PPR and Landing Fee Nonsense Again in Vegas for Superbowl

Nick Geber

Nick Geber

Pre-takeoff checklist
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NIckG
They're at it again!

$750 for a Cessna 150 (or light GA) and $3,000 for a Gulfstream (Super Mid)

Robbery!!!!!
 
Nick Geber said:
They’ll all be the same. KHND, KVGT, KLAS
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That’s how they are able to play the equal access card. “We are charging all aircraft of the same type the same fee as our competitors, therefore the access is of equal cost.”
 
Discrimination would be charging different $ for different aircraft in same class. If all piston engines in the same class are charged the same then seems like no discrimination. Best way to combat these high fees it is to not go. If enough boycott them then the rates should go down. If they're violating a law or FAA reg then call them out on it or sick the FAA or whatever regulatory body has jurisdiction on them. Regardless of the fee amount there will always be someone upset about the amount.
 
Fees charged must bear a reasonable relationship to the cost of providing the services.
 
rk911 said:
How is their fee structure not equal access?
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This is the same shenanigans they pulled during F1, sphere opening … basically any event is an excuse. And this is the reason Clark County are in a battle with AOPA
 
rk911 said:
OK, but is that an opinion or chapter and verse from a statute?
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22. Economic Nondiscrimination.

a. It will make the airport available as an airport for public use on reasonable terms and without unjust discrimination to all types, kinds and classes of aeronautical activities, including commercial aeronautical activities offering services to the public at the airport.

Airport Improvement Program Grant Assurances for Airport Sponsors, May 2022

"...reasonable terms..." - ambiguous, yes, but a grant assurance airport is expected to cover its nut, not become a massive profit center (airport revenue is expected to stay with the airport, not be diverted). The presence of a special event does not change what consititutes "reasonable," except to the extent the event actually increases the cost (per user) of operation. With a large volume of additional ops, the cost per operation could actually go down.

Edit: Note - this is mere recital of summary assurances from sponsors to the feds, but there is both rulemaking and statute to back it up. I'm tired, though.
 
SCCutler said:
"Supply and Demand" is not a valid method for a publicly-owned asset. It is (by law) supposed to serve all on a non-discriminatory manner.
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Wait, is that your argument against paid street parking as well? Scarcity of a common good seems perfect for metering via price.

Doesn't mean I like it. Doesn't make these prices sane -- but it appears rubes are paying them, or they'd stop? So fill the city coffers.
 
Tickets for the game, at least on one site, start at over $8000. For end, top section. 50 yard line, lowest section is over $20,000 PER SEAT.

So a 172 with 4 people would be $32,000 for tickets. And hotels will be equally expensive.

$750 for the airport is CHEAP. :)
 
How else do you propose controlling the amount of traffic wanting to fly in?

Even with the fees there will be a large amount of traffic into those airports. Limited slots for landing, limited slots on the ramp, limited ground crews to handle the aircraft, etc.

This is one of those where I can understand the other side of the equation.
 
guest user said:
How else do you propose controlling the amount of traffic wanting to fly in?

Even with the fees there will be a large amount of traffic into those airports. Limited slots for landing, limited slots on the ramp, limited ground crews to handle the aircraft, etc.

This is one of those where I can understand the other side of the equation.
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Simple. Lottery system. Fees need to be enough to cover extra labor costs needed for added traffic. No more.
 
Welcome to Clark County Dept of Aviation. They are the FBO at VGT, HND, 0L7 (Jean) and I believe U08 (Perkins Field). They allow Signature and others to operate at LAS for a princely fee.
 
Nick Geber said:
Simple. Lottery system. Fees need to be enough to cover extra labor costs needed for added traffic. No more.
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Because nobody would want to complain about that, right? I'm not very creative and I can already imagine 14 different ways to complain about that.

At least this way they get something for the complaining they'll have to endure.
 
You know, everybody complains that the government should operate more like a business, until it actually tries to operate more like a business.

LAS can handle X number of aircraft in a given time period and has X of parking spots for VIP events. You would prefer them parking X number of Pipers and Cessnas, or X number of Challengers and Gulfstreams? Which makes the better business case, 10 gallons of Avgas or 100 gallons of Jet-A. Not to mention, the vast majority of ticket holders to such an event aren't flying in 172.

For what its worth, PPRs and fees for Super Bowl cities are nothing new.
 
How high can their labor costs be? They’ll have some extra marshallers and line guys in on overtime, but how high is their pay?
 
Pinecone said:
Tickets for the game, at least on one site, start at over $8000. For end, top section. 50 yard line, lowest section is over $20,000 PER SEAT.

So a 172 with 4 people would be $32,000 for tickets. And hotels will be equally expensive.

$750 for the airport is CHEAP. :)
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…and what if I’m going to visit family, not attend whatever stupid event of the day is going on?

Will they also implement a $1000 toll on the expressway behind Las Vegas blvd? I’d like to see how that would go.
 
Pinecone said:
Tickets for the game, at least on one site, start at over $8000. For end, top section. 50 yard line, lowest section is over $20,000 PER SEAT.

So a 172 with 4 people would be $32,000 for tickets. And hotels will be equally expensive.

$750 for the airport is CHEAP. :)
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That's a whole lotta money just to see the Detroit Lions.
 
Nick Geber said:
Simple. Lottery system. Fees need to be enough to cover extra labor costs needed for added traffic. No more.
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I was thinking along the same lines, but my thought experiment hit a brick wall:

1. How do you handle entries for different plane sizes? Wait until you get all the entries to see the ratio of plane sizes, calculate how many planes you can safely handle and tie down in the same ratio, and then randomly draw? Separate lottery for light single, heavy single, light twin, heavy twin, small jet, large jet, and transport category jet? How would you decide how many slots to allocate to each type? The ratio that came into the area for Formula 1, the mix that the Phoenix area airports saw during last year's Super Bowl, or just guess at it? You definitely can't just award 1,000 slots and let them come in with a plane of their choosing, because if I won a free tie-down at one of those airports I wouldn't be the only person thinking about chartering the biggest plane I can get into that airport instead of showing up in a 172.

2. That brings up secondary assignments of prizes. How do you balance fairness to winners who legitimately change their plans, fairness to losers who could have used the spots left open by the plan-changers, fairness to losers in terms of setting an entry fee, and fairness against rent seeking behavior that would turn into a secondary auction? That secondary auction would essentially turn the lottery into a high-value government handout to the winners. Either they could assign their slots to the highest bidder or they could go with my plan of chartering a big plane to bring in a dozen of my richest, newest friends who happened to have a baker's dozen game tickets on the 50 yard line. In both cases, supply and demand would end up setting the price of a landing slot. The main difference from what they're actually doing would be who cashes in, the city or the lottery winners.

I don't think there is an ideal solution here, and all of the nonideal solutions carry some amount of unavoidable evil. Probably the lowest total social cost would be found by tearing up all the runways and repaving them that weekend.
 
SCCutler said:
22. Economic Nondiscrimination.

a. It will make the airport available as an airport for public use on reasonable terms and without unjust discrimination to all types, kinds and classes of aeronautical activities, including commercial aeronautical activities offering services to the public at the airport.

Airport Improvement Program Grant Assurances for Airport Sponsors, May 2022

"...reasonable terms..." - ambiguous, yes, but a grant assurance airport is expected to cover its nut, not become a massive profit center (airport revenue is expected to stay with the airport, not be diverted). The presence of a special event does not change what consititutes "reasonable," except to the extent the event actually increases the cost (per user) of operation. With a large volume of additional ops, the cost per operation could actually go down.

Edit: Note - this is mere recital of summary assurances from sponsors to the feds, but there is both rulemaking and statute to back it up. I'm tired, though.
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ahhh...ambiguity. Regulations always seem to have a bit of ambiguity in them....I think that's a rule.
 
When the Super Bowl was in Atlanta, multiple airports had PPR's and high fees. RYY, where I was based at the time, hired about 100 part time workers to help with everything from security to escorting passengers etc. My wife worked the weekend and got paid a few hundred dollars and free meals while she was working. All the tie-down aircraft were moved and the place was wall to wall jets. No idea what the fees were, but the costs were MUCH higher for those two days.
 
The general tax paying public doesn't care how much an fbo charges wealthy pilots. Don't forget you I your little cessna are far and away in a better position than the general tax payer in this country. You don't like the price, don't pay it. Just don't act like tax payers even care
 
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dans2992 said:
…and what if I’m going to visit family, not attend whatever stupid event of the day is going on?

Will they also implement a $1000 toll on the expressway behind Las Vegas blvd? I’d like to see how that would go.
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Enjoy the rich cultural delights of Boulder City, Jean, or (lol) Pahrump, depending on how far out the opportunism exists?
 
Hmmm. Does Pahrump have a helo pad? If it does, I bet it's free.
 
Nick Geber said:
Simple. Lottery system. Fees need to be enough to cover extra labor costs needed for added traffic. No more.
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Or, here's a thought .... charge the Super Bowl crowd whatever that market will bear, and use the extra revenue to keep fees lower on normal pilots for the other 51 weekends of the year.
 
Beyond the airport pricing I get the feeling that 2/3 of Vegas is trying to pivot to the higher net worth clientele ... Whether you flew in or drove in.
 
dans2992 said:
…and what if I’m going to visit family, not attend whatever stupid event of the day is going on?
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Indeed, welcome to the club. As a native Caribeño, I've eaten that penalty going on 25 years now. Turns out "we live where you vacation" is not the flex people think it is. Only way I'm getting my mother out of that island is on a pine box, so I get to eat the tourist-trap fare next to the floating pig trough crowd heading straight for Puerto de San Juan right after landing.

It's about the one ledger upside a 121 pivot has going on for me after the mil. That travel benefit alone could be worth a dozen thousand dollars a year, given the stateside city pair we're eyeballing for relocation after the .mil. It's not chump change.
 
I have tickets to the game, taking my mom as that was her Christmas present. Made reservations at KHND 2 months ago, rental car and everything. Got the call this week about $750 landing fee and the economy car I usually rent for $35 a day is $300.

No thanks, I’ll fly into my lake house at KIFP and drive in. I hate Vegas. Despise Vegas. But I am there frequently as my friend lives there and he had a stroke so my wife and I always go see him.
 
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