Poll: how many times did you fly VFR into IMC

[WannFly]

But someone's personal version of unsafe doesn't make an operation illegal, either.

Ok you are flying 2k feet above a OVC layer and there is another OVC layer 3k feet above you. Without reference to instruments, how exactly do you determine you are straight and level? Completely legal and NTSB would happily classify the crash under pilots inability to maintain blue side up.... still legal.

 

[kyleb]

Ok you are flying 2k feet above a OVC layer and there is another OVC layer 3k feet above you. Without reference to instruments, how exactly do you determine you are straight and level?

Ain't hard. You might want to create another strawman.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Ok you are flying 2k feet above a OVC layer and there is another OVC layer 3k feet above you. Without reference to instruments, how exactly do you determine you are straight and level?

Why can’t I reference my compass and altimeter?

 

[3393RP]

(in order to make this more meaningful, the "Display votes publicly" setting is off, but remember that the forum's administration can know who posted what)

Are you sure about that? I know admins can't see private conversations, I don't know about polls.

 

[Palmpilot]

Ok you are flying 2k feet above a OVC layer and there is another OVC layer 3k feet above you. Without reference to instruments, how exactly do you determine you are straight and level? Completely legal and NTSB would happily classify the crash under pilots inability to maintain blue side up.... still legal.

Ain't hard. You might want to create another strawman.

That's not a straw man.

 

[WannFly]

Why can’t I reference my compass and altimeter?

Well ya know... they are instruments !!

 

[Croomrider]

You can use instruments without being under IFR!

 

[bflynn]

Between layers is hardly VFR unless you had ground contact

You can fly a VFR over the top clearance as long as you maintain VFR visibility and cloud clearance throughout your flight. Whether or not it is smart in a particular situation is a different question.

You're probably thinking about VFR on top, which is different.

 

[3393RP]

Got sucked into a cloud once in my Hang Glider. Couldn't dive fast enough to get away. Came out about a minute later banked 45 degrees, had no idea how far from level I was. No attitude indicator in my instrument pod. That cured me of any desire to be in IMC without proper instruments and made me pay a lot of attention to hoodwork during PP training. Have about 1 hour in actual from training.

Around 1980 a guy showed up at Sandia Crest and announced his intention to take off. It was about 2:00 in the afternoon. There were a couple of local pilots at the takeoff that explained to him it was too dangerous to fly in the early afternoon. Convective lift is everywhere, and the thermals are too strong.

He ignored them, and took off even though the afternoon cumulus clouds were building over the mountain.

His wrecked glider and his body were found a couple of miles from the takeoff. His parachute was entangled around the broken up kite.

As a general rule, I avoided flying off the mountain before 5 PM. I was in a situation once where there was so much convective lift I kept going up. I used my VSI to find some sink, cranked it over, and spiraled down.

 

[WannFly]

You can fly a VFR over the top clearance as long as you maintain VFR visibility and cloud clearance throughout your flight. Whether or not it is smart in a particular situation is a different question.

You're probably thinking about VFR on top, which is different.

Completely agree and in this case I am talking about the safety aspect of it. It is definitely legal

 

[WannFly]

You can use instruments without being under IFR!

Sure you can... but you are flying solely by instruments in the example I stated above between 2 OVC layers. Nothing VFR about it, perfectly legal

 

[OkieAviator]

Ok you are flying 2k feet above a OVC layer and there is another OVC layer 3k feet above you. Without reference to instruments, how exactly do you determine you are straight and level? Completely legal and NTSB would happily classify the crash under pilots inability to maintain blue side up.... still legal.

You look at the bottom of the cloud set above you. If you can’t do that while using your VFR mandated equipment it is pilots error.

 

[dmspilot]

you are flying solely by instruments in the example I stated above between 2 OVC layers.

Not necessarily, unless you're wearing a view-limiting device.

Nothing VFR about it, perfectly legal

Uh, 2,000 feet above one layer and 3,000 below another layer is VFR.

 

[DavidWhite]

The only difference between VFR and IFR in Alaska is if you are talking to someone.

If it was 500’ and 2 miles vis I was expected to go flying and if the village I was going to didn’t have weather reporting I was expected to make it in. Somehow I managed to go into the clouds exactly 0 times ;D

 

[midlifeflyer]

Have to look, but between layers with false horizon without very good grasp of instrument is a recipient for disaster. Legal doesn’t mean safe

Legal vs safe aside, over a ceiling and between layers with the required distances from them and the required visibility is definitely VFR, except for those sub-private certificate levels which require ground contact.

There are even official terms, with "VFR on top" being an IFR clearance and "VFR over the top" being VFR over a broken or overcast ceiling. And some regulations regarding over the top for certain operations.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Once, briefly. It was a flight I chose to do VFR, although I knew there was a possibility of encountering IFR along the way. It was a bit of a surprise how quickly the came up - severe clear one moment, solid the next - more of a "mist front" (I made that up) than clouds which could be seen from a distance. Made a 180 and was out in a few seconds.

 

[Salty]

Sure you can... but you are flying solely by instruments in the example I stated above between 2 OVC layers. Nothing VFR about it, perfectly legal

It’s VFR according to the FAAs definition of VFR. Don’t expect anyone else to use your definition.

Also, flying between layers can often be done without instruments. Not sure why you think it can’t.

 

[Skip Miller]

Once, and it was on the way home from my (successful) PP-ASEL checkride!

Popped in to a small cloud. While distracted, I had climbed into a low cloud. Standard rate descending 180 turn and the sun came out again. Lesson learned!

-Skip

 

[asicer]

I can honestly say I’ve never flown VFR into IMC.

On a few occasions I’ve found myself entering conditions that were less than legal VFR and I was able quickly extract myself.

What's the difference between "less than legal VFR" and "IMC"?

 

[Salty]

What's the difference between "less than legal VFR" and "IMC"?

< 500 foot below, 2000 foot beside, or 1000 foot above, a cloud, for example. < 3 SM visibility for another.

 

[Fearless Tower]

What's the difference between "less than legal VFR" and "IMC"?

IMC essential means you need to be on instruments to fly the plane. In other words there is no or insufficient ground reference to fly.

Legal VFR is spelled out in cloud clearance and visibility requirements depending on the airspace you are in. Sometimes it’s hard to tell if you are 500’ below the clouds or 200’ for example, but pretty obvious when you are inside the cloud.

 

[midlifeflyer]

What's the difference between "less than legal VFR" and "IMC"?

There isn't any if we are using the FAA's definitions and not our own.

 

[Fearless Tower]

There isn't any if we are using the FAA's definitions and not our own.

That is technically true.

Where the FAA confuses it is having a one definition of Instrument Meteorological Conditions and other definitions on when you can log 'actual'. So in correction, my comment was in error. There have been times I found myself entering 'IMC', but not 'actual'.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That is technically true.

Where the FAA confuses it is having a one definition of Instrument Meteorological Conditions and other definitions on when you can log 'actual'. So in correction, my comment was in error. There have been times I found myself entering 'IMC', but not 'actual'.

Not sure if the FAA is confusing it or us

IMC vs VMC is really about airspace and traffic separation. That's why the requirements change with airspace, from 1 sm/clear of clouds to 5sm/1,000/1,000/1 mile above 10,000 msl. (Above 10,000 msl, flying 900' below an overcast with nothing but the ground below and 100 miles visibility is "IMC.")

"Actual instrument conditions," OTOH, refers to conditions outside the aircraft, which may or may not be weather related, which require the pilot to use the instruments to keep the shiny side up.

 

[asicer]

Not sure if the FAA is confusing it or us
...
"Actual instrument conditions," OTOH, refers to conditions outside the aircraft, which may or may not be weather related, which require the pilot to use the instruments to keep the shiny side up.

Agree. I believe the FAA tries to differentiate (with varying degrees of success) by saying "IMC" vs "flight by reference to instruments".

 

[Oblivion]

I flew into an area of decreasing visibility (snow) on my checkride. Pulled a u-turn, picked an airport to deviate to, and was good to continue on.

My CFI took me through a VERY isolated snow squall on the way back from the practice area once - could always see through and down and only lasted 3-5 seconds or so - but it was weird and impressive.

 

[Mr.T]

I might have skimmed the top of a cloud once or twice many moons ago, but I'm old and might just be remembering a dream I had. I *did* fly into a "light rain" event one time that suddenly became a "no visibility and caught in a major downdraft dropping like a rock" rain event. That one got my attention but was over before things got too bad.

I wonder how many people routinely violate standard VFR cloud clearance requirements - 500 below, 1000 above, 2000 horizontally - aside from being in violation of the FARs, it's a dangerous place to be since an IFR flight could come screaming out of the cloud you're too close to... But I'm also sure it's hard to estimate 500, 1000 or 2000 ft...

 

[Oblivion]

aside from being in violation of the FARs, it's a dangerous place to be since an IFR flight could come screaming out of the cloud you're too close to...

But I have ADS-B!

(Yeah, I'm kidding, it's a terrible idea.)

 

[NoHeat]

Earlier this year, I filed an IFR plan, but departed VFR. I started from a Colorado airport with clear skies. I enjoyed flying VFR, talking to nobody, over sparsely populated parts of Colorado and Nebraska. Clouds were forecasted, but not at my altitude.

Then, about one hour into a four-hour flight, I found myself between layers, and shortly afterwards actually in a layer.

My response: I remained straight and level using my autopilot, searched my GPS navigator for the nearest ATC, and then called up to report my situation (I am VFR into IMC) and asked for my IFR clearance. Center handled this request with no excitement whatsoever, and I completed my trip IFR with no problem.

What made the difference for me, compared to a typical VFR into IMC crisis, is not only that I was equipped and reasonably proficient in IFR, but I also had a plan and a weather briefing that allowed me to continue.

 

[LauraE51]

In all fairness, my one time of VFR into IMC occurred in a sailplane in the 1970s. It was after a winter storm, and the lift under the clouds was impressive, at 1000ft/minute...Before i knew it, i was sucked into the clouds. I immediately directed my sailplane away fro the mountain i was next to, i applied the spoilers, and i forced the control stick all the way forward. Still, it took a good 15-20 seconds before i emerged below the clouds. It was an interesting experience.