Precision Runway Monitoring (PRM) approach

[AggieMike88]

I'm studying my Sheppard Air for the upcoming ATP Knowledge exam. I encountered this question:

Q: A Precision Runway Monitoring (PRM) approach may require require:

A: monitoring of two communication frequencies simultaneously.
​

Explanation:

See AIM chapter 5, section 4, and also see FAA-H-8261-1, page 6-7, Precision Runway Monitor.

"3. Dual Communications.  The aircraft flying the ILS/PRM or LDA/PRM approach must have the capability of enabling the pilot/s to listen to two communications frequencies simultaneously."
​

This is the first I have heard of such an approach.

Where might I encounter one? Has anyone here done one?

 

[woywoyboy]

I've certainly never done one, but from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_runway_monitor:

PRM is one type of radar system that can be used to allow simultaneous approaches on parallel runways that are spaced less than 1,310 metres (4,300 ft) to each other. Airports at which PRM is in use in the United States include Chicago-O'Hare, San Francisco, Detroit, and Atlanta. Internationally only Sydney, Australia uses PRM.​

 

[dmspilot]

Where might I encounter one? Has anyone here done one?

O'Hare. I get to do it in the simulator once a year.

 

[AggieMike88]

O'Hare. I get to do it in the simulator once a year.

hmmmm.... KORD is an airport I might get to experience one day.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Airports at which PRM is in use in the United States include Chicago-O'Hare, San Francisco, Detroit, and Atlanta.

San Francisco doesn’t have them anymore.

For a while they were becoming more common at large airports. Minneapolis had them for a few years. But they seem to be going away.

I did one, maybe two, at KMSP…first one I got a breakout, and I don’t remember if they were still doing them when I got vectored back.

 

[woywoyboy]

San Francisco doesn’t have them anymore.

True (as I just discovered — thanks). I guess the need for specially trained crews on both sides of the scopes didn't make using PRM worth it, even given KSFO's notorious issues with delays during IMC. Me, I'll stick with KOAK's single runway where at least the delays aren't guaranteed every time the coastal stratus rolls in (i.e. almost every summer day ).

 

[jordane93]

ATL uses them quite often. It’s pretty simple. Just monitor the frequency on your second radio. You’ll practice PRM breakout procedures in the sim

 

[RyanB]

I’m surprised you haven’t heard of them before, that question is on the Instrument written. You’ll learn more about it during your ATP-CTP class. ATL uses them.

 

[AggieMike88]

ATL uses them quite often. It’s pretty simple. Just monitor the frequency on your second radio. You’ll practice PRM breakout procedures in the sim

What info is coming across in Second radio?

 

[AggieMike88]

I’m surprised you haven’t heard of them before, that question is on the Instrument written. You’ll learn more about it during your ATP-CTP class. ATL uses them.

Instrument written is soooooo long ago….

Before I got started with the ATP prep, I thought I was done with the “spaghetti charts”. Nope! Get to do even more of them!

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

I’m surprised you haven’t heard of them before, that question is on the Instrument written. You’ll learn more about it during your ATP-CTP class. ATL uses them.

Wasn't on my written. Never heard of them either.

 

[RyanB]

What info is coming across in Second radio?

If everyone does as they’re supposed to, there’s nothing coming across it. If an aircraft strays off course, the monitor will try to return the aircraft to the final approach course.

Wasn't on my written. Never heard of them either.

Yeah it’s there, just must not have gotten it in the shuffle.

 

[Brad Z]

What info is coming across in Second radio?

The controller telling you to break off the approach if lateral separation is compromised. That way you can still hear him or her if the tower frequency is tied up.

 

[jordane93]

What info is coming across in Second radio?

If you’re getting to close to an aircraft on the parallel runway or vice versa, they’ll give you go around procedures. Sometimes, they’ll do a radio check as well to make sure you’re monitoring the monitor frequency. Overall, you don’t fly the approach differently but your airline will have specific procedures for your breakout maneuver.

 

[texasclouds]

Hey bud, I think they have (or had) one at the air force strip in Killeen. The controller(s) basically talk you down to the runway is what I understand. Could be zero zero conditions, then taxiing would be impossible. My IFR instructor told me he got permission to do it once many years ago (vmc).

 

[35 AoA]

Hey bud, I think they have (or had) one at the air force strip in Killeen. The controller(s) basically talk you down to the runway is what I understand. Could be zero zero conditions, then taxiing would be impossible. My IFR instructor told me he got permission to do it once many years ago (vmc).

I imagine you are talking about a GCA/PAR approach. Very common at mil airfields, especially those serving aircraft without self contained precision approach capability. It is exactly as you describe, and sometimes civ traffic can get them in low volume moments. I don't know of any mil fields that operate a PRM configuration.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

If an aircraft strays off course, the monitor will try to return the aircraft to the final approach course.

monitor controller will only issue breakout instructions.

Will also make sure you’re listening occasionally. Especially in Atlanta. I think it’s because most of the delta pilots don’t use headsets and miss calls.

 

[Pinecone]

I imagine you are talking about a GCA/PAR approach. Very common at mil airfields, especially those serving aircraft without self contained precision approach capability. It is exactly as you describe, and sometimes civ traffic can get them in low volume moments. I don't know of any mil fields that operate a PRM configuration.

Yeap. Although I was taught to do the reverse. If available, dial in the ILS to monitor the PAR controller.

FYI to others, GCA means Ground Controlled Approach. A PAR is a Precision approach with vertical (glide slope guidance). An ASR is a non-precision GCA, sort of like a Localizer approach.

We also were taught and practiced, No-Gyro GCA approaches (mainly ASR), that the controller would tell you "Turn Left" then "Stop Turn" These were used if you lost you heading information.

 

[aterpster]

I think it’s because most of the delta pilots don’t use headsets and miss calls.

You believe they use the speakers?

 

[jordane93]

I think it’s because most of the delta pilots don’t use headsets and miss calls.

True lol. SOP is to take our headset off after 18K. 75/76 is still loud. 73 we kept our headsets on the whole time because it’s a very loud cockpit. It also doesn’t help that we don’t have hot mics installed.

 

[luvflyin]

True lol. SOP is to take our headset off after 18K. 75/76 is still loud. 73 we kept our headsets on the whole time because it’s a very loud cockpit. It also doesn’t help that we don’t have hot mics installed.

What’s the reason behind that? Why would they want you to take headsets off?

 

[luvflyin]

What info is coming across in Second radio?

It can also come across on the first radio. The final monitor listens to and can transmit on the Tower frequency.

e. The following procedures must be used by the final monitor controllers:
1. For PRM approaches, provide position information to an aircraft that is left/right of the depicted final approach course centerline, and in your judgment is continuing on a track that may penetrate the NTZ.
PHRASEOLOGY−
(Aircraft call sign) I SHOW YOU (left/right) OF THE FINAL APPROACH COURSE.
2. Instruct the aircraft to return to the correct final approach course when aircraft are observed to overshoot the turn-on or to continue on a track which will penetrate the NTZ.
PHRASEOLOGY−
YOU HAVE CROSSED THE FINAL APPROACH COURSE. TURN (left/right) IMMEDIATELY AND RETURN TO THE FINAL APPROACH COURSE,
or
TURN (left/right) AND RETURN TO THE FINAL APPROACH COURSE.
3. Instruct aircraft on the adjacent final approach course to alter course to avoid the deviating aircraft when an aircraft is observed penetrating or in your judgment will penetrate the NTZ.
NOTE−
For PRM approaches, an instruction that may include a descent to avoid the deviating aircraft should only be used when there is no other reasonable option available to the controller. In such a case, the descent must not put the aircraft below the MVA.
PHRASEOLOGY−
TRAFFIC ALERT, (call sign), TURN (right/left) IMMEDIATELY HEADING (degrees), CLIMB/DESCEND AND MAINTAIN (altitude).

 

[jordane93]

What’s the reason behind that? Why would they want you to take headsets off?

Because we don’t want/need to wear it for an 8 hour flight. For the shorter flights, we still just take the headsets off and use speakers. Not sure how that became a thing.

 

[Brad Z]

FWIW, I don't think that's unique to Delta Air Lines.

 

[luvflyin]

Because we don’t want/need to wear it for an 8 hour flight. For the shorter flights, we still just take the headsets off and use speakers. Not sure how that became a thing.

Oh. I had read it as you were supposed to do it, not that you just can if you want to.

 

[jordane93]

Oh. I had read it as you were supposed to do it, not that you just can if you want to.

O no. You can keep it on. Most people don’t though. I try to keep it on as slick as possible because I don’t want to go deaf

 

[kayoh190]

We're only required to have them on below FL180, but on the 737 we almost always leave them on the entire flight (unless we're eating our meals). These days just about everyone has nice ANR headsets that are comfortable for long periods of time, so as jordan said we don't want to damage our hearing any more than we have to (I wish I had listened to this advice earlier!).

 

[Tarheelpilot]

True lol. SOP is to take our headset off after 18K. 75/76 is still loud. 73 we kept our headsets on the whole time because it’s a very loud cockpit. It also doesn’t help that we don’t have hot mics installed.

Oh

I thought you didn’t use headsets because they won’t fit over the hat.

 

[jordane93]

Oh

I thought you didn’t use headsets because they won’t fit over the hat.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Just in case you were wondering. I did make my comment for the sole purpose of making a hat joke later.

I like keeping the headsets on too. I’m already deaf enough.

 

[Velocity173]

Just flew a retired Delta guy this week. Guy coded too! He’s doing good now though.

Protect your hearing but try and stay healthy on the road as well. Not sure that’s realistic with airline lifestyle though.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Just flew a retired Delta guy this week. Guy coded too! He’s doing good now though.

Protect your hearing but try and stay healthy on the road as well. Not sure that’s realistic with airline lifestyle though.

It’s realistic

 

[AggieMike88]

Not sure that’s realistic with airline lifestyle though.

Realistic, but like many things you wish to be successful at, you need to put in the dedication and time.

 

[Velocity173]

Realistic, but like many things you wish to be successful at, you need to put in the dedication and time.

I just hear a lot of guys saying that’s it’s hard to eat right and find time to exercise on the road. Then they get home and they’ve got a backlog of honey dos. Yeah it’s doable just gotta try and make time.

 

[kayoh190]

I just hear a lot of guys saying that’s it’s hard to eat right and find time to exercise on the road. Then they get home and they’ve got a backlog of honey dos. Yeah it’s doable just gotta try and make time.

In a lot of ways it's easier now than it's been before - most of the major airports have new or renovated terminals with better (read: healthier) food options, and with Door Dash, Uber Eats, etc - it's easy to have better food delivered if you're stuck at a hotel with poor choices nearby. I'm not motivated enough to fill my cooler bag with food cooked at home, but the cooler allows me to grab a healthy choice when I notice one is available, even if I'm not quite hungry enough to eat it yet. Like you said, it does take planning and motivation and many times I slip up, but the opportunities to do it right are there if you go looking.

I also think part of the problem is that many pilots are cheap bastards, and eating well on the road (or taking an Uber to go on a nice hike, renting a bike to explore, etc) costs money. We all know these guys - with all the preemie going around they'll talk about their 50k/mo while pounding down a Big Mac value meal because they don't want to spend $16 on a nice salad.

 

[jordane93]

I just hear a lot of guys saying that’s it’s hard to eat right and find time to exercise on the road. Then they get home and they’ve got a backlog of honey dos. Yeah it’s doable just gotta try and make time.

I actually find myself more motivated to work out on layovers than I do at home. Also now that I do mostly international, I’m going to cities that I’ve never been before and I walk around a lot and explore. I try to do at least 8 miles.

 

[AggieMike88]

Also now that I do mostly international, I’m going to cities that I’ve never been before and I walk around a lot and explore. I try to do at least 8 miles.

What new to you cities have been your favorites so far?

 

[jordane93]

What new to you cities have been your favorites so far?

Basically anything in Europe lol. Brussels, Prague, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Reykjavik (I’ve been but it’s been like 10 years), Zurich (same thing. It’s been like 10 years), São Paulo. Accra is also a nice layover. Not really an exploring city but the hotel is amazing, the people are friendly and cuisine is very good. The nice thing about my fleet is the variety. I’m senior enough to hold all international but if for whatever reason if I don’t want to fly international, I can bid for domestic trips. The domestic trips are a lot of work though so I tend to just stay international. We do have 24 hour Aruba layovers which I like and a few 24-26 hour Las Vegas or LA overnights so I’ll bid those occasionally if I want to do domestic. The international stuff works for me. I sleep really well on my break and I’m able to sleep once I’m over there.

 

[Brad Z]

Basically anything in Europe lol. Brussels, Prague, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Reykjavik (I’ve been but it’s been like 10 years), Zurich (same thing. It’s been like 10 years), São Paulo. Accra is also a nice layover. Not really an exploring city but the hotel is amazing, the people are friendly and cuisine is very good. The nice thing about my fleet is the variety. I’m senior enough to hold all international but if for whatever reason if I don’t want to fly international, I can bid for domestic trips. The domestic trips are a lot of work though so I tend to just stay international. We do have 24 hour Aruba layovers which I like and a few 24-26 hour Las Vegas or LA overnights so I’ll bid those occasionally if I want to do domestic. The international stuff works for me. I sleep really well on my break and I’m able to sleep once I’m over there.

I could have sworn it was yesterday that you first got hired for your airline gig, lol. Out of curiousity I looked back and sure enough your first POA post was passing your instrument checkride back in 2013. Not bad, 9 years from instrument to mainline FO holding international trips!
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/passed-my-instrument-checkride-on-saturday.63378/

 

[jordane93]

I could have sworn it was yesterday that you first got hired for your airline gig, lol. Out of curiousity I looked back and sure enough your first POA post was passing your instrument checkride back in 2013. Not bad, 9 years from instrument to mainline FO holding international trips!
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/passed-my-instrument-checkride-on-saturday.63378/

Lots of luck and good timing!