timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
Not to derail the other thread but to satisfy my curiosity.
Poll...Should Radios Be Required At Non-Towered Airports?
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timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
Likely another poll that would likely be both quite entertaining and telling would be:
did you learn to fly using:
a GPS, glass cockpit and/or and ForeFlight (etc.)
or
Steam Gauges, VORs, dead (ded) reckoning, and (gasp) pilotage.
I bought a plane and learned how to fly in it in 2002. It had a GPS in it. But...
My old school instructor wouldn't even allow me to turn it on until after I passed my check ride. Thank god.
I've flown countless long XC trips without turning on a radio or using any navigational aid other than a penciled-in line on a paper sectional. On my first trip to 6Y9 (2011 I think) I flew from Southern Missouri to the UP of Michigan that way. There IS NO BETTER WAY TO FLY. (more enjoyable, that is)
and if you can't do that then get off of my lawn!
did you learn to fly using:
a GPS, glass cockpit and/or and ForeFlight (etc.)
or
Steam Gauges, VORs, dead (ded) reckoning, and (gasp) pilotage.
I bought a plane and learned how to fly in it in 2002. It had a GPS in it. But...
My old school instructor wouldn't even allow me to turn it on until after I passed my check ride. Thank god.
I've flown countless long XC trips without turning on a radio or using any navigational aid other than a penciled-in line on a paper sectional. On my first trip to 6Y9 (2011 I think) I flew from Southern Missouri to the UP of Michigan that way. There IS NO BETTER WAY TO FLY. (more enjoyable, that is)
and if you can't do that then get off of my lawn!
denverpilot
Tied Down
He must have been very confident in the DPE letting you leave it turned off. Anything on board that isn’t legally INOPed is always fair game on a checkride.
No DPE around here would have let you not turn it on and demonstrate basic use knowledge of it that I’m aware of.
Mostly posted as a warning to others. This is not a good training plan. It’s possible to have that seriously backfire on a candidate.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
You just did.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Likely another poll that would likely be both quite entertaining and telling would be:
did you learn to fly using:
a GPS, glass cockpit and/or and ForeFlight (etc.)
or
Steam Gauges, VORs, dead (ded) reckoning, and (gasp) pilotage.
I bought a plane and learned how to fly in it in 2002. It had a GPS in it. But...
My old school instructor wouldn't even allow me to turn it on until after I passed my check ride. Thank god.
I've flown countless long XC trips without turning on a radio or using any navigational aid other than a penciled-in line on a paper sectional. On my first trip to 6Y9 (2011 I think) I flew from Southern Missouri to the UP of Michigan that way. There IS NO BETTER WAY TO FLY. (more enjoyable, that is)
and if you can't do that then get off of my lawn!
You are hereby charged with malice and forethought of denying the Magentenliners from making their case that the color of the sky in their world should be fact. How do you plead?
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
Okay, maybe a bit of an overstatement...he made sure I knew how to use it...I just wasn't allowed to during training and cross countries.
He hated GPSs...likened them to video games. He was an army aviator in both Korea and Vietnam and got by fine without at both.
saracelica
Pattern Altitude
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saracelica
We have an EAA chapter in the same area and they have a pietenpol so I got use to looking for that yellow POS. Would it be better if he had a radio? Meh what's the challenge in that?
AU_James
Pre-takeoff checklist
It's been a while, but this past weekend at a non-towered field I heard a transmission "how many are in the pattern?"
In an effort to try and give him SOME benefit of the doubt, there were a LOT in the pattern. But then again that's also another reason for the question not be asked.
To everybody else's credit, nobody responded with anything but "XX left downwind/base/final RWY 5."
In an effort to try and give him SOME benefit of the doubt, there were a LOT in the pattern. But then again that's also another reason for the question not be asked.
To everybody else's credit, nobody responded with anything but "XX left downwind/base/final RWY 5."
denverpilot
Tied Down
I fly out of a fairly busy non-towered field south of Houston (KLBX). Nordo traffic fits the mix of everything from jets practicing approaches to student pilots running patterns. Things work well if people look outside the cockpit at least once in a while.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Shouldn’t the question simply be shouldn’t radios be required to fly? What goes up must come down and the only place to come back down is an airport.
smv
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smv
Contrary to popular belief, there is no law requiring one to land at an airport.
Voted No, under 40.
Trained with GPS and steam gauges, use foreflight. Also generally use flight following when I'm going anywhere and I've recently upgraded to ADS-B in/out and I absolutely love having it.
I voted no because statistics tell me that this is not a major problem and I'm aware that on some airplanes it's simply impractical or impossible to us the radio. Also I dislike mandates.
That said let me just tell you a short story. Very shortly after getting my PPL I took a cross country flight several hours away from home to hang out with some friends for the weekend. Cloud deck was lower than I wanted but I could fly it at 3,500 which was around 2800 - 3000AGL across the area. As we know within 3,000' of the ground = no specific altitude for direction of flight.. I was easterly but being a freshly minted private pilot the idea that another plane could be coming at me at the same altitude was very much in my head. I did something that, at that point, I hadn't really done before and called ATC to ask for flight following. I was cruising along, enjoying my first cross country as a private pilot when I got an urgent sounding call from ATC commanding me to turn to the left... I can't remember now if it was a specific heading or so many degrees, but that's not important. What is important is that I automatically started banking left and acknowledged the call. ATC then issued a traffic alert for an aircraft at my 12 o clock, less than 1 mile, same altitude, opposite direction. I'd barely started searching for the target when I saw him... he went shooting past my right wing probably 1/4 mile away or so. It was CLOSE and I never saw the traffic until it would have been too late to turn, I'm sure he didn't see me either. Now we might not have hit... the sky is of course quite big and planes or quite small but it was really really uncomfortably close. Being on my radio and using flight following may very well have saved my life and the life of whoever was on that other plane(a cherokee btw, I was close enough to tell). This did not occur in busy airspace either btw, it was over the middle of nowhere in farm country. I've never come that close since, but once was enough.
I don't know how many times I've been in an airplane, sometimes with passengers and others with CFIs or other pilots and we heard someone on the radio telling us an aircraft was nearby and we looked and looked.... either never seeing it or finally finding it after a minute of searching. That's knowing where to look and that an aircraft is there to find.
It is my opinion, based on flying experience, that if you're only using your eyes for traffic avoidance you are to some degree relying on luck. Would this scare me away from taking a ride in a plane with un-shielded ignition and no radio? Probably not, which is why I don't agree with a mandate. But if it would work, I'd grab my portable and headset out of my flight bag and bring it along. Why you would not take advantage of something so simple and affordable if you could to avoid something so potentially devastating is beyond me.
Trained with GPS and steam gauges, use foreflight. Also generally use flight following when I'm going anywhere and I've recently upgraded to ADS-B in/out and I absolutely love having it.
I voted no because statistics tell me that this is not a major problem and I'm aware that on some airplanes it's simply impractical or impossible to us the radio. Also I dislike mandates.
That said let me just tell you a short story. Very shortly after getting my PPL I took a cross country flight several hours away from home to hang out with some friends for the weekend. Cloud deck was lower than I wanted but I could fly it at 3,500 which was around 2800 - 3000AGL across the area. As we know within 3,000' of the ground = no specific altitude for direction of flight.. I was easterly but being a freshly minted private pilot the idea that another plane could be coming at me at the same altitude was very much in my head. I did something that, at that point, I hadn't really done before and called ATC to ask for flight following. I was cruising along, enjoying my first cross country as a private pilot when I got an urgent sounding call from ATC commanding me to turn to the left... I can't remember now if it was a specific heading or so many degrees, but that's not important. What is important is that I automatically started banking left and acknowledged the call. ATC then issued a traffic alert for an aircraft at my 12 o clock, less than 1 mile, same altitude, opposite direction. I'd barely started searching for the target when I saw him... he went shooting past my right wing probably 1/4 mile away or so. It was CLOSE and I never saw the traffic until it would have been too late to turn, I'm sure he didn't see me either. Now we might not have hit... the sky is of course quite big and planes or quite small but it was really really uncomfortably close. Being on my radio and using flight following may very well have saved my life and the life of whoever was on that other plane(a cherokee btw, I was close enough to tell). This did not occur in busy airspace either btw, it was over the middle of nowhere in farm country. I've never come that close since, but once was enough.
I don't know how many times I've been in an airplane, sometimes with passengers and others with CFIs or other pilots and we heard someone on the radio telling us an aircraft was nearby and we looked and looked.... either never seeing it or finally finding it after a minute of searching. That's knowing where to look and that an aircraft is there to find.
It is my opinion, based on flying experience, that if you're only using your eyes for traffic avoidance you are to some degree relying on luck. Would this scare me away from taking a ride in a plane with un-shielded ignition and no radio? Probably not, which is why I don't agree with a mandate. But if it would work, I'd grab my portable and headset out of my flight bag and bring it along. Why you would not take advantage of something so simple and affordable if you could to avoid something so potentially devastating is beyond me.
SoCalPilot88
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SoCalPilot88
Seems every time I flew out of Corona airport (AJO, non-towered airport), I had some wtf moment due to someone not reporting on the radio. Same story at the adjacent practice area over Lake Mathews. You would think people would learn the lesson from the mid-air collision that killed several people at that airport years earlier.
I'll report as recommended in the AIM, and then some. If someone is asking "how many are in the pattern", I have no problem chiming in, if it removes ambiguity and promotes safety.
I'll report as recommended in the AIM, and then some. If someone is asking "how many are in the pattern", I have no problem chiming in, if it removes ambiguity and promotes safety.
The problem with reporting how many are in the pattern is you may not really no how many are in the pattern. You even said in your post, people don’t report on the radio. I just listen up, make my position reports and hope I don’t hit anyone
TRocket
Line Up and Wait
Well under 40 and also voted no.
Learned to fly in 2014-2015. No GPS (though one of the trainers had what resembled a GPS, but not the kind with a magenta line and rarely used).
Steam gauges and VOR's.
PPL solo cross countries were all flown with pencil lines on a paper sectional and a flight log (did not even use the VOR's for that) while looking for stuff out the window. Oh, and I used that E6B thing to several times along the way!
Did not own an Ipad until after PPL
IR was done with paper charts, steam gauges, a non-waas 430 (though that seemed to "fail" quite a bit) and no ipad.
Flew my first glass panel and auto pilot last year. I will admit the G1000 is nice and I have become pretty comfortable with it, still love some good ole steam gauges.
A plane I fly quite often has a 6 pack and a 530, but turn that off from time to time and navigate using a chart and good ole VOR's if I'm not in a hurry. Technology is great and convenient, but sometimes the old way is just more fun (a good to be proficient on just in case....).
A final thought on "should radios be required". A great benefit of them not being required, it reduces the probably of having to hear things like "any traffic in the pattern please advise", letting us know it is your final call, or someones life story...especially on 122.8
Learned to fly in 2014-2015. No GPS (though one of the trainers had what resembled a GPS, but not the kind with a magenta line and rarely used).
Steam gauges and VOR's.
PPL solo cross countries were all flown with pencil lines on a paper sectional and a flight log (did not even use the VOR's for that) while looking for stuff out the window. Oh, and I used that E6B thing to several times along the way!
Did not own an Ipad until after PPL
IR was done with paper charts, steam gauges, a non-waas 430 (though that seemed to "fail" quite a bit) and no ipad.
Flew my first glass panel and auto pilot last year. I will admit the G1000 is nice and I have become pretty comfortable with it, still love some good ole steam gauges.
A plane I fly quite often has a 6 pack and a 530, but turn that off from time to time and navigate using a chart and good ole VOR's if I'm not in a hurry. Technology is great and convenient, but sometimes the old way is just more fun (a good to be proficient on just in case....).
A final thought on "should radios be required". A great benefit of them not being required, it reduces the probably of having to hear things like "any traffic in the pattern please advise", letting us know it is your final call, or someones life story...especially on 122.8
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Ari
As far as I can tell, both of the planes involved in the 2008 midair at Corona were talking on CTAF.
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/44500-44999/44967/414346.pdf
Juliet Hotel
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Juliet Hotel
Over 40, voted no. I learned to fly in the late 90's in a C150. I think it had one comm radio, a compass and a couple old Narco VOR's. I used VOR for just about all flights that took me more than 20 miles from the FBO. My hairiest incidents involving other traffic during training all involved approaching VOR stations. I was limping along more or less Northbound on a solo cross country approaching a VOR station I caught sight of a Baron off my right wing inbound from the East at my altitude moving fast. He passed maybe 1/2 a mile in front of me and kept heading West. In this order, I thought wow that was close, wow that's a nice plane, wow so that's what straight and level is supposed to look like.
schmookeeg
En-Route
As the owner of one participant aircraft in the 2008 Corona midair, these are the lessons you can draw from that accident:
1. Skyhawks can cut through your traffic pattern at 800 feet AGL, enroute to Fullerton from French Valley
2. A mid-air collision can generate 27 separate and distinct lawsuits. Via bizarre coincidence, the amounts sought will all match the insurance policy limit.
3. Two pilots in a climbing 150 can fail to see the 172 aimed straight at the copilot door of the aircraft.
4. While you can sue for your loss of alimony payments when your ex-husband dies in the right seat of a rented skyhawk, you will not receive them. (Also: your bogus worker comp claims, and your "I saw it happen from the freeway and am afraid of life now and need $1,000,000" claim)
There were larger bungles than "failed to use radio" in that accident. It's non-instructive for this purpose. I doubt the skyhawk monitored AJO unicom, and while our 150 renter pilot had just passed his IFR checkride that morning, and probably should have known better, his use of radio would have only further reduced the "see and avoid" skills which he and his commercial-rated copilot did not have enough of that afternoon.
$0.02
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
smv
Pattern Altitude
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smv
Wow... You stretch that any further and Crayola (the holder of the Silly Putty trademark) is going to come after you for trademark infringement.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Huckster79
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How do you find the airport and runway though looking outside? I keep em where they belong down on my iPad with ForeFlight till it shows I’m really close and on the extended runway line on the screen... looking outside? That’s just crazy talk! Lol
Tantalum
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San_Diego_Pilot
That area really freaks me out.. always fly IFR there and request 11K.. sometimes they give it to me
I'm honestly surprised there aren't more midairs. Time before last I was up I thought I was getting a ghost ship signal on the iPad traffic since it was *right* behind me.. lo and behold I turn around and there's a 182 maybe 100 yards behind me.. very slowly traversing diagonally from left to right. We were anouncing, but Mr XXSP was not talking, and presumably not listening
Jmcmanna
Pre-takeoff checklist
I had just landed the other day at home base and clearing the runway, the 310 waiting for me announced he was taking the runway and departing. Meanwhile, someone who had not been talking on the radio was on a very tight base leg (and would have not been visible by the 310). Someone else called the traffic and the 310 pilot (not THE 310Pilot @radarcontact) stopped short, and nothing exciting happened...but had this light sport made a single announcement in the pattern (he hadn’t), at least the guy waiting to take off could have been looking for him.
It’s 2020, and a radio costs the same as a tank of gas.
It’s 2020, and a radio costs the same as a tank of gas.
Stan Cooper
Pattern Altitude
Right; a Sporty's PJ2 is $199. J3 or Champ without electrical system? No problem.
I'm 77 and voted no just because I don't believe it should be a regulatory requirement. But intuitively, folks without radios increase the risk for everybody else especially in a busy pattern.
WWFeldman
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I'm 55 and plan on taking checkride in the next month or so.
I remember when my instructor told me that radios weren't mandatory, I thought he was effing with me. I would never have guessed they are optional.
Personally I would never fly without one and I voted yes.
I remember when my instructor told me that radios weren't mandatory, I thought he was effing with me. I would never have guessed they are optional.
Personally I would never fly without one and I voted yes.
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SixPapaCharlie
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If you are not using a radio you are complicating things for others period.
We share the pattern with people of all ages, skill levels and varying degrees of eyesight.
If you choose not to use a radio, you are messing up other people, confusing students, and ****ing off people that are using all the tools available.
I can't believe in 2020 anyone wouldn't want to know who is where.
We share the pattern with people of all ages, skill levels and varying degrees of eyesight.
If you choose not to use a radio, you are messing up other people, confusing students, and ****ing off people that are using all the tools available.
I can't believe in 2020 anyone wouldn't want to know who is where.
I’d assume most understand that the issue isn’t cost. The issue is a mandatory requirement that is also applicable when there is no other traffic around, at every untowered airport including those with virtually no traffic ever. The other factor is the total effect of slow requirements creep towards a situation where meeting all the requirements to fly a little airplane is a worse problem than the problem or problems those requirements are intended to solve. This is the case in many or most countries in the world, with the result that few fly, so it is not at all unlikely.
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If the plane has a radio, I’ll use it. But I wouldn’t be in favor of requiring all planes to have radios to operate at non towered airports. I think this is the sentiment among most people who voted no.
Juliet Hotel
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Juliet Hotel
You left out the word properly. If you are not using the radio properly...
If you're not using it properly, you are also complicating things for others.
And there are a whole lotta pilots out there that can't seem to figure out how to use CTAF properly. If you require radios at all uncontrolled airports, there will be more of those pilots on the frequency, not less.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
Unless there's something strange/unique about you airport then there's no way someone on base could not be visible to someone who pays attention to how they queue up and wait to take off. And, if that person pulls out on the runway without first checking for someone on final and base then that's all on him, not the NORDO guy.
I was always taught to turn parallel with the runway for runup---downwind---so I have a good view of both final and base. And then do a 360 and look for traffic on EVERY leg of the pattern after announcing that I was taking the runway but before actually doing so...you know...actually LOOK FOR TRAFFIC!
Can't agree with you on that one Bryan. It's not much of an issue if everyone practices "see and be seen." Those who don't are complicating things for others. The mantra isn't "talk and be heard" for a reason.
Hacker
Pre-takeoff checklist
I have to wonder how many folks who are saying that folks should not operate without radios have much experience actually operating without one.
If you think it is tough to build pattern awareness with a non-talker in the pattern, you should see what it is like to build SA without a radio at all.
If you think it is tough to build pattern awareness with a non-talker in the pattern, you should see what it is like to build SA without a radio at all.
Hacker
Pre-takeoff checklist
So that it blasts the folks on the taxiway behind you?
If you angle on the taxiway for runup, you still have a perfectly good view of base and final while you are not creating flight control flutter for the other airplanes.
Hacker
Pre-takeoff checklist
Is that the deal now? If you don't hear someone in the pattern on the radio, you don't have to look and clear before you take the runway?
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
So that it blasts the folks on the taxiway behind you?
If you angle on the taxiway for runup, you still have a perfectly good view of base and final while you are not creating flight control flutter for the other airplanes.
The airport I learned to fly at...and the one I was most recently based at...and many or most I've flown at...the hold short line is on the connector portion of the taxiway (i.e. the taxiway is perpendicular to the runway). So if the plane is turned so that you're parallel to the runway, you are sideways to the taxiway and NOT blasting those behind you. That's the scenario I was referencing. If you must do your runup on the portion of the taxiway that's parallel to the runway, then sure, you wouldn't do that. But, that's easily rectified with the 360 before taking the runway.
In the Cirrus I just announce doing my run up and all other inferior planes move out the way.So that it blasts the folks on the taxiway behind you?
If you angle on the taxiway for runup, you still have a perfectly good view of base and final while you are not creating flight control flutter for the other airplanes.
SixPapaCharlie
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Everybody always throws out the see and be seen line. I probably flown with 50 pilots and at some point on every flight even with traffic pointed out we've struggled to try to find it. Most of us have a story where we flew right over the airport because we couldn't find it.
Y'all's eyes aren't as good as you think they are.
Y'all's eyes aren't as good as you think they are.