Power configuration settings in the pattern

MauleSkinner said:
How do you maintain a glideslope if you can’t consistently put yourself on it? How do you touch down in the proper place on a short field if you can’t consistently place yourself on short final to allow that touchdown?
Click to expand...

I think you're putting the cart before the horse here. If you can control the aircraft with precision, the rest comes easy. Too high to make the short field? Slip it in. Low on the VASI, configure to maintain your safe altitude until you're on it then configure for the prescribed descent. If you can consistently fly a 500fpm descent and maintain a heading, you can fly a glide slope.

Sounds to me like you are talking about sight picture. That comes with experience.
Approaches to airports don't all look the same. Some are uphill, some are downhill, some are cut into the top of a hill. Some wide, some narrow, and they look different.
 
Last edited:
MauleSkinner said:
How do you maintain a glideslope if you can’t consistently put yourself on it? How do you touch down in the proper place on a short field if you can’t consistently place yourself on short final to allow that touchdown?
Click to expand...

I dont have to enter a VFR pattern at the exact same place every time to fly the remainder of the pattern precisely, touch down where I want, and make the first turn off every single time. I can enter on up, x cross, down, base, or straight in and still be precise. Just like I don't have to always fly a bomber pattern to fly an ILS.
 
EdFred said:
I dont have to enter a VFR pattern at the exact same place every time to fly the remainder of the pattern precisely, touch down where I want, and make the first turn off every single time. I can enter on up, x cross, down, base, or straight in and still be precise. Just like I don't have to always fly a bomber pattern to fly an ILS.
Click to expand...
It appears that’s not true for the OP.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Sounds to me like you are talking about sight picture. That comes with experience.
Approaches to airports don't all look the same. Some are uphill, some are downhill, some are cut into the top of a hill. Some wide, some narrow, and they look different.
Click to expand...
It appears that’s the problem the OP is having, and his instructor is trying to find a way to make the OP’s landings work.
Jaybird180 said:
My full attention on landing has been on 3 things:
1- Looking outside
2- Airspeed
3- That's about it

I now need to include the altimeter in my scan, and I believe I can improve things if I also had an idea what the VSI was doing during my patterns. I've NEVER looked at it.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Configure the airplane by the numbers as desired for landing, trim for airspeed, adjust power as needed to keep the RWY numbers from sliding up or down the windscreen, or the VASI from changing color, or the gs needle centered. That will work from one mile or 3. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the OP's problem, but I think something's making this harder than it should be.

OP, have you discussed taking an hour with your instructor to make up a "speed card" for your airplane?
 
Last edited:
Just an observation. At my pilot controlled airfield there is a flight school that primarily uses Cirrus aircraft with a couple of C-172s. I'd characterize their standard visual traffic pattern as B-52 size. There's no way they could make the field from anywhere before short final without a fully functioning engine. it pains me to arrive in the pattern behind a student pilot at this school. I'm sorely tempted to turn base and final and land with a Cirrus ahead of me on downwind because the pattern they fly is so frickin huge. I don't ever cut in front of someone established in the pattern but I invariably have to remain at pattern altitude until I've turned final and driven closer to the runway to have any hope of making the runway with an engine failure ir number two to land behind a student at this school.
 
Witmo said:
Just an observation. At my pilot controlled airfield there is a flight school that primarily uses Cirrus aircraft with a couple of C-172s. I'd characterize their standard visual traffic pattern as B-52 size. There's no way they could make the field from anywhere before short final without a fully functioning engine. it pains me to arrive in the pattern behind a student pilot at this school. I'm sorely tempted to turn base and final and land with a Cirrus ahead of me on downwind because the pattern they fly is so frickin huge. I don't ever cut in front of someone established in the pattern but I invariably have to remain at pattern altitude until I've turned final and driven closer to the runway to have any hope of making the runway with an engine failure ir number two to land behind a student at this school.
Click to expand...

I've asked how far they are going downwind, and if they say anything more than "turning base now," I call my base and am off the runway before they are turning final.
 
EdFred said:
Not when you're right.

Had that experience with 2 different CFIs. One said I couldn't power off 180 the Arrow from where we were at. Said we'd come up short. I disagreed. Had 300' of runway behind us when I touched down. He didn't say anything after that. The other said you can't use flaps to slip and lose altitude on a check ride. I disagreed. DPE reamed him a new one for that nonsense.

(I had more hours than either of them at the time)

Grow a set and stand up for yourself already. CFI's aren't Jesus, and they don't preach the gospel. I tell this to all my students.
Click to expand...
My comment: apparently you missed the sarcasm.
 
Here's a little clarification about what's happening, but I also need to pull a few punches for the sake of anonymity.

Most of my flying has been at what many pilots have called "short fields"- drop it in behind the trees and get it on speed and stopped in 600ish feet to make the turnoff. I'm ignorant and didn't know any better that people at "normal airports" have been doing long finals, "dragging in" with power and at nearly cruise speeds. I'm used to coming in high and descending quick...but it's time that I get more used to what 3deg looks like and be setup for that as soon as I turn final.

That's about all we planned to focus on, precision flying in the VFR pattern. Keeping legs parallel, turns perpendicular and descent rates constant...winds be damned! Fly it like the winds are always 000. Now, it just so happens that I'm flying at non-standard airports, so using predictable, known power settings won't work to get the level of precision being asked of me- so this is where I come to seek more knowledge: my friends at POA.

I haven't been able to fly IRL since making this post with weather and work schedule interfering, but I did manage to get a quick flight on a friend's MSFS2022 and have since decided to buy my own gear (since I have some of the hardware already- XBox).

Why this subforum? Simple- it's where you can expect to see data/ discussions about pitch/power/performance, glideslope maintenance...precisions stuff that's above ACS standards. I got my ticket during the PTS days...when we could full stall the airplane, power-on stall meant you were seated like the space shuttle and slow flight meant the stall horn was blaring during the 30 degree turns and you learned to hold it there by feel.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Here's a little clarification about what's happening, but I also need to pull a few punches for the sake of anonymity.

Most of my flying has been at what many pilots have called "short fields"- drop it in behind the trees and get it on speed and stopped in 600ish feet to make the turnoff. I'm ignorant and didn't know any better that people at "normal airports" have been doing long finals, "dragging in" with power and at nearly cruise speeds. I'm used to coming in high and descending quick...but it's time that I get more used to what 3deg looks like and be setup for that as soon as I turn final.

That's about all we planned to focus on, precision flying in the VFR pattern. Keeping legs parallel, turns perpendicular and descent rates constant...winds be damned! Fly it like the winds are always 000. Now, it just so happens that I'm flying at non-standard airports, so using predictable, known power settings won't work to get the level of precision being asked of me- so this is where I come to seek more knowledge: my friends at POA.

I haven't been able to fly IRL since making this post with weather and work schedule interfering, but I did manage to get a quick flight on a friend's MSFS2022 and have since decided to buy my own gear (since I have some of the hardware already- XBox).

Why this subforum? Simple- it's where you can expect to see data/ discussions about pitch/power/performance, glideslope maintenance...precisions stuff that's above ACS standards. I got my ticket during the PTS days...when we could full stall the airplane, power-on stall meant you were seated like the space shuttle and slow flight meant the stall horn was blaring during the 30 degree turns and you learned to hold it there by feel.
Click to expand...

I home at a 5000' strip and my goal is to still roll out of base to final and only have about 5-10 seconds before the wheels go chirp chirp. And I'm definitely not worried about a 3 degree sight picture. And I do fly ILS/LPV and all that jazz, but once I'm on the pattern the whole 3 degree sight picture is out the window. Pattern work != IFR work.

Just because you're at a field with a long runway doesn't mean you need to fly long finals.
 
EdFred said:
I home at a 5000' strip and my goal is to still roll out of base to final and only have about 5-10 seconds before the wheels go chirp chirp. And I'm definitely not worried about a 3 degree sight picture. And I do fly ILS/LPV and all that jazz, but once I'm on the pattern the whole 3 degree sight picture is out the window. Pattern work != IFR work.

Just because you're at a field with a long runway doesn't mean you need to fly long finals.
Click to expand...
I'm doing it the way the CFI wants it done and I think I've become a better stick and rudder in exchange for my patience. Will I continue doing it this way?...probably mostly, and I see the merits. I'll leave it there.
Example: we were supposed to fly today, but ....can't! and it's going to throw off my schedule AGAIN. This isn't the end of the world, but it is showing me a thing or 2 about S&!T I don't control and learning to accept what I do vs don't control.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I'm ignorant and didn't know any better that people at "normal airports" have been doing long finals, "dragging in" with power and at nearly cruise speeds.
Click to expand...
What on earth do you mean by dragging in with power at nearly cruise speeds?

You can’t drag it in with power and be nearly at cruise speed.
 
Fearless Tower said:
What on earth do you mean by dragging in with power at nearly cruise speeds?

You can’t drag it in with power and be nearly at cruise speed.
Click to expand...
I guess my brand of sarcasm doesn’t translate well to the medium.
 
No sarcasm. I believe "simulated engine failure to full stop landing" should be on the private pilot checkride. I'm willing to bet that there are pilots out there who've never done it, and who are scared of it. It's one thing to fly giant patterns because you want to, or you're practicing instrument glide slopes, but it should not be...in my opinion...because you don't know how to do it any other way.

It's not a big deal to learn to do this in any single engine prop trainer I've ever heard of.
 
I’ve experienced simulated engine out and flap failure to a full landing. I also experienced real-world CB failure to a landing, but turns out that one was just the landing light….and it was daytime
 
Since OP has clarified that it isn’t an IFR related issue, can the Mods move this out of the Cleared for the Approach forum?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top