Pre - Buy vs. Annual Inpection

Ventucky Red

Ventucky Red

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Jon
Had and interesting conversation with a gent at a well known facility in southern CA this morning regarding a pre-buy inspection on an potential airplane. He had mentioned to me he does not do them... not that he doesn't do them in principle it is that he does detailed inspection of the aircraft that converts it to an annual once the inspection is done which is not something I am opposed to doing.

But, I have always been under the impression that these are really two separate inspections and require a different mindset when performing the inspection..... one is going to check for maintenance for airworthiness, and the other to give on overview of the airplane and any potential maintenance issues coming down the road..

So what is the consensus here on pre-buy vs. annual? one in the same, or two different inspections?
 
Generally speaking, an annual is an evaluation of an airplane’s current condition against a set standard. A prebuy is an evaluation against a fluid standard which nobody knows.

An annual would go nowhere near as deep as I’d want to look, but just calling some mechanic up to do a prebuy, while giving them no criteria by which to judge the plane will also lead to disappointment.

My opinion, get a good, fussy, and honest mechanic to look at the plane. If they say it is a POS, then walk away. If they think it is good, then I’d buy it. The biggest problem I see with many airplane transactions is that the potential owner falls in love with the airplane and doesn’t listen to the mechanic anyway, regardless of how loud they yell not to buy the plane. When that happens, the money spent on the prebuy might as well be saved and spent elsewhere.
 
mondtster said:
The biggest problem I see with many airplane transactions is that the potential owner falls in love with the airplane and doesn’t listen to the mechanic anyway, regardless of how loud they yell not to buy the plane.
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My father told me early on to never become emotionally attached to something you're buying, house, car, boat, plane In this case, I don't have to buy an airplane and this is how I am going into it... I have already walked from two of them where the owner and I couldn't agree on things..

Thanks for your advice.
 
Do you have a mechanic? My own rule is I wouldn't buy an airplane unless my mechanic looked at it first. I don't care if that costs me a plane ticket and a couple of nights in a hotel. I trust my mechanic with my planes. He knows my preferences and expectations and I trust him. He's the only one I'd take advice from regarding airplane condition.
 
I don't have a lot of experience buying airplanes and I have cheated so far on getting good sailplanes.
My 1st sailplane I didn't do a prebuy but was working for an A&P and knew I could fly it for a year but expected it to be a project airplane. It was a bit more of a project than I hoped, but doubt a prebuy would have changed that.
The 2nd one I knew the builder, He finished it in 1974. I also knew the subsequent owners and the mechanics that had maintained it. I purchased it and flew it for 20 years. 2 years ago I bought my 3rd sailplane, again I knew the owner that had it imported new from Germany and the subseqent owner that had flown it for the past 18 years. I also knew the mechanics that had been maintaining it.

While I haven't had much opportunity to follow my own advice, I always advise the best plan is to have the Mechanic that is going to maintain the airplane for you do an annual inspection (not a prebuy, as previously mentioned there is no standard or accountability for a prebuy), If the airplane is purchased I want the mechanic to log the inspection in the logbooks. I realize this isn't always an option, but if your 1st annual is by a mechanic that hasn't seen the airplane before then be prepared for the expected "Expensive 1st Annual"

Brian
 
Pre buy rolled into an annual,worked for me several times. If the pre buy goes bad your not out a great deal of money.
 
frfly172 said:
Pre buy rolled into an annual,worked for me several times. If the pre buy goes bad your not out a great deal of money.
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I had annual done with a list of extra spots to check... worked well for me to recalibrate annual due in early winter vs late spring early summer... summer too short in MI to risk the old bird being down for annual in middle of flying season... all I can envision is needing a scarce part or whatnot that wud keep me disassembled for all of June...

An annual w extra look list makes sense to me..
 
Stewartb said:
Do you have a mechanic? My own rule is I wouldn't buy an airplane unless my mechanic looked at it first. I don't care if that costs me a plane ticket and a couple of nights in a hotel. I trust my mechanic with my planes. He knows my preferences and expectations and I trust him. He's the only one I'd take advice from regarding airplane condition.
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Plus he knows if you buy the plane he's the one you'll be expecting to keep it flying...;)
 
Being an owner and an A&P/IA myself, I'd say that I use the same checklist for both types of inspections. The difference really is in the mindset behind the inspection. With an annual, I'm focused on airworthiness and general maintenance items, and any additional issues that might develop between the annual inspection and the next scheduled inspection (probably next year's annual).

However, when I'm doing a prebuy I'm focused on overall condition, and with that I document ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. With this in mind, I look for anything that has deteriorated since the bird was new. Additionally, I review the previous repairs and alterations to determine if any notable conditions exist. Also, I do an in-depth review of the logbooks, equipment list, FAA records (if available), etc. to determine if there are any discrepancies that might affect the value or condition of the aircraft. EVERY aircraft has discrepancies (even new ones), the key is to make a concerted effort to keep the post-purchase surprises to a minimum.

I felt bad this week, as I reviewed a bunch of photos for a prospective aircraft purchase that the owner sent me. He unfortunately just purchased the aircraft Nov '18, and looking through the photos I found an airframe crack that affects the airworthiness of his plane. He paid for a prebuy back in November, and just this month finished paying for a complete annual inspection. Neither inspection caught the crack... Poor guy!

Sometimes pics are worth a thousand words, in this case the pics were worth at least $1k to me, as I didn't have to fly there to see the bird in person. This is the second time I've walked away from a prospective purchase because of things I was able to determine from pictures... Technology is great!
 
Ventucky Red said:
pre-buy vs. annual? one in the same, or two different inspections?
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To add to the above: airworthiness is highly subjective to the person signing it off. I've been a proponent of using the mechanic who maintain the aircraft for you after its purchase for all pre-purchase checks, because he is the one who'll be giving you the bill after its first annual. Then let that mechanic assist you in deciding what needs to be looked at prior to purchase.

As to what "inspection," technically there's no defined pre-buy or pre-purchase inspection criteria. It's all on you or your mechanic... and in some cases what the seller will allow. Not all sellers will allow an annual to be performed due to the risk of finding discrepanices as most sellers are offering the aircraft in "as is" condition. But it all depends on how hungry the seller is willing to sell.

Most issues arise from using a mechanic local to the aircraft then using a different mechanic to maintain it. When I did pre-purchase reviews I always went into the check with a written guide that was agreed to by the buyer and seller, which to me is the most important part as is how any noted discrepancies will be dealt with. Good luck.
 
When I bought my Mooney, it was out of annual by about 6 months. So rather than have the owner do the annual and then me do a pre-purchase I decided to just split the cost of the annual with the owner. In that case I would be Privy to the results of the annual rather than the owner just deferring stuff. So as it turns out once the annual was done and found to be unairworthy for several items, I offered substantially less for the plane (enough to cover the repairs). The owner didn't have much choice since the plane was in pieces, on jacks, 50 miles from home. Still had some issues come after the purchase, but it was a lot better than buying the plane and winding up with an $11,000 annual the following year.
 
I have rolled two plane purchases into annuals. I tell the inspector what I am interested in specifically, but I also prefaced it with, "If it looks good, this may become an annual but if you find any show stoppers like corrosion or major cost issues, stop what you are doing and call me."

Pre-buys are generally an ala carte thing unless you just tell them "pre-buy and nothing else, which the AP will do the annual checklist sans any specific guidance.
 
Aren't pre-purchase inspections supposed to tell you if the aircraft is worth the asking price?

I've been asked to do inspections on projects.
 
mondtster said:
The biggest problem I see with many airplane transactions is that the potential owner falls in love with the airplane and doesn’t listen to the mechanic anyway, regardless of how loud they yell not to buy the plane. When that happens, the money spent on the prebuy might as well be saved and spent on fixing the defects the prebuy would have found.
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Yup. Excitement over becoming an owner can cause us to do stupid things. I fixed the rest of your comment for you.
 
The whole problem leading to these questions is that there is no definition of a pre-buy. There are very specific items and requirements to an annual.

If you want your pre-buy to be rolled into an annual, tell the IA that. If you just want a cursory overview to see if the airplane is about to fall apart, then ask for that. In other words, discuss with your AI what you want and are willing to pay for.
 
Select the plane you like and want to look for, join the type club and read everything you can about what to look for in a pre-buy then do one with a current owner that you know to understand the jargon and to get a feel of what is good or bad. Then do your own pre-buy.
 
"You can't know too much but you can say too much" Calvin Coolidge
 
FlySince9 said:
When I bought my Mooney, it was out of annual by about 6 months. So rather than have the owner do the annual and then me do a pre-purchase I decided to just split the cost of the annual with the owner. In that case I would be Privy to the results of the annual rather than the owner just deferring stuff. So as it turns out once the annual was done and found to be unairworthy for several items, I offered substantially less for the plane (enough to cover the repairs). The owner didn't have much choice since the plane was in pieces, on jacks, 50 miles from home. Still had some issues come after the purchase, but it was a lot better than buying the plane and winding up with an $11,000 annual the following year.
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I think this is more or less the best way to do it.

Here's my program for prebuys: 1) Confirm with the seller that they are representing an airworthy plane, have that as part of your contract. 2) Do a pre-buy-to-annual - annual *inspection*, not necessarily the repairs. 3) Research and know your type, and ask the mechanic to inspect any known trouble-spots for that model even if that is over-and-above the annual requirement. 3) If you decide to proceed, insist the seller repair airworthiness items uncovered during the annual at their expense; that is how they represented the aircraft and it's in their contract.

If the deal goes bad, you're (maybe) out a few extra hundred bucks - maybe not if the mechanic calls it at the "pre-buy" stage. But not having to have the "first annual" anxiety and getting a clean bill of health and 12 months of no annuals is totally worth it.
 
As noted there is no prescription for a “prebuy” inspection so mechanics generally don’t care to do them because it seems like a setup when the new owner inevitably finds something wrong and blames you for not seeing it. At least with an annual it’s a well defined procedure that the mechanic is versed in. He can tell you weather or not the airplane is airworthy and in the process could give an opinion on what he has observed in regards to overall condition. But mechanics are also not so much into market values or those sort of sales oriented things so determining what it’s worth may not be in his skill set.
 
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