Possible to get IR with GPS only?

[MountainDude]

If someone has a plane with a WAAS GPS, but no DME or VORs, is it possible to get an instrument rating in it and never learn the non-GPS way?
I understand the advantages of VOR/DME approaches, but that is not the question.
Thank you

 

[midwestpa24]

Without a VOR receiver, you have no ability for an ILS. Last I knew you still have to do an ILS for the precision approach.

 

[Clip4]

Without a VOR receiver, you have no ability for an ILS. Last I knew you still have to do an ILS for the precision approach.

You do realize all VOR receivers don’t have LOC and/or an ILS indicator?

 

[luvflyin]

Without a VOR receiver, you have no ability for an ILS. Last I knew you still have to do an ILS for the precision approach.

I think an LPV with DA of 300’ or less satisfies the precision approach requirement.

 

[tonycondon]

I think an LPV with DA of 300’ or less satisfies the precision approach requirement.

True but you still need to do two non-precision approaches using different navaids. So yes you need something in the plane besides a GPS.

 

[midwestpa24]

You do realize all VOR receivers don’t have LOC and/or an ILS indicator?

Yes, but without a VOR receiver, you have none of the above period.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Without a VOR receiver, you have no ability for an ILS. Last I knew you still have to do an ILS for the precision approach.

With a WAAS Navigator your problem is not having what you need for a precision approach. You need to think about what you will use for a non precision approach. Some WAAS navigators don’t have a NAV, VLOC receiver. A 420 WAASwouldbe an example.

The inverse of this example is having a non WAAS 420 means you can do a non precision approach with the box, but need a NAV radio for the precision approach.

 

[benyflyguy]

True but you still need to do two non-precision approaches using different navaids. So yes you need something in the plane besides a GPS.

Only mentioned not VOR or DMe. But if ADF is working could do an ole NDB approach right? If you can find one out there.

 

[luvflyin]

True but you still need to do two non-precision approaches using different navaids. So yes you need something in the plane besides a GPS.

Yeah. I doubt if there’s many planes out there with GPS Navigators without a NAV in them. Like a 430 or a 530. Installing a 400 or 420 in plane that didn’t already have a NAV wouldn’t make much sense.

 

[Ryan F.]

The short answer is no. Review Appendix 7: Aircraft, Equipment, and Operational Requirements & Limitations in the Instrument Rating - Airplane ACS.

Longer answer:

Additionally, knowledge element IR.VI.A.K3 in Task VI.A. Nonprecision Approach states that the applicant demonstrates understanding of... "Ground-based and satellite-based navigation systems used for a nonprecision approach." Task VI.B. Precision Approach, knowledge element IR.VI.B.K3 states the applicant must demonstrate understanding of... "Ground-based and satellite-based navigation (orientation, course determination, equipment, tests and regulations, interference, appropriate use of navigation data, signal integrity)." There are other references to ground-based navigation in other Tasks within the ACS.

Of course, that's only speaking to the Instrument Rating - Airplane practical test itself. 14 CFR 61.65(d)(2)(ii)(c) requires "Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems... " on the 250nm cross country instrument training flight.

Therefore, it's not currently possible to meet the aeronautical experience requirements of 61.65(d) purely in an aircraft equipped with an IFR-certified GPS, and no other form of navigation equipment installed. Nor is such an aircraft acceptable for an applicant to present for an IRA practical test.

(To avoid confusion, a GNS430, for example, contains an IFR GPS along with LOC/VOR. A GNC355 is a GPS/COM only.)

 

[Trogdor]

I think an LPV with DA of 300’ or less satisfies the precision approach requirement.

I thought LPV was still technically a non-precision approach?

 

[benyflyguy]

I thought LPV was still technically a non-precision approach?

For the intent of a check ride it can be used as a precision approach.
But for planning purposes of alternate min then it is a non-precision approach

 

[Piper18O]

Just to clarify, if you had a single WAAS GNS430 or a single WAAS Avidyne IFD440 that had a vor antenna hooked up to it, you would be fine, correct?

 

[Ryan F.]

Just to clarify, if you had a single WAAS GNS430 or a single WAAS Avidyne IFD440 that had a vor antenna hooked up to it, you would be fine, correct?

Potentially.

For the practical test, the applicant would need (at minimum):

- a charted, available RNAV approach featuring LPV DA of equal to or less than 300 feet HAT
- a charted, available RNAV approach which meets the ACS requirements of the non-precision approach task
- a charted, available VOR approach
- correctly and legally installed equipment in the aircraft to be presented

 

[Trogdor]

For the intent of a check ride it can be used as a precision approach.
But for planning purposes of alternate min then it is a non-precision approach

That’s because for planning purposes of an alt you must base it on LNAV, right?

 

[somorris]

"Ground-based and satellite-based navigation systems used for a nonprecision approach." Task VI.B. Precision Approach, knowledge element IR.VI.B.K3 states the applicant must demonstrate understanding of... "Ground-based and satellite-based navigation (orientation, course determination, equipment, tests and regulations, interference, appropriate use of navigation data, signal integrity)." There are other references to ground-based navigation in other Tasks within the ACS.

Hmm. Maybe I am missing something(?), but reading this it looks like you would have to have GPS installed, since the wording says "Ground based and satellite-based..." I know that wasn't the question here, but there was a thread a few days ago about taking an IR checkride with no GPS installed. Sometimes, the more I read the more confused I get! I'm just glad I took the checkride before GPS was so prevalent.

 

[somorris]

On second thought, maybe an applicant just has to demonstrate knowledge, not necessarily use.

 

[tonycondon]

if an ifr gps is installed, it has to have a current database and a gps approach has to be demonstrated...

 

[NoHeat]

If someone has a plane with a WAAS GPS, but no DME or VORs

You could do your instrument checkride in two planes. Most of the checkride in your own plane, then a VOR or ILS approach in a rental plane. Not as cheap as doing it all in your plane, but maybe better than doing the training entirely in a rental plane that’s unlike your own.

Lack of DME is not a factor because it’s normal to replace DME with GPS, on approaches that specify DME.

Just curious, after you get a rating, if you’re in IMC and GPS is jammed, what’s your plan? VOR is the navigation backup for most of us instrument pilots who rely on GPS.