Practical penalties for violations?

deyoung

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Chris
Discussions in other threads lead me to wonder... what are the real, extended penalties for blowing off the rules in various ways?

Say I lose my medical and can't fly legally, for example. But I have a plane and I know how to be professional with ATC and otherwise not draw attention, so I keep flying. Probably no one will know or care for awhile, anyway?

Let's say I get busted doing that for some reason, and the FAA pulls my ticket permanently. Ok... so I keep flying anyway, now without any legality at all.

And I get busted again -- what happens now? Is that a criminal violation, maybe at the Federal level, eligible for jail time? (One would think so.)

Just wondering how this goes, taken out to the end?
 
You can root around in the NTSB appeals decision database to get an idea what the FAA issues for the various infractions. If you look in the case files, you can see what they initially propose and what it ends up being after the administrative law judge takes a look at it and after the full board reviews it. As an appeals database, it selects for the more serious cases. If someone gets a stern letter with a warning or a 30 day suspension, they are less likely to appeal than if they get an emergency revocation. If you look at the cases, there is rarely one where only a single violation is charged. Its rare to see 'flew to a pancake breakfast with the medical expired by 2 weeks'. Its the 'flew without a medical for hire for 2 years and presented a forged first class when the safety inspector showed up' cases that tend to make it up the chain in the appeals process.

https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/_layouts/ntsb.common.onoweb/query.aspx

The criminal cases don't show up in the NTSB appeals database. They are not part of the enforcement process but go through the US attorneys office. I guess you could search for press releases from the US attorneys offices and then look up the cases in PACER (the federal courts database).

There are some guidelines of what the FAA asks for on particular violations. I believe it may be in the handbook for aviation safety inspectors. Its mostly suspensions, 60, 90, 180 days etc.
 
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Order 2150.3B - FAA Compliance and Enforcement Program has tables for presumptive penalty ranges for various violations.

For the criminal penalties, I forget them offhand. In most of the cases I've seen, first offense is usually light - a fine - with the goal being more about finally getting the guy's attention. later offenses tend to get at least some jail time.
 
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Arthur Godfrey (look him up) flew for 20+ years without a medical, he even set a world record in a Lear jet.
 
There was a guy I heard was flying a kingair 350 for someone without a commercial multi engine and without a type rating. He got caught and the FAA just said don’t do it again.
 
There was a guy I heard was flying a kingair 350 for someone without a commercial multi engine and without a type rating. He got caught and the FAA just said don’t do it again.
That’s the thing that is interesting. They can say you can’t fly but the can’t stop
You from flying. It’s not like they are going to put u in jail right?
Does the FAA have any authority to just take a plane or lock the props for a repeat offender???
 
I have been looking for it online, but I remember reading an article about a pilot that was caught flying without a certificate. After the third time he was caught it became a matter in a courtroom. The results were that the offending pilot was fined and his plane was confiscated and sold at auction.

In Alaska I knew a person that flew without a certificate. But he had other problems like selling certain things without a prescription. His plane was confiscated and sold as he used it to deliver merchandise.
 
An ALJ can issue a fine directly from the bench. We see this in FCC enforcement issues all the time. And then they can garnish wages, etc. FCC fines usually start at $10,000 and go up rapidly from there.
 
Doesn't lying on a medical app get stiffer penalties than just flying without one?
 
Doesn't lying on a medical app get stiffer penalties than just flying without one?

Pretty much. One is a 'get your medical and if you keep your nose clean for two years we'll forget about it'. The other is a federal crime.
 
I think (but certainly don't know) that a PPL GA guy flying without a medical, like for years, or no BFR, etc. probably isn't high on the FAAs list of stuff to worry about.

If you do so, and crash, or otherwise bring attention on yourself, the FAA has their butt covered - you broke the rules, and it's not thier fault.

As much as I kick the FAA around, it kinda makes sense - they have bigger issues to spend resources on, and if something isn't a frequent and recurring problem, or politically important. . .
 
https://disciplesofflight.com/flying-without-a-license-pilot-conmen/

Had a Fed ask for my license after the Jimmie Lane incident and he said that they now have to physically see it for rides. One other note on this subject....If a Fed says to let him have your license for a ramp check, check ride etc. hand it over with this statement...."I am not surrendering my license but I am letting you see it"....I had a Fed come on board my plane one day to do a quick ramp check and said "Let me see you license and medical", which I complied with while we were preparing for the next leg. He started to get up and told me "Hope you had a good career because it is over". Now he had my FULL attention and I said "What are you talking about" and he replied "you just surrendered you license and your no longer a pilot"....I just looked at him and said "You have to get off the plane intact before you can take it" and he smiled and said "I just taught you something....NEVER EVER just hand over your license without stating that your not surrendering it". True story.
 
https://disciplesofflight.com/flying-without-a-license-pilot-conmen/

Had a Fed ask for my license after the Jimmie Lane incident and he said that they now have to physically see it for rides. One other note on this subject....If a Fed says to let him have your license for a ramp check, check ride etc. hand it over with this statement...."I am not surrendering my license but I am letting you see it"....I had a Fed come on board my plane one day to do a quick ramp check and said "Let me see you license and medical", which I complied with while we were preparing for the next leg. He started to get up and told me "Hope you had a good career because it is over". Now he had my FULL attention and I said "What are you talking about" and he replied "you just surrendered you license and your no longer a pilot"....I just looked at him and said "You have to get off the plane intact before you can take it" and he smiled and said "I just taught you something....NEVER EVER just hand over your license without stating that your not surrendering it". True story.

The funny thing is, they don’t need to see it. They just need the spelling of your name. They aren’t supposed to trust the plastic certificate is valid anymore and they’re issued tablets and cellular data. They’re supposed to check airman records in real time from the database whenever possible.

An inspector who used to hang out here confirmed this for ramp checks many years ago. They’ll usually look up the pilot and the aircraft airworthiness certificate digitally.

If they ask for the plastic it’s either just to get your name right for entry into the tablet, or it’s probably not a very formal check and likely cursory. Of course the tablet could be dead or the cell data not working so you can’t count on it, but mostly true. But if they’re serious they’ll have the tablet out and on.

And they don’t need you to surrender it to make it invalid either of course. Works both ways. Same deal, they change the database, you’re done, wherever your plastic is, with you or with them.

Anybody who needs to know if you’re a certificate holder is encouraged not to give a crap about the plastic anymore either. Database is King. Look it up online always.
 
That’s the thing that is interesting. They can say you can’t fly but the can’t stop
You from flying. It’s not like they are going to put u in jail right?
The FAA can't put you in jail, but the US Justice Department and the courts can and have. Flying without a license/certificate is not just a violation of the FAR. It is also a federal crime.
 
https://disciplesofflight.com/flying-without-a-license-pilot-conmen/

Had a Fed ask for my license after the Jimmie Lane incident and he said that they now have to physically see it for rides. One other note on this subject....If a Fed says to let him have your license for a ramp check, check ride etc. hand it over with this statement...."I am not surrendering my license but I am letting you see it"....I had a Fed come on board my plane one day to do a quick ramp check and said "Let me see you license and medical", which I complied with while we were preparing for the next leg. He started to get up and told me "Hope you had a good career because it is over". Now he had my FULL attention and I said "What are you talking about" and he replied "you just surrendered you license and your no longer a pilot"....I just looked at him and said "You have to get off the plane intact before you can take it" and he smiled and said "I just taught you something....NEVER EVER just hand over your license without stating that your not surrendering it". True story.
Maybe a true story about some cowboy ASI, but a myth about the surrender process. He may even think he has that authority but he doesn't.

You cannot surrender your pilot certificate for cancelation by simply handing it to an ASI when requested. The process for voluntary surrender isn't particularly complicated but it is formal, requiring a written statement from the pilot specifically saying he or she is surrendering the certificate. Forced surrender is even more formal.

Besides, the older version of the myth is better - never even let go of the certificate. Make sure it is always in your hand. Hold it up and force the ASI to use binoculars while singing "Can't touch this."
 
And if the formal surrender process hasn't been followed, I presume that you could just request a replacement. I think that includes an option to get them to fax (or email?) you a temporary one.
 
And if the formal surrender process hasn't been followed, I presume that you could just request a replacement. I think that includes an option to get them to fax (or email?) you a temporary one.
"Reason for request: Theft. ASI Smith stole my certificate during a ramp check." :D
 
Ok guys. Very simple. I told you exactly what happened and what was said but I didn’t say when. For me, it was in the early 90’s and it was PAPER not plastic. This was PRE TABLETS. You guys do know that not everything happened in the digital world don’t you? It was a different era.

It’s about the principle of what happened....

You do know that we used to use the latest technology and shoot NDB approaches into TCA’s.
 
Ok guys. Very simple. I told you exactly what happened and what was said but I didn’t say when. For me, it was in the early 90’s and it was PAPER not plastic. This was PRE TABLETS. You guys do know that not everything happened in the digital world don’t you? It was a different era.

It’s about the principle of what happened....

You do know that we used to use the latest technology and shoot NDB approaches into TCA’s.
Not sure what paper vs plastic has to do with it. On the "when
One other note on this subject....If a Fed says to let him have your license for a ramp check, check ride etc. hand it over with this statement...."I am not surrendering my license but I am letting you see it"
at least sounds like yo are giving current advice.

I do not dispute for a moment that it happened exactly as you said. Just that the "principle" that handing your pilot certificate to an ASI when requested without constitutes a surrender is nonsense. Now, if you are saying the "principle" is that there are a few ASIs here and there who (just like some LEOs) abuse their power, exceed there authority, or have no idea what the rules actually require, I'll agree 100% with you.
 
Yes, there are ASI’s that abuse their “power” and the entire reason for my first reply was to point out that words matter. The EXACT words spoken during my encounter was .... I need to see your license and I handed it to him and I said “Here it is”. That could be construed as “I am giving it to you”. Asinine? Yes but with lawyers floating around looking for money it is not inconceivable. Nonsense? To normal people probably but with a fed?

The paper vs plastic was only to point out it was in a different era and surprise surprise, the FAA hasn’t always been “less punitive” as they are now. Most here haven’t operated under the old “shoot first” time of FAA.

Let’s eat Grandma
Let’s eat, Grandma
 
Amazing how the myth of handing an Inspector a certificate constitutes "surrender" still exist. o_O

How it actually works:

Order 8900.1, Vol 5, Chapter 2, Section 5

5-320 VOLUNTARY SURRENDER OF CERTIFICATE OR RATING. An ASI may only accept an application for voluntary surrender, or “downgrading,” of a pilot certificate or rating in accordance with § 61.27. No certificate or rating may be accepted for surrender or downgrading unless the applicant submits a request in writing and fully understands that he or she has no reinstatement rights.

A. Conditions for Surrender. There are four basic conditions for the surrender of an airman certificate or rating:

1) Voluntary surrender unrelated to an enforcement case;

2) Voluntary surrender in anticipation of FAA certificate action;

3) Voluntary temporary deposit of an airman certificate to the custody of the FSDO when an airman’s competency has been questioned by the FAA and the enforcement action or reexamination is justifiably delayed; and

4) Surrender at the Office of the Chief Counsel (AGC) attorney’s request.

B. Reason for Surrender. An FAA ASI may not accept an airman certificate unless the reason for surrender is identified. Surrender of that certificate must be in accordance with procedures described in this order. Under no circumstance may a pilot certificate be accepted for voluntary surrender unless the ASI immediately contacts AGC and explains the facts and circumstances concerning the surrender. The airman certificate may be accepted only with the concurrence of, and in accordance with, the directions of the attorney with AGC. Legal enforcement cases involving the surrender of an airman certificate must be forwarded to the FAA attorney for processing no later than 5 business-days after the date of certificate surrender.

1) If no enforcement action is pending or being contemplated under § 61.27, an airman may, for personal reasons, voluntarily surrender the certificate to the FAA for the purpose of cancellation of the certificate, reissuance of the certificate at a lower grade, or reissuance of the certificate with specific ratings deleted.

a) An airman may have many reasons for voluntarily surrendering or exchanging a certificate. One reason could be that the FAA has questioned the pilot’s competency, and the airman is to be reexamined under Title 49 of the United States Code (49 U.S.C.) § 44709. In this instance, the airman may elect to surrender the certificate or rating, in writing, in lieu of submitting to reexamination (see Figure 5-22, Letter of Surrender (In Lieu of a Reexamination)).

b) When an airman elects to surrender the certificate as described above, the ASI may accept the certificate, along with a letter of surrender signed by the airman (see Figure 5-23, Letter of Voluntary Surrender) and the accompanying acknowledgement letter signed by the FAA employee. The certificate, the original Temporary Airman Certificate (FAA Form 8060-4), the application for the issuance of a modified certificate (FAA Form 8710-1), and the letter of surrender should be forwarded to the Airmen Certification Branch.

c) The surrender letter must clearly spell out the incident or event and the airman’s involvement. The letter should state that the airman has been apprised of his or her legal rights and clearly state the voluntary nature of the surrender in view of these rights. The letter may not be conditional and must be patterned after Figure 5-24, Letter of Surrender (Pending Enforcement Action).

2) An airman may surrender a pilot certificate to the FAA at any stage of an investigation (refer to FAA Order 2150.3, FAA Compliance and Enforcement Program). Great care must be exercised when accepting an airman certificate for surrender when enforcement action is pending.

a) The eventual action of the FAA could possibly be other than certificate action. In addition, AGC may be unable to provide priority handling of such cases (the failure to promptly issue an Order of Suspension or Order of Revocation may impose an undue sanction on the airman).

b) Not only must the surrender be voluntary, but it must also be documented as such. It must be absolutely clear that no FAA coercion was used. For example, if an FAA ASI, during an investigation, told an airman that the airman had violated a regulation, then accepted the certificate for surrender, the action would not appear voluntary. In a legal enforcement case, no FAA ASI has either the authority or responsibility to make such a statement; this is a function of AGC.

c) The airman must be told that any statement the airman makes can and may be used against the airman in legal proceedings, and that the airman need not make any statement without being represented by legal counsel.

d) The airman must be apprised of FAA legal enforcement procedures, as described in 14 CFR part 13, §§ 13.15 and 13.19.

3) An airman may temporarily deposit an airman certificate voluntarily in the custody of a FSDO (for a maximum of 30 calendar-days at a time) while the airman is preparing for a reexamination of competence. The airman must be informed, in the presence of a third person, that the airman is not required to deposit the airman certificate with the FSDO or to sign any statement. This procedure can also be used for an airman convalescing from an accident or an illness, or for a person having the aircraft repaired that is intended to be used for the reexamination flight check.

a) Temporary deposit must never be used to resolve a violation of the regulations (i.e., reexamination is not used as a punishment or as a substitute for enforcement action). A Temporary Airman Certificate with the original certificate number affixed may be issued to the airman to allow solo practice to prepare for reexamination or to continue flying with limitations. In this case, “PASSENGER CARRYING PROHIBITED” or other appropriate limitations should be included (see Figure 5-25, Sample FAA Form 8060-4, Temporary Airman Certificate Showing Passenger Carry Limitation (Maintained at FSDO Level Only)). For example, if instrument competency is questioned, the Temporary Airman Certificate should omit the instrument rating. The same procedure could be used with any rating questioned. In no case should a Student Pilot Certificate be issued to the holder of another Student (or other) Pilot Certificate. The Temporary Airman Certificate issued and the letter of temporary deposit to the FSDO must have the same expiration date (see Figure 5-26, Sample FAA Form 8060-4, Temporary Airman Certificate Emergency Field Issuance (Maintained at FSDO Level Only) and Figure 5-27, Letter of Temporary Deposit). The ASI may issue a new Temporary Airman Certificate for an additional period of 30 calendar-days, provided the airman agrees to such action and submits a new letter of temporary deposit to the FSDO with the appropriate expiration date as described above.

b) If at the end of the expiration date the airman has not passed the reexamination test, fails to appear, or has not made other acceptable arrangements, immediate legal enforcement action (emergency suspension) must be taken to suspend the permanent airman certificate or rating in question until the airman demonstrates competency to hold that certificate.

4) Surrender at the request of AGC is an action taken as the result of an Order of Suspension or Order of Revocation issued by AGC. From time to time, AGC requests the FSDO to pick up a certificate when an airman fails to surrender the certificate as a result of an order from AGC. ASIs should take the following actions:

a) The specific AGC attorney’s instructions should be followed. In most cases, it is requested that an ASI contact the airman to be sure the airman understands that the order demands the surrender of the certificate.

b) The ASI must review the Order of Suspension or Order of Revocation so that the ASI is familiar with the allegations. The ASI should then arrange a meeting with the airman. The ASI should take to the meeting a copy of the Order of Suspension or Order of Revocation, a Loss of Certificate Affidavit (see Figure 5-28, Loss of Certificate Affidavit), and a franked envelope addressed to AGC.

c) When meeting the airman, the ASI should present official identification and inquire if the airman has received the Order of Suspension or Order of Revocation. If the airman has not received a copy, present the airman with a copy. The ASI should point out the action taken in the order and offer to accept the certificate for surrender to the FAA. The ASI may not enter into a discussion as to the authenticity of the facts, evidence, or the propriety of the sanction. The ASI should advise the airman that failure to surrender the certificate within the period of time specified in the order would make the airman subject to additional action.

d) If the airman states that the certificate is lost, the ASI should give the airman the affidavit form and the franked envelope addressed to AGC. The ASI should instruct the airman to complete the affidavit and forward it in lieu of the lost certificate.

e) If the airman does not wish to surrender the certificate to the ASI, the ASI should give the airman the franked envelope addressed to AGC so the airman can forward the certificate to the proper office.

f) If at any time the ASI has any reason to believe that a hostile or dangerous confrontation is likely, the matter must be discussed with AGC before taking the action. When a potentially hazardous confrontation is expected, a U.S. Marshall can accompany the ASI to the meeting with the airman.
 
Yes, there are ASI’s that abuse their “power” and the entire reason for my first reply was to point out that words matter. The EXACT words spoken during my encounter was .... I need to see your license and I handed it to him and I said “Here it is”. That could be construed as “I am giving it to you”. Asinine? Yes but with lawyers floating around looking for money it is not inconceivable. Nonsense? To normal people probably but with a fed?
Yes. It is inconceivable that the FAA would treat that as a voluntary surrender. What an individual ASI might do in excess of his authority is a different question - heck, if we're talking about worrying about a renegade ASI, the words won't work anyway. He might just forcibly take it out of your hand, twirl his mustache, and say, "Heh, heh, heh! It's mine! All mine now!!!"

WhiplashFaa.png

So, if you are in a traffic stop and the LEO asks for your license and registration, do you say, "OK, but I am not surrendering it to you"?
 
Amazing how the myth of handing an Inspector a certificate constitutes "surrender" still exist. o_O

How it actually works:

Order 8900.1, Vol 5, Chapter 2, Section 5
Exactly. But it's so much more fun to believe stories about renegade ASIs and how they are stealing certificates just to make work for lawyers :D
 
Yes. It is inconceivable that the FAA would treat that as a voluntary surrender. What an individual ASI might do in excess of his authority is a different question - heck, if we're talking about worrying about a renegade ASI, the words won't work anyway. He might just forcibly take it out of your hand, twirl his mustache, and say, "Heh, heh, heh! It's mine! All mine now!!!"

View attachment 76482

So, if you are in a traffic stop and the LEO asks for your license and registration, do you say, "OK, but I am not surrendering it to you"?

Let's go a step further. Let's say that an Inspector actually takes the certificate. Now what?

First of all, all the airman has to do is one of 2 things. Call OKC and get a fax to continue and request a replacement. Or, call the office manager of the facility the Inspector works at and demand the return of the certificate.

The Inspector that supposedly took the certificate, what is he going to do with it? He must document the "surrender", and with no signed statement, how does he accomplish this? He can't just throw it in his desk drawer.

Finally, the Inspector is required to "maintain the scope of his employment", which in other words, work inside the guidance and orders to perform his job. As long as he does this, his employer (the Administrator) will back him up legally. If the Inspector goes outside of his scope, he now opens himself up for disciplinary measures as well as civil matters, with no protections offered by his employer.
 
Let's go a step further. Let's say that an Inspector actually takes the certificate. Now what?

First of all, all the airman has to do is one of 2 things. Call OKC and get a fax to continue and request a replacement. Or, call the office manager of the facility the Inspector works at and demand the return of the certificate.
I would do both. I'd order the fax/email replacement so I could be on my way. Then I'd call the FSDO or the hotline to report the theft.
 
A rep from our local FSDO mentioned to me in a casual conversation on this topic the FAA also has the equivalent of "traffic school" for pilots for certain violations to get their license back after some violations for license suspension release.
 
A rep from our local FSDO mentioned to me in a casual conversation on this topic the FAA also has the equivalent of "traffic school" for pilots for certain violations to get their license back after some violations for license suspension release.

Say what? o_O
 
The FAA can't put you in jail, but the US Justice Department and the courts can and have. Flying without a license/certificate is not just a violation of the FAR. It is also a federal crime.

Can you point to the relevant USC statute?
 
https://disciplesofflight.com/flying-without-a-license-pilot-conmen/

Had a Fed ask for my license after the Jimmie Lane incident and he said that they now have to physically see it for rides. One other note on this subject....If a Fed says to let him have your license for a ramp check, check ride etc. hand it over with this statement...."I am not surrendering my license but I am letting you see it"....I had a Fed come on board my plane one day to do a quick ramp check and said "Let me see you license and medical", which I complied with while we were preparing for the next leg. He started to get up and told me "Hope you had a good career because it is over". Now he had my FULL attention and I said "What are you talking about" and he replied "you just surrendered you license and your no longer a pilot"....I just looked at him and said "You have to get off the plane intact before you can take it" and he smiled and said "I just taught you something....NEVER EVER just hand over your license without stating that your not surrendering it". True story.

That is total BS. You do not have to make such a statement if the FAA asks to see your certificate. That is just a persistent silly old wives tale that lingers due to either ignorance or someone trying to scare someone else.
 
Doesn't look like it's relevant. "this part" means "Part A. AIR COMMERCE AND SAFETY", how is it relevant for private flying?
You are looking at the name of the title too narrowly. The entire FAA Act and all of its regulations are based on authority granted to the FAA under that title. Remember that the FAA regulates aviation under the US Constitution's Commerce Clause.

Everything about aviation under the FAA is under that Air Commerce and Safety title.

The FAA's authority to issue you a private pilot certificate? 14 U.S.C. §44702

Your checkrides? 14 U.S.C. § 44703

Have you ever heard of a "709" ride? 14 U.S.C. §44709 (yep that's where the term comes from)

"Air commerce" itself, is defined and includes, amount the things you might think of as commerce " the operation of aircraft within the limits of a Federal airway, or the operation of aircraft that directly affects, or may endanger safety in ... interstate air commerce," which pretty much covers everything we do in an airplane.
 
Close, but that's the catch-all for when there isn't a specific penalty mentioned. Operating without a pilot certificate, and several others, are covered by 14 U.S.C. § 46306:
(b) General Criminal Penalty.—Except as provided by subsection (c) of this section, a person shall be fined under title 18, imprisoned for not more than 3 years, or both, if the person—
(7) knowingly and willfully serves or attempts to serve in any capacity as an airman without an airman's certificate authorizing the individual to serve in that capacity;​
 
Close, but that's the catch-all for when there isn't a specific penalty mentioned. Operating without a pilot certificate, and several others, are covered by 14 U.S.C. § 46306:
(b) General Criminal Penalty.—Except as provided by subsection (c) of this section, a person shall be fined under title 18, imprisoned for not more than 3 years, or both, if the person—
(7) knowingly and willfully serves or attempts to serve in any capacity as an airman without an airman's certificate authorizing the individual to serve in that capacity;​
Even better!
 
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