Practicing short field landings in gusting winds

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Revtach

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Revtach
Hello,

How do we practice short field landings when winds are 5 knots gusting to 15 for example?

Our POH says our approach speed should be at 61 knots and full flaps in our C172P. Since we're also supposed to add half the gust factor to approach speed (and some say we should also approach with flaps at 20 degrees in gusting winds), is it possible to practice short field landings in such conditions since we'd not be in compliance with the POH procedure?
 
You will not be doing short field with partial flaps. To get the advantage, you will be using full flaps.

If the POH says add half the gust factor, then do so. With your example, 61 KIAS plus half the gust factor would make the final approach speed 69 KIAS. Plus/minus 0 on airspeed. (easier to round up than fly a 1/2 knot) After that just normal crosswind procedure, if the wind is a crosswind.


What part would not be in compliance of the POH procedure.??
 
Zeldman said:
You will not be doing short field with partial flaps. To get the advantage, you will be using full flaps.

If the POH says add half the gust factor, then do so. With your example, 61 KIAS plus half the gust factor would make the final approach speed 69 KIAS. Plus/minus 0 on airspeed. (easier to round up than fly a 1/2 knot) After that just normal crosswind procedure, if the wind is a crosswind.


What part would not be in compliance of the POH procedure.??
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Approaching at 69 knots would not be in compliance.

The POH doesn't say to add half the gust factor. That's just a common suggestion on what to do in gusting winds.
 
Revtach said:
Approaching at 69 knots would not be in compliance.

The POH doesn't say to add half the gust factor. That's just a common suggestion on what to do in gusting winds.
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Compliance with what?

Edit: compliance with the POH? Then what does the POH say is compliance (and why are you not doing that but instead asking here?)?
 
Your answer is in the ACS
 
Revtach said:
Hello,

How do we practice short field landings when winds are 5 knots gusting to 15 for example?

Our POH says our approach speed should be at 61 knots and full flaps in our C172P. Since we're also supposed to add half the gust factor to approach speed (and some say we should also approach with flaps at 20 degrees in gusting winds), is it possible to practice short field landings in such conditions since we'd not be in compliance with the POH procedure?
Click to expand...
The general recommendation to add 1/2 the gust factor is to allow for a greater buffer above stall speed. You are closer to stall speed in the short field configuration than a "normal" landing, so you want that buffer. Since that 61 is a target based on max gross weight anyway, there's a little fudge built in too.

"Not full flaps" in a crosswind is one of those subjects that get debated from time to time. "Not full flaps" claims higher airspeed for better control effectiveness. "Full flaps anyway" claims a slower airspeed at touchdown will lessen the damage if you screw up the landing.

Yeah, I was one of those who blindly followed my primary CFI's advice to use partial flaps in crosswinds. Until one day when I was working on my CFI. It was a day with a significant crosswind. My instructor asked me about flaps and I said, "I would never use full flaps in a crosswind!" He said, "let's go do some full flap landings." We did. No problem.

You will typically lose more short field performance from that flap reduction than you will from increasing airspeed those few knots for the crosswind.
 
I think context matters with this question. Are you asking:

1. for a written or oral test?
2. as a student preparing for a check ride?
3. as a private pilot out to improve gusty wind skills? or
4. as a pilot interested in backcountry flying or stol competition skills?

if 4, then the answer is risky flying that is behind the power curve, then prudent ADM dictates you give that you pass on that spot until the winds calm.
if 1 & 2, parrot the ACS.
if 3, then loading and familiarity with your plane are key. Experiment at altitude before trying it near the ground. part of growing as a pilot is challenging yourself to move outside your comfort zone. In truth, on any flight, any of us can be caught off the ground in unforecast conditions that are outside our comfort zone. In that case, we're gonna have to make-do by taking a calculated risk: relying on our judgment and knowing the limits of the aircraft or deciding to go somewhere else.

having said that, half the gust is a good rule of thumb and so close to the 1.3 calculation in practice that they're the same thing. both, on a gusty, bumpy day, are well within the "bounce" of your airspeed indicator reading and your ability to hold an airspeed in those conditions.
 
Revtach said:
Our POH says our approach speed should be at 61 knots and full flaps in our C172P.
Click to expand...
Does it actually say you should always approach at 61 knots with full flaps, or is that an example based on a certain weight and conditions? And is that a limitation or a suggestion? What actually works?
 
I was kind of thinking the same thing as rhkennerly. Unless you’re on fire, there is really no reason to be doing a true short field landing in a gusty crosswind. But then, sometimes people do like doing those night instrument landings to minimums in the mountains, on a short field that is iced over in blowing snow . Best to just pick a better runway and leave the bent metal for someone else.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
I think we can safely put EdFred in the "Just learn how to fly your plane and use full flaps" camp ;)
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It's rumored that he can auto-rotate a fixed wing into a short field ... :biggrin:
 
If the OP's question is for real life rather than a test ...
Fly the plane any way you want that gets you down safely. Even if that means going to a longer, wider runway and spending the night in the plane. Blind adherence to someone else's idea of what you should do in all conditions can get you hurt.

Personally, in my Piper Warrior (-161) I use full flaps virtually all the time in all conditions. If I have a long runway (3500') or a good uphill slope, just for fun I may use only 2 notches (25 degrees). Maybe once or twice a year.
 
Revtach said:
Hello,

How do we practice short field landings when winds are 5 knots gusting to 15 for example?

Our POH says our approach speed should be at 61 knots and full flaps in our C172P. Since we're also supposed to add half the gust factor to approach speed (and some say we should also approach with flaps at 20 degrees in gusting winds), is it possible to practice short field landings in such conditions since we'd not be in compliance with the POH procedure?
Click to expand...
You should read your 172P POH, (page 4-20) again.

For a crosswind landing, the POH recommends using the minimum flap setting for the field length.

For a short field landing, the approach is made in smooth air with 30 degrees flaps at 61 KIAS. In turbulent air, a slightly higher approach speed is recommended.

The bottom line is you may not be able to perform any landing in all wind conditions and as a pilot you need to recognize the risks associated with the crosswinds and wind shear. This becomes more of a factor with short and soft field landings and the answer to your question is you don’t practice short field landings under the conditions given.
 
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If in context of a checkride,I would think adding a gust factor would be perfectly fine as long as you explain to the DPE before exactly what you’re doing.If you have a reason for what you are doing and it’s for safeties sake most are very understanding.

For instance,I took my private ride in a Aa1b on a hot day.Vx is 75 but if you hold it to that when hot and heavy it’s sketchy,getting occasional stall warning chirps.I explained that to him and said I use 80 as short field when hot and heavy because it will actually yield a better climb.He understood and said you know your airplane,go for it.

Having said all that,that’s just in context of a checkride.I would echo what has been said previously about “really” needing to do a short field landing on a gusty day.
 
Revtach said:
Hello,

How do we practice short field landings when winds are 5 knots gusting to 15 for example?

Our POH says our approach speed should be at 61 knots and full flaps in our C172P. Since we're also supposed to add half the gust factor to approach speed (and some say we should also approach with flaps at 20 degrees in gusting winds), is it possible to practice short field landings in such conditions since we'd not be in compliance with the POH procedure?
Click to expand...
Add half the gust factor - fly short final at 66. A short field landing with full flaps in a 172 in those conditions is not difficult. Even a direct crosswind shouldn’t be too much of a challenge.
 
Jaminky said:
If in context of a checkride,I would think adding a gust factor would be perfectly fine as long as you explain to the DPE before exactly what you’re doing.If you have a reason for what you are doing and it’s for safeties sake most are very understanding.

For instance,I took my private ride in a Aa1b on a hot day.Vx is 75 but if you hold it to that when hot and heavy it’s sketchy,getting occasional stall warning chirps.I explained that to him and said I use 80 as short field when hot and heavy because it will actually yield a better climb.He understood and said you know your airplane,go for it.

Having said all that,that’s just in context of a checkride.I would echo what has been said previously about “really” needing to do a short field landing on a gusty day.
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The ACS does allow the applicant +10/-5 of the recommended speeds with a gust factor to the short field takeoff and landings, but the ACS does not allow more than 200 feet of the specified spot with the aircraft proper aligned with the centerline of the runway. The ACS also requires the applicant to identify, assess and mitigate risks including crosswind and wind shear.

If you chose to take the test on a crappy day, add airspeed and bust the landing tolerances , it’s on you.
 
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The OP says practice not a checkride. I say go try full flaps. Practice on that “gusting 10 knots “ day and learn what that feels like.
 
Revtach said:
Hello,

How do we practice short field landings when winds are 5 knots gusting to 15 for example?
Click to expand...
I don't mean this to be a smart-a&& answer - With a CFI that is comfortable making short field landings in 5G15 winds. I say this because you want to learn how to fly them, and to me to do that safely you should be with someone that knows how to do it. It's a feel/finesse thing.

You're in a 172, and I can't speak to that. In a PA-28, I like full flaps and being maybe a little steeper than usual. Being shallow and "dragging it in" seems like a bad plan in general, and a worse plan in gusty conditions. Being a little high give you more options and an ability to nose down to recover when the gust drops off. The only disadvantage I see of full flaps, in an aircraft where that's an approved technique, is that many won't climb much at all on a go around with that flaps setting. And in the go around it's critical to get your airspeed up before you pull out the flaps.

Not a CFI. Have not stayed in a holiday in. Did learn to land based out of a short field where it was usually a little gusty.
 
Clip4 said:
The ACS does allow the applicant +10/-5 of the recommended speeds with a gust factor to the short field takeoff and landings, but the ACS does not allow more than 200 feet of the specified spot with the aircraft proper aligned with the centerline of the runway. The ACS also requires the applicant to identify, assess and mitigate risks including crosswind and wind shear.

If you chose to take the test on a crappy day, add airspeed and bust the landing tolerances , it’s on you.
Click to expand...

You’d be waiting a long time for a checkride in Nevada if you wanted a day without gusty winds.
 
DesertNomad said:
You’d be waiting a long time for a checkride in Nevada if you wanted a day without gusty winds.
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It’s all perspective I guess, but tomorrow isn’t a long wait and 7 knots isn’t gusty.

KLAS 120230Z 1202/1306 06007KT P6SM FEW100 FM120300 25007KT P6SM SKC FM121500 05007KT P6SM SKC FM122100 08006KT P6SM FEW100 FM130300 22006KT P6SM SKC
 
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Clip4 said:
It’s all perspective I guess, but tomorrow isn’t a long wait and 7 knots isn’t gusty.

KLAS 120230Z 1202/1306 06007KT P6SM FEW100 FM120300 25007KT P6SM SKC FM121500 05007KT P6SM SKC FM122100 08006KT P6SM FEW100 FM130300 22006KT P6SM SKC
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I should have said northern Nevada. Yesterday they said today would be not so gusty but it was 5G15 for much of the day which beats the 15G30 that it has been.
 
I consider short field landings and cross wind landings to be two different disciplines. When I train for short field, I train short field. If there is a good steady crosswind, like 8-12 mph and steady, then I train for crosswind. If I have done a few of them and are happy, then I work on making those landings shorter.

I also don't only train short field with full flaps. I prefer takeoff flaps for my short field approaches. The rule I have is to approach to the tree line height and if everything looks good I continue the landing. I can always put more flaps down if everything looks good. If I am out of position either too high or too fast or pass the numbers too high, I go around.

To me the most important things about short field landing is to put the wheels on the ground slow enough to stay, and short enough to have room to stop safely. If you don't get on the ground in the first 250 feet or so, you are throwing away too much runway to land safely. Those are pretty good rules for my old Cherokee and my short bodied Mooney. I land on short fields often enough to be comfortable with them, but I am always trying to get a little better. So I practice regularly.

Hope this helps
 
Food for thought: If you ever have an engine out you may need to combine the two techniques.
 
DesertNomad said:
I should have said northern Nevada. Yesterday they said today would be not so gusty but it was 5G15 for much of the day which beats the 15G30 that it has been.
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There is such a thing as scheduling other than mid day when the winds are peak.
 
Rockymountain said:
I was kind of thinking the same thing as rhkennerly. Unless you’re on fire, there is really no reason to be doing a true short field landing in a gusty crosswind. But then, sometimes people do like doing those night instrument landings to minimums in the mountains, on a short field that is iced over in blowing snow . Best to just pick a better runway and leave the bent metal for someone else.
Click to expand...

Clip4 said:
You should read your 172P POH, (page 4-20) again.

For a crosswind landing, the POH recommends using the minimum flap setting for the field length.

For a short field landing, the approach is made in smooth air with 30 degrees flaps at 61 KIAS. In turbulent air, a slightly higher approach speed is recommended.

The bottom line is you may not be able to perform any landing in all wind conditions and as a pilot you need to recognize the risks associated with the crosswinds and wind shear. This becomes more of a factor with short and soft field landings and the answer to your question is you don’t practice short field landings under the conditions given.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:
 
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