Please help out a dad

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zipstah

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Zipstah
So my 15, soon to be 16 year old son goes in today to get his 3rd class medical. He has just got going in training and was hoping to get his license at 17. His goal to be a commercial pilot for a company.
He has previously been on ADD meds as my wife thought it would help him in school. They didn’t do anything and he has been off them now for 7 months. I did not realize the FAA stance on this. The physician today sent him for deferment and told him if he gets denied it would be for life!
My wife and I are mortified that by us getting him put on that temporarily we will now be crushing his life dream of being a commercial pilot.
Going through the whole neuropsych gamut would be super hard on a 15-16 year old I would imagine.
In you guys experience should he be able to get there, to his goal?
Thank you
 
He needs off stimulants OF RECORD for 90 days and then the HIMS neuropsychology evaluation…..he will have to swear of the stimulants for the rest of his flying days.

The file prep.is significant, to get evaluated….
 
Sorry about the situation, seen it before. I don’t want to be accused of playing doctor, can’t help but wonder what we did in the 70’s?
If it’s any consolation, you aren’t alone. I think it’s workable, just have the extra hoops to jump through.
 
The FAA ADD surprise catches a lot of new students. Years ago I mentored a kid in a similar situation. With the help of two great AMEs (one who’s already responded here), he was able to work through the system.

I hope it works out for you, too.
 
sourdough44 said:
can’t help but wonder what we did in the 70’s?
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They were prescribing Ritalin to bored kids then too, but without today's computerized medical databases, lots of pilot applicants conveniently "forgot" about it.
 
We get all kinds.
(1) The kids who really do have ADD and should not be allowed anyplace near an aircraft
(2) The kid who has heicopter parents and B's are just NOT GOOD enought so they get their kid ritalin
(3) And then the much more garden variety kid, for whom the forebrain just han't matured and nobody really knows what's wrong because nobody qualified (Psychologist) ever had a change to evaluate....but whose forebrain matures in the early 20s and the kid figures out how to use "personality level workarounds" to process around whatver his situstion is/was.

FAA wants to know which one it is.
 
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bbchien said:
We get all kinds.
(1) The kids who really do have ADD and should not be allowed anyplace near an aircraft
(2) The kid who has heicopter paretns and B's are just NOT GOOD enought so they get their kid ritalin
(3) And then the much more garden variety kid, for whom the forebrain just han't matured and nobody relalyi knows what's wrong because nobody qualfied (Psychologist) evenr had a change to evaluate....but whose forebrain matures in the early 20s and the kid figures out how to use "personality level workarounds" to process around whatver his situstion is/was.

FAA wants to know which one it is.
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Thanks. And I get that. We were just concerned that by him being on it for the short period, been off now for 7 months, that we killed his chances of being a commercial pilot.
 
zipstah said:
So my 15, soon to be 16 year old son goes in today to get his 3rd class medical. He has just got going in training and was hoping to get his license at 17. His goal to be a commercial pilot for a company.
He has previously been on ADD meds as my wife thought it would help him in school. They didn’t do anything and he has been off them now for 7 months. I did not realize the FAA stance on this. The physician today sent him for deferment and told him if he gets denied it would be for life!
My wife and I are mortified that by us getting him put on that temporarily we will now be crushing his life dream of being a commercial pilot.
Going through the whole neuropsych gamut would be super hard on a 15-16 year old I would imagine.
In you guys experience should he be able to get there, to his goal?
Thank you
Click to expand...
If your son doesn't actually have ADD, then yes it's doable. But you're not going to do it on your own. So your first step is to make sure you have the right AME on your side. When the AME deferred your son, did he say "good luck," or did he confidently lay out a road map on which he will help your son gain certification?
 
Lindberg said:
If your son doesn't actually have ADD, then yes it's doable. But you're not going to do it on your own. So your first step is to make sure you have the right AME on your side. When the AME deferred your son, did he say "good luck," or did he confidently lay out a road map on which he will help your son gain certification?
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He just said we would get packet from FAA in 30 days and it had to be turned back in within 30 days. Said they could let him through with just that or if they chose then he would have to go to HIM neuropsychologist. If they denied him, then it’s a lifelong denial.
Which I think is crazy for a 16 year old.
 
Matthew said:
The FAA ADD surprise catches a lot of new students. Years ago I mentored a kid in a similar situation. With the help of two great AMEs (one who’s already responded here), he was able to work through the system.

I hope it works out for you, too.
Click to expand...
I feel bad for the OP, it’s a crappy situation, don’t get me wrong….

However, it’s interesting that this “surprises” so many people. If I were a teen wanting to go pro pilot, I would have already been all over this forum for years learning all I could…. But I’m a geek that way.
 
WE all know this forum exists. I think most pilots have no used a that it does. No CFI I ever used had heard of it.
 
True, many don’t…. But honestly, a quick google search will get you here.
 
zipstah said:
He just said we would get packet from FAA in 30 days and it had to be turned back in within 30 days. Said they could let him through with just that or if they chose then he would have to go to HIM neuropsychologist. If they denied him, then it’s a lifelong denial.
Which I think is crazy for a 16 year old.
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Two things:
You might want to contact an AME in your area known for working with difficult cases who might provide more direct guidance.
A denial isn't necessarily permanent and depending on the why, it could be possible to reapply down the road. A denial would eliminate the possibility of getting a sport pilot certificate, but not the possibility to fly gliders, which could be an option for getting started if medical certification could take a few years.
 
zipstah said:
… If they denied him, then it’s a lifelong denial...
Click to expand...
That’s not necessarily accurate. If you have your ducks in a row, you can ask for an extra 30 days to submit the documentation requested.

Or, let the denial come, then get all the stuff requested done and re-apply.

You’ll want a good consulting AME working with you. The current AME doesn’t seem to be doing you any favors.
 
TCABM said:
That’s not necessarily accurate. If you have your ducks in a row, you can ask for an extra 30 days to submit the documentation requested.

Or, let the denial come, then get all the stuff requested done and re-apply.

You’ll want a good consulting AME working with you. The current AME doesn’t seem to be doing you any favors.
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Thank you for the info. We asked the AME if we could just pull the submission and let him wait 4 yrs off meds then go the FAA fast track route instead of standard and he said no we can’t.
Any ideas on how to find a good AME to consult? We live in NE Arkansas and I only found 2 in our area so we went to one.
I found this forum trying to find HIM Neuropsychologists that I’m figuring we will end up having to see.
Just trying to figure out best path forward to give him best opportunity. I figured you guys here would know best.
I really do appreciate the advice
 
zipstah said:
Thank you for the info. We asked the AME if we could just pull the submission and let him wait 4 yrs off meds then go the FAA fast track route instead of standard and he said no we can’t….
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That part is true; once you give the confirmation number to the AME amd they opens the app, there’s no taking it back.

zipstah said:
…Just trying to figure out best path forward to give him best opportunity. I figured you guys here would know best.
I really do appreciate the advice
Click to expand...

My advice? Let the application get denied, see how your son does in the long run, and after he gets to his early 20s with successful life tests…work history/education/whatever…then re-visit the medical.

He won’t even be legal to get the Airline Transport Pilot certificate until he’s 23 anyways; no sense dropping a hundred grand on college + training program for something he might not end up wanting to do in a couple of years.
 
dans2992 said:
I feel bad for the OP, it’s a crappy situation, don’t get me wrong….

However, it’s interesting that this “surprises” so many people. If I were a teen wanting to go pro pilot, I would have already been all over this forum for years learning all I could…. But I’m a geek that way.
Click to expand...
My experience with the kid I mentored, the first day I met him: “I have an appointment to get my medical tomorrow so I can solo. I should be OK. I took Ritalin for a couple months in Jr High but it didn’t seem to do anything, so I quit. That shouldn’t be a problem.”

Two AMEs, one on this board and one local to where he was going to college worked him through the system to an unrestricted Class III.

My first introduction to the whole FAA medical was from a CFI that said, “If you can fog a mirror you can pass.”

I’m not a CFI, but if a parent or young person shows interest and asks, I tell them, “Don’t use anything THC related, don’t drink and drive, and don’t see an AME if you ever took ADD/ADHD meds until you’ve done a lot of homework.” It’s not my business to ask, but I can take the opportunity to educate. I hope more CFIs feel the same way.
 
Matthew said:
My experience with the kid I mentored, the first day I met him: “I have an appointment to get my medical tomorrow so I can solo. I should be OK. I took Ritalin for a couple months in Jr High but it didn’t seem to do anything, so I quit. That shouldn’t be a problem.”

Two AMEs, one on this board and one local to where he was going to college worked him through the system to an unrestricted Class III.

My first introduction to the whole FAA medical was from a CFI that said, “If you can fog a mirror you can pass.”

I’m not a CFI, but if a parent or young person shows interest and asks, I tell them, “Don’t use anything THC related, don’t drink and drive, and don’t see an AME if you ever took ADD/ADHD meds until you’ve done a lot of homework.” It’s not my business to ask, but I can take the opportunity to educate. I hope more CFIs feel the same way.
Click to expand...
Yeah. His instructor was like, ‘ he’s 15 the medical will be a breeze’ lol!
I’m an advanced practice nurse and I would have never thought it would be an issue with him taking that in the past as long as he’s not on them anymore and doesn’t go back on them.
But like one person above said, some kids have bad adhd so I guess I get it and should’ve thought of it.
 
Crummy situation.

I’m not surprised at all that parents, or children, are caught off guard by the ADD/ADHD pitfall. With it being so commonly “diagnosed” and with the absolute trust that most put in the medical and psychological fields, people don’t think this will present an issue that’s potentially insurmountable.

I agree you don’t want the “squirrel” distractible types in the cockpit of an airliner, but I also think those are the minority of “diagnosed” individuals and many even grow out of it.

Best of luck to the OP and his kid.
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
With it being so commonly “diagnosed” and with the absolute trust that most put in the medical and psychological fields, people don’t think this will present an issue that’s potentially insurmountable.
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I do have to say though, if anyone needs their head examined it’s the parent who purposely has their kid diagnosed so it can “help them in school”.
 
mryan75 said:
I do have to say though, if anyone needs their head examined it’s the parent who purposely has their kid diagnosed so it can “help them in school”.
Click to expand...
If you are talking about ‘this’ parent then let’s get things a little more straight. When you have kids in public school nowadays, at least where we are, if they don’t fit the mold the teachers want then you get called in to get them evaluated. In the case of my son he was bored in class so went to reading after he finished his class work and the teacher wouldn’t allow it this calling him a distraction. If a parent keeps hearing this you might second guess yourself and end up taking him in to maybe get him something to focus better in school.
I can guarantee to this is case with thousands of parents nowadays due to school faculty who want robots walking around
 
mryan75 said:
I do have to say though, if anyone needs their head examined it’s the parent who purposely has their kid diagnosed so it can “help them in school”.
Click to expand...
No arguments there. I guess it’s better than the kids trying to score adderol online and dying of fentanyl poisoning though.
 
zipstah said:
Thanks. And I get that. We were just concerned that by him being on it for the short period, been off now for 7 months, that we killed his chances of being a commercial pilot.
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I'm not a doc of any sort: FAA looks at ADD/ADHD pretty closely. But they police that by asking about medication. Adderall and Ritalin are used to treat ADD/ADHD. So if you ever got a scrip for either of those, there's a record of an ADD/ADHD diagnosis somewhere. In too many cases that's bogus. But, now you you have to prove it. So the process requires specific testing to show you don't have it, and never did.

As others have pointed out: Once the AME "opens" the medical exam by typing in that activation code, there's no stopping it. The advice that some have taken is to fill out the medical paperwork, tear off the number printed at the bottom, then contact an AME for a consult. Go through the paperwork, the whole exam, and ask as many questions as you can. Only after you are sure you will pass, then hand over the number and do it for real. It's going to cost extra, but you'll know in advance what the outcome will be.
 
zipstah said:
So my 15, soon to be 16 year old son goes in today to get his 3rd class medical. He has just got going in training and was hoping to get his license at 17. His goal to be a commercial pilot for a company.
He has previously been on ADD meds as my wife thought it would help him in school. They didn’t do anything and he has been off them now for 7 months. I did not realize the FAA stance on this. The physician today sent him for deferment and told him if he gets denied it would be for life!
My wife and I are mortified that by us getting him put on that temporarily we will now be crushing his life dream of being a commercial pilot.
Going through the whole neuropsych gamut would be super hard on a 15-16 year old I would imagine.
In you guys experience should he be able to get there, to his goal?
Thank you
Click to expand...
Forget private certificate at age 17. That’s off the table due to the time involved to resolve the medical issue and get FAA approval.

This is going to be a very expensive process because your health insurance is unlikely to cover any of it.
 
I have pts and parents of patients asking all the time about add/adhd meds. I always bring up the need for a through eval. Parent will push back and say they want a trial. I say no and recite the ramifications even of a trial on record. Use the FAA medical process and how you essentially have to spend to prove your way out. Crazy.
 
Zeldman said:
Don't know about the 70s or even present time, but in the mid/late 60s I was not taking my scholastic career seriously, so I got put on paddlin'.

And I am NOT suggesting this at all.
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In some cases (not necessarily the kind in this thread) it can work really well. In my case it was a called a B.E.L.T. For those that liked to lie, steal, or damage other people's stuff it worked very well as a preventive. While it can be said that in some cases this was over applied that doesn't mean it wasn't effective when properly administered. Seems to be hardly used anymore and I believe the results speak for themselves ... :dunno:
 
zipstah said:
If you are talking about ‘this’ parent then let’s get things a little more straight. When you have kids in public school nowadays, at least where we are, if they don’t fit the mold the teachers want then you get called in to get them evaluated. In the case of my son he was bored in class so went to reading after he finished his class work and the teacher wouldn’t allow it this calling him a distraction. If a parent keeps hearing this you might second guess yourself and end up taking him in to maybe get him something to focus better in school.
I can guarantee to this is case with thousands of parents nowadays due to school faculty who want robots walking around
Click to expand...
We were talking about this the other day. I think the kids who should be evaluated are the ones that can sit still from 7 to 3 every day. But with the knowledge out there a lot of people now go pill shopping for their kids. Heck, a lot of people go pill shopping for themselves. It’s amazing how many miraculous recoveries there are once people realize they can’t get an FAA medical.

In any event it wasn’t directed at you, just precipitated. The beautiful thing about being 15 is that you’re 15.
 
zipstah said:
I’m an advanced practice nurse and I would have never thought it would be an issue with him taking that in the past as long as he’s not on them anymore and doesn’t go back on them.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid you don't understand.

The real issue is the diagnosis behind the pills, and that diagnosis is still on the books. A person who has ADD is disqualified from holding an FAA medical certificate. In order to prescribe the pills, the doctor entered a diagnosis of ADD.

Look at this from the FAA's point of view. A licensed practicioner with a medical degree has examined your son and diagnosed him with ADD. The FAA has to take his word for that. It's going to take work to overturn that diagnosis and basically prove that doctor wrong. Just because your son is no longer taking the pills does not mean he doesn't have ADD; as far as they know, he now has untreated ADD.

The path forward is lengthy and arduous because the only way to overcome this situation is to prove to the FAA that the original doctor screwed up and misdiagnosed your son. That's going to require more doctors, tests, a history of a successful life without the meds, etc. And don't expect your son's physician to help other doctors prove that he made a mistake and put your boy on the pills, as he would essentially be proving either his own incompetence or his own guilt of malpractice.

I'm very sorry your son is in this situation. It can be overcome (assuming he doesn't actually have the condition), but it's not going to be fast or easy.

Dr. Bruce Chien ( @bbchien ) responded above. Bruce is an AME and an expert in difficult certifications like this one. You may want to contact him and enlist his help, or see if he can recommend someone in your area.

Good luck to your son!
 
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Half Fast said:
I'm afraid you don't understand.

The real issue is the diagnosis behind the pills, and that diagnosis is still on the books. A person who has ADD is disqualified from holding an FAA medical certificate. In order to prescribe the pills, the doctor entered a diagnosis of ADD.

Look at this from the FAA's point of view. A licensed practicioner with a medical degree has examined your son and diagnosed him with ADHD. The FAA has to take his word for that. It's going to take work to overturn that diagnosis and basically prove that doctor wrong. Just because your son is no longer taking the pills does not mean he doesn't have ADD; as far as they know, he now has untreated ADD.

The path forward is lengthy and arduous because the only way to overcome this situation is to prove to the FAA that the original doctor screwed up and misdiagnosed your son. That's going to require more doctors, tests, a history of a successful life without the meds, etc. And don't expect your son's physician to help other doctors prove that he made a mistake and put your boy on the pills, as he would essentially be proving either his own incompetence or his own guilt of malpractice.

I'm very sorry your son is in this situation. It can be overcome (assuming he doesn't actually have the condition), but it's not going to be fast or easy.

Dr. Bruce Chien ( @bbchien ) responded above. Bruce is an AME and an expert in difficult certifications like this one. You may want to contact him and enlist his help, or see if he can recommend someone in your area.

Good luck to your son!
Click to expand...
I do understand now. I just had never looked at it from FAA point of View. I actually have contacted Dr Bruce.
I really appreciate it!
 
Half Fast said:
:fcross:
Bruce handled my special issuance class 3, and he's helped many others over the years. He's a good guy, and if it can be done he'll get you across the finish line. Just follow his instructions to the letter.
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Thank you!
 
zipstah said:
…so I guess I get it and should’ve thought of it.
Click to expand...

Eh, don’t confuse your knowledge and experience with administrative processes. 14 CFR Part 67 regulates the medical history the FAA can certify as conforming to the law.
 
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