Practicing IFR Approaches at MIL Airfields

[Henry Stache]

Hey all, what's the best way to ask for a PAR approach these days, or possible other (low) approaches only at military fields. Obviously not Tonopah but possibly Tinker, NAS Ft. Worth, Dyess, Altus, etc.?
Is calling ahead and asking worth it, since I've heard that people have called where one person behind a desk said it was fine and then local control rejected upon arrival.

Thanks!

 

[Velocity173]

Just ask approach when you check in. I’m not showing Dyess, Tinker or Altus having a PAR though. Carswell does because it’s Navy/Marine. Pretty standard for those guys to have a PAR. When I was in, regs wouldn’t allow practice GCAs (even low approach) at the base without a landing permit (CALP). Might be changed by now. I know the Army does. Done a bunch of PARs at Cairns and Hunter.

 

[Skyrys62]

Interesting question.. of which I know nothing about.
I was investigating possible landings in VA for visits to a family member in the Navy, stationed around Newport News.
Came across this list, but doesn't seem to help me. Just thought I'd share..

https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_capacity/joint_use_airports/

 

[luvflyin]

Hey all, what's the best way to ask for a PAR approach these days, or possible other (low) approaches only at military fields. Obviously not Tonopah but possibly Tinker, NAS Ft. Worth, Dyess, Altus, etc.?
Is calling ahead and asking worth it, since I've heard that people have called where one person behind a desk said it was fine and then local control rejected upon arrival.

Thanks!

First of all find out if they even have them. Dyess and Tinker have ASR Approaches but not PAR. Altus doesn't have Radar Approaches.

 

[Brad W]

way back in the 1990's when I was training, my instructor had me practice those approaches a few times at Langley AFB...low approach no landing was made clear with the clearance to do it. I was honestly a little nervous thinking what might happen if the engine faltered and we were forced down.

Later, when I lived in Kennesaw Ga, my last flight before I moved away was with an instructor friend in a rented 182RG...not an instrument approach but we got clearance for a low approach at Dobbins. We brought it down hill for runway 11, full throttle and it felt to me that we were getting along pretty good but it dawned on me as we passed the tower that we probably looked pretty slow to the folks looking out. It was a fun last flight for me though

 

[Flymy47]

In my area Fort Campbell Approach is very GA friendly. I have routinely seen local flight school airplanes and even the university helicopter using the ILS and then low approach down the active. Years ago, they made you break off the approach at 1 mile from the threshold. Approach here is awesome, although it can get very busy within the alert area around KHOP and the reservation.

 

[coma24]

I was overlying Ft Rucker on the way to Columbus AFB for work last December and asked a question of the Ft Rucker approach controller regarding PARs. He spit out his coffee and basically begged me to bang out a few approaches for his trainee. This is a pretty common story from what I understand, echoed by almost any rapcon controller I've ever spoken with. Their currency is at the mercy of pilots' willingness to shoot the approaches. As a result, if the mil pilots aren't doing enough, they'll take 'em anywhere they can get 'em. I had to decline as I had a deadline I needed to make a Columbus, but otherwise would've obliged.

 

[Velocity173]

I was overlying Ft Rucker on the way to Columbus AFB for work last December and asked a question of the Ft Rucker approach controller regarding PARs. He spit out his coffee and basically begged me to bang out a few approaches for his trainee. This is a pretty common story from what I understand, echoed by almost any rapcon controller I've ever spoken with. Their currency is at the mercy of pilots' willingness to shoot the approaches. As a result, if the mil pilots aren't doing enough, they'll take 'em anywhere they can get 'em. I had to decline as I had a deadline I needed to make a Columbus, but otherwise would've obliged.

Probably wasn’t a currency issue but the trainee needing a mix of traffic before getting signed off. We would have students that had the required amount of approaches but they were all one type (fighters) of aircraft. In that case we’d solicit approaches from helos / transports so the student got a well rounded background before their check ride.

 

[IK04]

I was introduced to PAR approaches by the guys at Fritzsche AAF at what used to be Fort Ord. I would often fly to the Monterey area to play at the former Carmel Valley airport and approach would call me and beg for practice approaches so they could keep their currency. This was before I joined the Army, so it was all new to me.

The procedures were simple and I figured out the standard phraseology after two or three turns. I would go there at night just to fly the PAR so that the night shift guys could play too! There were only a few UH-1 Hueys and a couple of OH-58 range support aircraft then, since the installation was downsizing prior to being decommissioned. When I became a CFI, I would take my students there as part of our C-172 checkout, just for fun.

I just looked it up and the airport is now called Marina and a chunk of Fort Ord is now the city of Marina.

 

[bkspero]

I phoned the RAPCON clearance number early on the day I wanted to fly the approaches. They asked me what time I wanted to do the approaches and told me to radio when 15 out. I got vectors from there.

 

[luvflyin]

I phoned the RAPCON clearance number early on the day I wanted to fly the approaches. They asked me what time I wanted to do the approaches and told me to radio when 15 out. I got vectors from there.

Where?

 

[NoHeat]

I’ve flown directly over Altus, in sparsely populated SW Oklahoma, lots of times on weekends. The tower is closed then, and nobody is flying.

I never thought of trying it, but I can’t see any reason why you couldn’t fly their approaches VFR with a low pass, without any controller involved. They’ve got ILS RNAV and VOR approaches.

 

[Velocity173]

There’s no standard DoD wide policy on allowing / denying practice radar approaches. Navy / Marines, good chance you’re not getting one based on ATC regs. I can tell you at NBC and NKX we didn’t allow it. Didn’t need it for currency either since we got plenty of approaches from mil traffic.

Army / Air Force, there’s a good chance they will allow it with a low approach only. Even if it’s allowed, you have no priority. That means they’re not going to bend over backwards to make room for a Cessna amongst F-16s. Practice approaches aren’t allowed to delay arriving / departing traffic. That is standard.

For the OP, I think your closest PAR opportunity would be Ft Hood. Plenty of AF bases in your area that offer ASR approaches. Obviously not the same as PAR though.

 

[bkspero]

Where?

McGuire AFB (WRI), New Jersey

 

[luvflyin]

McGuire AFB (WRI), New Jersey

That's weird. They have PAR, but no ASR Approach. I've never seen that before. Wondering if it's a misprint.

 

[Velocity173]

That's weird. They have PAR, but no ASR Approach. I've never seen that before. Wondering if it's a misprint.

Army has several airfields with just PAR but no ASR.

 

[luvflyin]

Army has several airfields with just PAR but no ASR.

Can you see the logic behind doing that? They gotta TERP out the PAR Approach. Wouldn't take but a few more minutes of number crunching to come up with the ASR Minimums.

 

[Velocity173]

Can you see the logic behind doing that? They gotta TERP out the PAR Approach. Wouldn't take but a few more minutes of number crunching to come up with the ASR Minimums.

I think they’re mostly setups with just a PAR at the field so they get the handout off directly from the overlying approach facility. That overlying approach facility for whatever reason doesn’t offer ASRs. Possibly they have good coverage for the handout but not low enough for a meaningful MDA? Or the field is too far from the ASR antenna to do an SA(target accuracy)? Not sure.

 

[luvflyin]

I think they’re mostly setups with just a PAR at the field so they get the handout off directly from the overlying approach facility. That overlying approach facility for whatever reason doesn’t offer ASRs. Possibly they have good coverage for the handout but not low enough for a meaningful MDA? Or the field is too far from the ASR antenna to do an SA(target accuracy)? Not sure.

The GCA unit with the PAR would be doing the Approach. The handoff they got from Approach Control would be no different. I've never heard of a GCA unit that didn't have it's own ASR Antennae in it, but I suppose there could be. What are some of these Army fields with PAR but no ASR.

 

[Mxfarm]

I’ve flown directly over Altus, in sparsely populated SW Oklahoma, lots of times on weekends. The tower is closed then, and nobody is flying.

I never thought of trying it, but I can’t see any reason why you couldn’t fly their approaches VFR with a low pass, without any controller involved. They’ve got ILS RNAV and VOR approaches.

KCSM just north of Altus is the same - ILS and nobody home after hours ( normally ) plus there’s 13.5k’ of runway so it’s easy to get current on landings.

 

[Sluggo63]

That's weird. They have PAR, but no ASR Approach. I've never seen that before. Wondering if it's a misprint.

It's not. I was based there for over 15 years.

The PAR showed up somewhere in the late 2000s, maybe early 2010s. I think it was part of the BRAC realignment when NAS Willow Grove shut down and the Navy C-130s were sent to McGuire (now Joint Base-McGuire/Dix/Lakehurst/JB-MDL). At the time the controllers were getting all spun up so they were always asking for radar approaches.

As an aside, what was funny was that it made more work for us ANG pilots. On our AF checkrides, we have to do a mixture of approaches, precision & non-precision, all-engine & engine out, normal-flap & partial flap, circling, etc. One of the things that the Instruction stipulated was that a radar approach HAD to be demonstrated. But Air Force bases had pretty much gotten rid of all their PARs decades ago, so there was an out written into the Instruction that if a radar approach couldn't be accomplished, the checkride was allowed to be completed, but then the radar approach procedures had to be verbally evaluated during the debrief (how often should you hear the controller talk to you on final? (5 seconds for PAR, 15 seconds on an ASR), yada, yada, yada...). So, that's what we always expected, "PAR not available, procedures were verbally evaluated." Well, along comes the PAR installation at WRI, and I remember giving one of the first checkrides after it was certified, and during the briefing, the evaluatee briefed the approaches he was planning... an ILS, then a localizer and another ILS, etc. At the end of the briefing I asked "where are you going to do the PAR?" He looked at me, shocked "you guys are serious about that?" Lol. Yeah, we are... it went off without a hitch, especially because a smart pilot will follow the Instructions and back up every radar approach with a ground based approach. So a PAR backed up with an ILS, is de rigueur. It's amazing how well a PAR can be flown when you have ILS data staring you in the face.

 

[Velocity173]

The GCA unit with the PAR would be doing the Approach. The handoff they got from Approach Control would be no different. I've never heard of a GCA unit that didn't have it's own ASR Antennae in it, but I suppose there could be. What are some of these Army fields with PAR but no ASR.

I know the GCA unit with the PAR would be doing the approach. But, the GCA unit wouldn’t necessarily have an ASR collocated with it. If not, the ASR facility (approach / arrival) doing the handoff to RFC would be the one that offers the ASR. In that case, they may or may not be able to provide an ASR due to distance / coverage limitations. Might be able to provide an PAR without GS but that won’t be in the radar mins section listed as an ASR approach.

Some Army facilites with PAR only:

Cairns AAF
Red stone AAF
Robert Gray AAF
Simmons AAF
Gray AAF
Troy, AL

 

[luvflyin]

I know the GCA unit with the PAR would be doing the approach. But, the GCA unit wouldn’t necessarily have an ASR collocated with it. If not, the ASR facility (approach / arrival) doing the handoff to RFC would be the one that offers the ASR. In that case, they may or may not be able to provide an ASR due to distance / coverage limitations. Might be able to provide an PAR without GS but that won’t be in the mind section listed as an ASR approach.

Some Army facilites with PAR only:

Cairns AAF
Red stone AAF
Robert Gray AAF
Simmons AAF
Gray AAF
Troy, AL

Ok. What are these Units with PAR antennaes but no ASR antennae. AN/something ##.

 

[luvflyin]

It's not. I was based there for over 15 years.

The PAR showed up somewhere in the late 2000s, maybe early 2010s. I think it was part of the BRAC realignment when NAS Willow Grove shut down and the Navy C-130s were sent to McGuire (now Joint Base-McGuire/Dix/Lakehurst/JB-MDL). At the time the controllers were getting all spun up so they were always asking for radar approaches.

As an aside, what was funny was that it made more work for us ANG pilots. On our AF checkrides, we have to do a mixture of approaches, precision & non-precision, all-engine & engine out, normal-flap & partial flap, circling, etc. One of the things that the Instruction stipulated was that a radar approach HAD to be demonstrated. But Air Force bases had pretty much gotten rid of all their PARs decades ago, so there was an out written into the Instruction that if a radar approach couldn't be accomplished, the checkride was allowed to be completed, but then the radar approach procedures had to be verbally evaluated during the debrief (how often should you hear the controller talk to you on final? (5 seconds for PAR, 15 seconds on an ASR), yada, yada, yada...). So, that's what we always expected, "PAR not available, procedures were verbally evaluated." Well, along comes the PAR installation at WRI, and I remember giving one of the first checkrides after it was certified, and during the briefing, the evaluatee briefed the approaches he was planning... an ILS, then a localizer and another ILS, etc. At the end of the briefing I asked "where are you going to do the PAR?" He looked at me, shocked "you guys are serious about that?" Lol. Yeah, we are... it went off without a hitch, especially because a smart pilot will follow the Instructions and back up every radar approach with a ground based approach. So a PAR backed up with an ILS, is de rigueur. It's amazing how well a PAR can be flown when you have ILS data staring you in the face.

And it is amazing just how good a Controller can give a PAR when the pilot ain't doing a thing the Controller says but following the needles. Dude, did you see that Approach I just gave that guy. I had it nailed, had him on course and on glidepath the whole way down. Damn, I'm good.

 

[Sluggo63]

And it is amazing just how good a Controller can give a PAR when the pilot ain't doing a thing the Controller says but following the needles. Dude, did you see that Approach I just gave that guy. I had it nailed, had him on course and on glidepath the whole way down. Damn, I'm good.

Lol

To be fair, that “PAR backed up with an ILS” was purely a checkride thing. For day to day practice approaches, we’d not back it up and follow the controllers headings and above/below calls. I think we all understand the importance of both sides of the radio being proficient in flying/giving radar approaches.

 

[Velocity173]

Ok. What are these Units with PAR antennaes but no ASR antennae. AN/something ##.

Some sort of old school FPN analog or newer digital type radar. Just an antenna and a radar shack associated with it. I’m sure they’re in the process of replacing some of that with ATNAVICs though. That would give them both PAR & ASR capability.

Some of the remote (tactical) Army GCA setups around the world don't even have an ASR handoff capability. In Kosovo, we flew to a predetermined spot and GCA would ID us through position correlation on the PAR. It was an emergency IIMC setup only.

 

[luvflyin]

Some sort of old school FPN analog or newer digital type radar. Just an antenna and a radar shack associated with it. I’m sure they’re in the process of replacing some of that with ATNAVICs though. That would give them both PAR & ASR capability.

Some of the remote (tactical) Army GCA setups around the world don't even have an ASR handoff capability. In Kosovo, we flew to a predetermined spot and GCA would ID us through position correlation on the PAR. It was an emergency IIMC setup only.

Ah. Ok. Now I'm getting this PAR Approaches but no ASR Approaches thing.

 

[luvflyin]

Lol

To be fair, that “PAR backed up with an ILS” was purely a checkride thing. For day to day practice approaches, we’d not back it up and follow the controllers headings and above/below calls. I think we all understand the importance of both sides of the radio being proficient in flying/giving radar approaches.

Yeah. I know. I wasn't accusing ya of anything. Just funnin on some controllers.

 

[Radar Contact]

When I was in, regs wouldn’t allow practice GCAs (even low approach) at the base without a landing permit (CALP)

When I was doing instrument rating training around ATL around the turn of the century I’d depart FFC and fly around ATL every night shooting approaches along the way. Dobbins always gave me a PAR but had some blurb about low approach only, wheels can’t touch.

For that month I could hear the ATL controllers verbally sigh when I departed.

 

[luvflyin]

When I was doing instrument rating training around ATL around the turn of the century I’d depart FFC and fly around ATL every night shooting approaches along the way. Dobbins always gave me a PAR but had some blurb about low approach only, wheels can’t touch.

For that month I could hear the ATL controllers verbally sigh when I departed.

Ok. He’s gone. Now whose turn is it, roll the dice

 

[Velocity173]

When I was doing instrument rating training around ATL around the turn of the century I’d depart FFC and fly around ATL every night shooting approaches along the way. Dobbins always gave me a PAR but had some blurb about low approach only, wheels can’t touch.

For that month I could hear the ATL controllers verbally sigh when I departed.

Thats because you used super secret former Air Force controller talk to get the PAR. Speaking of Dobbins, I asked them maybe a year ago if they allowed civilian aircraft practice PARs and the controller said no. Just looked at radar mins tonight and they’re no longer showing a PAR. Must have gotten rid of it recently.

Approval is all dependent on branch / facility and it varies on who you ask. We had this restriction so we rarely had any civil aircraft doing approaches.

 

[rosssr20]

McGuire does them for GA upon request. They only clear you for the low approach so don’t touch down. Sometimes they take a bit of time to find someone in the room who can do it and other times they put a trainee in there which can be amusing.

Ask for no gyro as an added complexity.

I highly recommend doing them!

 

[bluesky74656]

My instructor had me do an ASR at the local ANG base during my training. I could tell the controller was either new or wasn’t used to the speed of athe mighty 172. I spent ages flying into the crosswind getting on the centerline, then he gave me a turn to the runway heading, no crosswind correction at all. We were immediately blown off course and spent the next couple minutes getting steeper and steeper intercept vectors until we finally got back on course. It was a good lesson in situational awareness for me because I didn’t see the problem coming before I turned. My instructor thought it was hilarious, though.

 

[Ventucky Red]

Tried it into Pt Mugu once long time ago and was denied... others tell me they have gotten it and had to break off before hitting PCH. Urban legend... maybe!