Popup or Call FSS?

Llewtrah381 said:
Just curious: given all else you say, why not file IFR? I pretty much always do since there’s more commitment by ATC to me (I’ve been dumped while on FF short of my destination lots of times).
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My op specs do not require it.
 
I know in some areas, FSS can communicate over VOR’s. Not sure about Center. Being able to air file may also depend on where and how high you are.

Interesting question and discussion!
 
Velocity173 said:
I think this para hints at getting all flight plan info for SAR purposes.


View attachment 106596
Now for terminal? That’s a little more gray. No requirement that I know of. I’ve heard it many times over the air before though. Like this controller, I only did it for aircraft leaving my airspace.

https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/pop-up-ifr/
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It sounds like some Controllers are taking
Velocity173 said:
I think this para hints at getting all flight plan info for SAR purposes.


View attachment 106596
Now for terminal? That’s a little more gray. No requirement that I know of. I’ve heard it many times over the air before though. Like this controller, I only did it for aircraft leaving my airspace.

https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/pop-up-ifr/
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If it meant get it from the pilot, it would say get it from the pilot. But it doesn’t. It just says record what the pilot gives you. And seeing as how it’s always voice recorded, all they gotta do is put a time on the strip. Why that’s EN ROUTE specific and not both, I dunno, doesn’t make sense to me. But it does seem some Controllers take it as some kind of hint to pry an every box filled Flight Plan out of the pilot. Maybe someone should give them a hint to learn about…
ABBREVIATED IFR FLIGHT PLANS− An
authorization by ATC requiring pilots to submit only
that information needed for the purpose of ATC. It
includes only a small portion of the usual IFR flight
plan information. In certain instances, this may be
only aircraft identification, location, and pilot
request. Other information may be requested if
needed by ATC for separation/control purposes. It is
frequently used by aircraft which are airborne and
desire an instrument approach or by aircraft which are
on the ground and desire a climb to VFR-on-top.
 
luvflyin said:
It sounds like some Controllers are taking

If it meant get it from the pilot, it would say get it from the pilot. But it doesn’t. It just says record what the pilot gives you. And seeing as how it’s always voice recorded, all they gotta do is put a time on the strip. Why that’s EN ROUTE specific and not both, I dunno, doesn’t make sense to me. But it does seem some Controllers take it as some kind of hint to pry an every box filled Flight Plan out of the pilot. Maybe someone should give them a hint to learn about…
ABBREVIATED IFR FLIGHT PLANS− An
authorization by ATC requiring pilots to submit only
that information needed for the purpose of ATC. It
includes only a small portion of the usual IFR flight
plan information. In certain instances, this may be
only aircraft identification, location, and pilot
request. Other information may be requested if
needed by ATC for separation/control purposes. It is
frequently used by aircraft which are airborne and
desire an instrument approach or by aircraft which are
on the ground and desire a climb to VFR-on-top.
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Yeah, like the controller in the article I applied “Abbreviated IFR Flight Plans” in the same manner. If an aircraft was staying in my airspace and requested an IAP, I didn’t type him into the FDIO and I didn’t get SAR data. I got the min info, typed him into the ARTS and did a handwritten strip.

I think most of it comes from facility memos and not the .65. Obviously not everything the controller does is dictated by the .65. At my brother’s facility, they had a memo requiring a minimum read back of an altitude when issuing a departure clearance. That was a GENOT cancelled long ago and it’s not in the .65 but they required it locally.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah, like the controller in the article I applied “Abbreviated IFR Flight Plans” in the same manner. If an aircraft was staying in my airspace and requested an IAP, I didn’t type him into the FDIO and I didn’t get SAR data. I got the min info, typed him into the ARTS and did a handwritten strip.

I think most of it comes from facility memos and not the .65. Obviously not everything the controller does is dictated by the .65. At my brother’s facility, they had a memo requiring a minimum read back of an altitude when issuing a departure clearance. That was a GENOT cancelled long ago and it’s not in the .65 but they required it locally.
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Yeah. It’s often about the ‘culture’ at individual facilities.
 
Radar Contact said:
Stupid simple. If on FF especially. All I do is push the IFR button and click on you. Change your code and providing you have 1000/3 from another IFR, clear you immediately. If not I’ll give you a heading and/or alt to get it asap. If you are inadvertent I will move the IFR ASAP and give you the clearance. I’ll just go direct or pick a singular fix that works for me and then direct. Center takes the handoff every time. They may slightly amend your route as they need after talking to you.
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STARS and ERAM play together much better than ARTS and Stage A did. So it sounds like STARS gets the field 6,7 Fix/Time in itself and you can do a field 10, Route in right at the Scope. I’m assuming an FP is still an 11 field thing. How many elements could you get into 10, Route? Not that you’d likely ever do any more than you did, a first fix and then destination. But could you get say some airways in there? Like ABC.V12.DEF..GHIJK..KLMP?
@PastZTL . What about the Center? I know it’s going to spit out PDAR’s a lot of the time. But can the Controller at the scope, A or D side or whatever they are called nowadays, enter elements into the Route that include airways?
 
luvflyin said:
STARS and ERAM play together much better than ARTS and Stage A did. So it sounds like STARS gets the field 6,7 Fix/Time in itself and you can do a field 10, Route in right at the Scope. I’m assuming an FP is still an 11 field thing. How many elements could you get into 10, Route? Not that you’d likely ever do any more than you did, a first fix and then destination. But could you get say some airways in there? Like ABC.V12.DEF..GHIJK..KLMP?
@PastZTL . What about the Center? I know it’s going to spit out PDAR’s a lot of the time. But can the Controller at the scope, A or D side or whatever they are called nowadays, enter elements into the Route that include airways?
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Yes, the D-side position allows for all the FP elements except SAR info (acft color, SOB, FOB, etc). I used to ask for those three on a popup just to get it on the recording.
 
PastZTL said:
Yes, the D-side position allows for all the FP elements except SAR info (acft color, SOB, FOB, etc). I used to ask for those three on a popup just to get it on the recording.
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Those three, especially SOB and FOB make a lot of sense. It makes SAR's job easier. Narrows the search range if they know how much fuel you actually had and didn't have to base the search range based on the planes fuel capacity. And if they find you they can account for all the people and not have to wonder if someone got out and wandered off into the wilderness seeking help. But these stories I'm hearing about Controllers demanding the whole shebang, phone numbers, addresses, full name etc is a bit much. And make a pilot go to Radio and file if they do have the time to do it but just didn't want to when the could have easily just given them a Clearance.
 
Velocity173 said:
I think this para hints at getting all flight plan info for SAR purposes.


View attachment 106596
Now for terminal? That’s a little more gray. No requirement that I know of. I’ve heard it many times over the air before though. Like this controller, I only did it for aircraft leaving my airspace.

https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/pop-up-ifr/
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Nice article. Thanks. But this advice implies that once we are over solid overcast it’s better to wait until we are with the approach facility of our destination to request a pop up. That seems counter productive especially if an issue arises inflight.
 
luvflyin said:
Those three, especially SOB and FOB make a lot of sense. It makes SAR's job easier. Narrows the search range if they know how much fuel you actually had and didn't have to base the search range based on the planes fuel capacity. And if they find you they can account for all the people and not have to wonder if someone got out and wandered off into the wilderness seeking help. But these stories I'm hearing about Controllers demanding the whole shebang, phone numbers, addresses, full name etc is a bit much. And make a pilot go to Radio and file if they do have the time to do it but just didn't want to when the could have easily just given them a Clearance.
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I’ve gotten a pop up from New Orleans doing hurricane relief flights when I couldn’t get cell service on the ground to file. They were great about it and simply requested I repeat the SAR info on air for the tapes.
 
Radar Contact said:
Doesn’t change things for me. An aircraft talking to ATC that disappears off radar will get basic SAR initiated. If you want more, I’d suggest you file a flight plan. As a pilot I’m perfectly comfortable without the flight plan.
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I don’t need more, just that some facilities seem determined to extract it out of you to take some responsibility off of them maybe? I get some of it if you go nordo.
 
Tokirbymd said:
Nice article. Thanks. But this advice implies that once we are over solid overcast it’s better to wait until we are with the approach facility of our destination to request a pop up. That seems counter productive especially if an issue arises inflight.
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That’s just the first introductory sentence. Further down the article, the controller being interviewed states that while most of his pop ups are that situation, he gets the enroute ones as well. His statement in handling the enroute aircraft reflects the POA pilot comments and controller experience such as @Radar Contact above. That is, if the controller isn’t busy they can quickly issue the IFR clearance to someone enroute. It’s just a matter of amending the current strip to IFR and issuing the clearance. If they are busy, if the aircraft is getting ready to enter another facilities airspace, or it’s an aircraft calling out of the blue and not in the system, they might have to send the aircraft to FSS. If I had to guess, I’d bet maybe 10 % of pop ups enroute are actually sent to FSS. Most can be handled by approach / center.
 
Does ATC still want to know the equipment codes for popups? The ICAO codes now in use seem kind of cumbersome for reading over the radio. Or do they just assume that everyone is RNAV-equipped unless otherwise stated?
 
I was flying to Dallas this past weekend and went VFR FF as the TAF showed my destination to be clear by the time I got there. About 150nm out it's was still overcast and MVFR. 75nm miles out still the same so I asked for a pop up IFR and immediately got it. They didn't ask anything other than my altitude I wanted. Nothing, not even if I'm IFR rated or anything.
 
Palmpilot said:
Does ATC still want to know the equipment codes for popups? The ICAO codes now in use seem kind of cumbersome for reading over the radio. Or do they just assume that everyone is RNAV-equipped unless otherwise stated?
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They’ll want your type aircraft. The suffix code, /A, /G should be a part of that. C172 slant golf. I’ve never heard of them wanting anything other than the suffix code. And I’ll venture to say if you offer up the whole can of Campbell’s Cream of Alphabet soup, they’ll be annoyed. Specially if they are busy.
 
EdFred said:
I still tell em /G
None of them have asked for the ICAO code.
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I do too, but I'm wondering if a time will come when there are no longer controllers who are familiar with the obsolete terminology. And if I say I'm /A or /U, can I assume they will still know what I mean, or should I just say that I'm not RNAV equipped?
 
luvflyin said:
They’ll want your type aircraft. The suffix code, /A, /G should be a part of that. C172 slant golf. I’ve never heard of them wanting anything other than the suffix code. And I’ll venture to say if you offer up the whole can of Campbell’s Cream of Alphabet soup, they’ll be annoyed. Specially if they are busy.
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So there is a disconnect between what the FAA wants on flight plans and what controllers want to hear over the radio. (Does the controller's manual have anything to say on the subject?)
 
Palmpilot said:
So there is a disconnect between what the FAA wants on flight plans and what controllers want to hear over the radio. (Does the controller's manual have anything to say on the subject?)
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I can’t find anything that explicitly address that. All I can say is they need to know if you have DME or RNAV before using DME Separation or asking for reports over DME fixes that are not also intersections. And have RNAV before using RNAV Waypoints. And clearing you direct to anywhere without giving a heading to fly until you are able to proceed direct. But I can think of no situation where they need anything other than the Suffix Code to provide Air Traffic Control.
 
EdFred said:
Well, the question arises because on flight plans we're now required to have all the ICAO suffixes since there's a note on Leidos that says
"Notice: Per FAA Guidance, all civilian flight plans
must be filed as ICAO flight plans."

which then wants this crap entered:
SBG LB2
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Yeah, I get it why the question comes up and I think it’s a darn good question.
 
Tell the controller you are a /(insert appropriate alpha character here). I believe that the odds that the controller will ask for additional information are very low, but it is possible. ERAM will take a flight plan without the PBN codes.
 
Palmpilot said:
I do too, but I'm wondering if a time will come when there are no longer controllers who are familiar with the obsolete terminology. And if I say I'm /A or /U, can I assume they will still know what I mean, or should I just say that I'm not RNAVequipped?
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When you file with FSS, the ICAO codes automatically get translated to a / something. The strip doesn’t have enough characters for the ICAO format. If you call airborne, they’ll know what / U means.
 
simtech said:
I was flying to Dallas this past weekend and went VFR FF as the TAF showed my destination to be clear by the time I got there. About 150nm out it's was still overcast and MVFR. 75nm miles out still the same so I asked for a pop up IFR and immediately got it. They didn't ask anything other than my altitude I wanted. Nothing, not even if I'm IFR rated or anything.
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I’ve never been asked if I was rated. Had a few ask if I was IFR equipped but never asked about ratings.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I’ve never been asked if I was rated. Had a few ask if I was IFR equipped but never asked about ratings.
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Controller interpretation if they believe it’s an emergency situation or not.

8D85E8CE-3852-4A61-BBD9-4EF42C44F568.jpeg
 
I usually just file IFR, but I have asked for popups many times and ATC is usually pretty gracious at fitting me in. It's better if you do it sooner than later, and not after getting into super-busy airspace. But really, if there is any doubt about enroute or destination conditions, I just file then everything is hunky-dory. These days IFR is often GPS direct after initial departure routing, so there is no longer the disincentive to file to avoid circuitous Victor Airway routing. You can often go direct anyway for many trips.
 
I've used the following approach a handful of times, and as high as 12,500' MSL:
  • takeoff VFR without a filed flight plan (with Flight Following always a good idea)
  • prepare an IFR "Flight" in ForeFlight on your phone
  • a handful of minutes before you feel you'll need an IFR clearance, tap "File" to file the flight plan from ForeFlight
  • hold your breath a bit until you get a good enough cell connection for the flight plan to be "acknowledged" as successfully submitted by ForeFlight to ATC
  • get on the radio to Approach/Center and let them know your flight plan is "in the system" and request your clearance
Here's a video (jump ahead to 11:30) where I successfully did exactly the above:

The issue is... will I get a good enough cell connection for the filing to go through? To our benefit, the filing from ForeFlight takes much less of a cell connection than a voice call would. In my experience, within a few minutes of trying the answer has always been yes. YMMV

Wayne
 
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I almost always have FF when VFR. When changing to IFR it's rarely an issue, "Cleared destination direct, maintain 5000" or the like. I think there's been about three times (Boston Center, Greensboro Approach, and one other) where they've sent me to Flight Service to file.
 
Velocity173 said:
When you file with FSS, the ICAO codes automatically get translated to a / something. The strip doesn’t have enough characters for the ICAO format. If you call airborne, they’ll know what / U means.
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That’s an interesting question- from all of the PBN alphabet soup- what does ATC see? I suspect most of that is for automation but what is required? (Not what the FAA has deemed required per ICAO but what does the controller really need to see?)
 
Tokirbymd said:
That’s an interesting question- from all of the PBN alphabet soup- what does ATC see? I suspect most of that is for automation but what is required? (Not what the FAA has deemed required per ICAO but what does the controller really need to see?)
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They still have an equipment suffix on the strip. To change the suffix technically they’re supposed to use the PBN format and the computer will automatically change the equipment suffix.

For VFRs, they still use / whatever for FF. To switch the VFR to IFR, I seriously doubt they’re going to ask for PBN nonsense to clear the aircraft IFR. I don’t think the controller is going to care about anything other than the / equipment suffix.
 
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The PBN codes will help with automation, but are not necessary for a flight plan in ERAM. /G (or /whatever) is just fine. I can't speak for terminal, but the enroute controller will see /G unless he or she pulls up a template that shows your PBN values.
 
Well, I'm sure glad we all switched to the international flight plan format. :rolleyes:

I wonder if the FAA still publishes the list of slant equipment codes anywhere. I've been looking for them in the AIM, but no luck so far. If that's what we're supposed to be using when communicating with ATC, it would be nice to have a list somewhere in government publications for pilots.
 
And I'm glad we use alphabet airspace while still maintaining goofy local US pseudoairspace and changed position and hold to line up and wait, and deem English Proficiency to be a limitation.
 
I'm hesitant to even ask...but my memory is just too fuzzy.
Back 20 or so years ago, I vaguely recall a twist to filing VFR flight plans that would automatically trigger the strips to be printed...so that VFR flight following went more like IFR does. Seems like it didn't work every time, but it was helpful.
I just cannot remember what we were doing....but I'm wondering if it's still a valid thing to do...and if it might help with the topic of this thread.
Any idea what I'm remembering?
 
Palmpilot said:
Well, I'm sure glad we all switched to the international flight plan format. :rolleyes:

I wonder if the FAA still publishes the list of slant equipment codes anywhere. I've been looking for them in the AIM, but no luck so far. If that's what we're supposed to be using when communicating with ATC, it would be nice to have a list somewhere in government publications for pilots.
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I couldn’t find it in the AIM either. Figured it would be in the TPP but didn’t se it there either. Here it is but it’s from the 7110.65 which doesn’t help pilots any.

upload_2022-5-15_8-11-27.png
 
Brad W said:
I'm hesitant to even ask...but my memory is just too fuzzy.
Back 20 or so years ago, I vaguely recall a twist to filing VFR flight plans that would automatically trigger the strips to be printed...so that VFR flight following went more like IFR does. Seems like it didn't work every time, but it was helpful.
I just cannot remember what we were doing....but I'm wondering if it's still a valid thing to do...and if it might help with the topic of this thread.
Any idea what I'm remembering?
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You probably indicated IFR but put a VFR altitude and remarks as “VFR Flight Following.” That’ll push a strip to ATC.
 
Velocity173 said:
You probably indicated IFR but put a VFR altitude and remarks as “VFR Flight Following.” That’ll push a strip to ATC.
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And then one of our PoA members asked the Chief Counsel's office about it, which resulted in a letter that suggested it might not be kosher. :rolleyes:
 
Brad W said:
I'm hesitant to even ask...but my memory is just too fuzzy.
Back 20 or so years ago, I vaguely recall a twist to filing VFR flight plans that would automatically trigger the strips to be printed...so that VFR flight following went more like IFR does. ?
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Yeah, it's called entering the flight plan as IFR. You put VFR in the altitude block to clue in the controller that you're not really IFR.

I remember sitting in this meeting in Maryland when they were just setting up the FRZ procedures (having been based at VKX on 9/11, I was in the first bunch approved to fly there). The FAA guy (Marty, who had been ATC but had not moved tin in years), was making a big thing about how hard it was going to be to get the plans from the Leesburg AFSS which had the "special" pilot passwords to the TRACONs involved. I'm like, "Marty, why don't you just put them in as IFR?" He walks me over to the FSS guys and says "can you put them in as IFR?" They're like, duh! Of course, how else would it work.
 
Since most of my flights go through NY Approach airspace I know that odds are better than 50/50 that they will tell me to go to FSS if I try to get a pop up that where the destination is in somebody else's airspace. When there is any doubt about wx at destination I use the fltplan.com option of filing IFR with a pickup clearance point short of my destination. If I don't need it then I just continue VFR (with FF when possible). Never had an issue with this approach.
 
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