't think, just follow my instructions". Further, this is the point the student was having trouble with, so it makes sense that the instructor would give her the settings in that situation. I don't see it as a case of "I need to add something, let me just throw something out" but as "This is where she was struggling, I'll help her w/ the numbers"

I also felt the instructor's tone was adequate to the situation. There was nothing there for the student's mind to push back against. She was not being overly nice ("You know she's only doing that because people are listening..."), nor angry, judgmental, condescending ("She is mad at me because I'm such a screw up...") So, while I would not necessarily put the instructor up for Instructor Of The Year, I feel it was a good response to the situation.
 
jimhorner said:
I agree the controller did a great job.

I don't think the instructor added any value, and I personally do think that the young student would have benefited from hearing her familiar instructor's voice saying the same sort if things that the instructor (hopefully) used to say while sitting next to the student in the plane. Clearly the student was panicing, and hearing a calm familiar voice could have helped. Cliches or not, a familiar voice giving personal feedback and reassurance can be helpful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...
All this Monday morning qbacking on the forum. There could be 10 differenet reasons the CFI didnt intervene as much, Radio, Difficulty seeing whats going on etc. last thing she needs is to see ya’ll tearing her appart on here. Dumping on the CFI … it comes off as paternalistic and condescending. I give her credit for not rambling on the radio and perhaps having the presence of mind to realize the controller was effective and not interfere with controller.

Also this was an emergency and once the controller is communicating you better stay the flip off the radio CFI or Pilotsofamerica counseling gurus

I remember years ago that my solo went fine but when I flew by myself the next day I was feeling a deep fear as I approached an airport to land. I knew it was not warranted and I focused and ignored the fear and landed… but I can see how that can spiral and how even a CFI may not realize a person is prone to….. its Panic really not fear!!!
 
People are not robots that can be analyzed with precision. When a CFI considers soloing a student, they can only assess the personality that has been revealed by the student at that point. You can’t know everything about that student and how they will react and very occasionally one gets by. If the instructor had a clue that she would’ve panicked like she did it would have been a “no way/not yet” sign.
I remember reading about a new private holder that messed up a buzz job over his girlfriend’s house. His level of maturity got by the CFI and examiner. No one is to blame but the pilot. Without the help of ATC and the CFI we would be reading about her on Kathryn’s report.
 
My primary instructor related an experience he had with a student. The student had no issues with their two dual XC flights. Everything went perfectly.

Signed off for solo XC. This was out of Cecil County (MD) airport to go down the Delmarva peninsula to something like to Ocean City to Easton then home. Student got to Ocean City and fueled the C-150. Flying to Easton, they decided they were lost.

Now, go look at a map. The Delmava peninsula is long and skinny. Hard to get lost. Fly east or west and in a short time you will see the ocean or the bay. Turn north and stay over land and you will be back in the home field local area.

But student decided they were lost, so decided on a precautionary landing. Ok. This was in winter, but one of the typical area warm spells when everything thaws and most ground is very soft or pure mud.

They landed in a bare field (mud) and then managed to high speed taxi (assumption was they went full throttle after touchdown) some 500 yards (IN MUD) until hitting a ditch. The assumption of full throttle was confirmed when the impact of the prop into the opposite bank caused the engine to twist itself out of the engine mount.

NO way to predict this. Student was excellent overall up to this point.
 
jimhorner said:
my instructor (my dad) let me do lots of laps while not saying a thing, not touching a thing, and not pointing at anything. Just passenged
Click to expand...
yeah, same. That's my strategy as well. Brief on the ground, get in the plane, and unless there's a violation or safety of flight issue I keep my mouth shut. Interesting to see how people change from very confident to "h*ly cr@p!" when the right seater goes silent..!
 
Brad Smith said:
You can’t know everything about that student and how they will react and very occasionally one gets by
Click to expand...
That's the scary part, right! All the prep work, stage checks, etc., ultimately when they solo that will be their first time in a plane completely alone.. you simply cannot 100% predict how they'll manage the stress, etc. I send all my people with another CFI first and make sure I get a few flights in where I don't say anything, I'm just a passenger
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top