Pinecone
En-Route
In that case, you had a very good idea why it happened, so you jumped ahead.
Possible Dangers of Memory Flying
- Thread starter Jaybird180
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In that case, you had a very good idea why it happened, so you jumped ahead.
Chip Sylverne
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Quit with the negative waves, man.
Yeah, but you've still got controls free AND correct.
wanttaja
En-Route
And radio to the right frequency, and transponder on, and ADS-B on, and goggles on, and....
Ron Wanttaja
Sluggo63
Pattern Altitude
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Sluggo63
Times and ideas are changing. At least in the airline world. I think the HF (Human Factors) gurus are realizing that even when Immediate Action Items/Bold Face/Red Box Items/Phase Ones (whatever they're called where you fly) are drilled into your head ad infinitum there's a good chance you'll screw it up under pressure. I know we are following other airlines leads with going to a QRC (Quick Reference Card) which is readily accessible and has the Immediate Action Items printed on them. You do the IAIs from the card, then go into the QRH (Quick Reference Handbook-i.e. checklist) to do the cleanup items.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Was he reading them off the screen himself, or did he use the feature where it will read them to you?
Not entirely. I think the 172S PIM has boldface items, and I'm sure it's not the only one.
The real issue is that, at this point, the average GA plane is 40-50 years old, and so are its procedures. Unless someone goes through the process of creating their own checklist and adding those boldface items, they won't have them. I'm not sure when boldface items became a thing, but I'm guessing it was sometime in the 80s or 90s as I've never seen an older PIM that had them... And again, that represents most of the GA fleet.
It is definitely not the norm even on newer aircraft, though, probably because it isn't FAA required. I have quite a collection of PDF PIMs, and aircraft like the Cirrus SR22; Diamond DA-20, 40, 42, and 62; and other newer ones don't have boldface items. In fact, even the CJ4 and Hawker 800XP didn't have any. The King Airs do, as does the G-36 Bonanza, but their older BE-58P does not. So, some manufacturers have clearly embraced it now that it's a thing, while others haven't.
kaiser
Pattern Altitude
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The pilot formerly known as Cool Beard Guy
I'm a huge fan of the ForeFlight checklist - but yeah also fly the plane. FF is easily customized and helps me keep track of where I am. E.g. sometimes on the descent checklist ATC interrupts you - now where was I?
I definitely subscribe to the flow then check method but absolutely step through each checklist item, since flows aren't perfect. I also review and optimize the checklists so they match the flow to which I'm accustomed. Fan of GUMPS? rewrite your before landing checklist in that order and put in a couple extra landing gear checks! Worried about elevator trim? put it in a few extra places pre-take off! (I have it in 3 spots before taking the runway, Acceptance, Before Start, and Runup)
That being said, most checklists from AFM/POH are terrible and require significant customization. Brakes Hold.. really? for a runup? inconceivable!
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
I think part of the problem (at least from my perspective) is that the drilling stops before pilots can even see ad infinitum from where they are.
Another issue is that the airplane doesn’t present the problem as “What are the immediate action items for a pitch trim runaway?” Or use voice commands that are verbatim from the checklist to accomplish them.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Very true on both counts. It seems like the vast majority of emergency checklists in planes that might be flown by pros seem to be driven by (EI)CAS. X message shows up, perform this checklist.
I do have a small block of warning lights that can come on in the Mooney, but they represent a tiny fraction of what might go wrong with the airplane, and several are just informational (BOOST PUMP, PITOT HEAT, SPEED BRAKE, etc).
Pinecone
En-Route
I can see that. But I know in the military, we had to do a bold face test every week before you flew. They were so drilled into you, that by the time your brain realised something was wrong, you had already run the bold face.
Pinecone
En-Route
Fore Flight can "read" the checklist. I use MiraChek, which reads them and you can reply to them using blue tooth, so it checks them off.
Sluggo63
Pattern Altitude
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Sluggo63
Oh. I know. I was a member of Uncle Sam's Flying Circus for 25 years. A bunch of those as a UPT IP (T-37s). I've written out a couple lifetimes worth of Ops Limits and Boldface. I've also given enough EP sims to realize that no matter how many times we write out Boldface sitting at a desk at 1G and 0 knots, that it doesn't always translate to perfect performance. I've seen my fair share of Boldface screwed up, both in the sim and in the jet. And lets face it (at least in the big airplane world), there's not much stuff that has to be done RIGHT NOW that you don't have time for taking out a card and actually reading the initial steps to a Boldface procedure. Even in little airplane world there's not much, and usually those are self-evident (HANDGRIPS-RAISE / TRIGGERS-SQUEEZE and OXYGEN-ON/100%).
In fact, I'm sure you heard in throughout your AF flying... what's the first step during an emergency? Wind the clock.
Even with all the daily morning standup EP recitation and weekly Boldface scribbling, I'm not sure we should totally rely on someone's memory to perform those steps correctly, especially under duress.
Pinecone
En-Route
Again, my experience is, when something happens, my body does the bold face while my mind is still wondering WTF?!
And then, YES, wind the clock.
The bold face were always things that you kind of needed to do now, not after thinking or looking them up. Although, some were not. But in T aircraft, I suspect they had some just to have them.
And then, YES, wind the clock.
The bold face were always things that you kind of needed to do now, not after thinking or looking them up. Although, some were not. But in T aircraft, I suspect they had some just to have them.
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Velocity173
Always thought it was interesting the differences in civ vs military and checklist usage. Boldface has a lot weight in military parlance but for most civ ops, not so much. In my current job, I have no requirement to memorize EPs but yet in the Army those items had to be memorized down cold because the flight manual required it. Same as most limitations. For my civ flying, as long as it’s “in the green” I’m good to go. Much mo simpler.
thebruce
Pre-takeoff checklist
I had an aero prof say much the same thing about the use of obscure greek word roots for engineering phenomena (for example "phugoid"). Ten years later I had a law professor who said "we us latin to keep the scum confused." Neither was particularly self-aware.One of my electrical engineering professors referred to professional jargon as an example of "one-upmanship on one's fellow man."